LGBT and religious belief

[scrupulous_stoic]

U-dog, I do think we are going a tad off-topic here. If you wish to continue this discussion, feel free to email me.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by scrupulous_stoic

U-dog, I do think we are going a tad off-topic here. If you wish to continue this discussion, feel free to email me.

You're right! but I think I'm done.

[antiochian]

In response to the original question, my beliefs are basically Christian. I was raised nominally Lutheran. As a teen I studied many religions. I focused my study on Christianity, though, and there are a LOT of Christian viewpoints and groups to study! In Sunday school our teacher took us to various churches to experience different ways of worship. Plus I have attended the Baptist church with my aunts and Christian (Dutch) Reformed with my grandma.

Jumping up and down, speaking in tongues and rolling around on the floor with a foaming mouth is not my thing. I found I liked more formal, ritualistic, "high church" worship--the smells, bells, etc.

I became Roman Catholic at 17. About a year later I began an indepth study of Eastern Christianity, particularly the Byzantine churches, both those in communion with Rome (Eastern/Greek Catholics) and the Orthodox. I began attending Sunday liturgies at a Greek Orthodox church and fell head over heels in love. The priest at the time in this parish is one of the greatest men I've had the privilege of knowing, and he remains a close friend.

Orthodox theology surprised me in that there is no belief in original sin or the atonement (the beleif that Jesus died to save us from the "wrath" of God which could only be appeased by blood--kind of gory, really, it makes God look like a vampire). There is also absent in Eastern Christianity the obsessive debate over grace v. works which exists in the West. Salvation isn't saying a sinner's prayer or perfectly following 1,118 rules, but consists in a lifetime of imitating Christ as best we can.

I also began reading the lives of various EO saints, and many of them are amazing. Two of my favorites are St. John Maximovitch of San Francisco, and St. Herman of Alaska--both missionaries, compassionate towards the poor and suffering, both were just awesome men!

I've visited two Greek Orthodox and one Bulgarian Orthodox monastery (and managed to fall in love with a monk, not good!) and planned to enter monastic life--but it didn't work out and I was down and out for a while. Looking back, maybe I'm finding my true calling now, which is to advocate for human rights, something I couldn't have done hidden away in a monastery.

The frustrating part is that Eastern Orthodoxy like the vast majority of other Christian traditions is not supportive of gay sex or gay marriage, in fact it is considered a serious sin. Hence my feeling of confusion at this point. I managed to overlook this for a long time but now that I'm coming more out of the closet, I'm considering that I may have to find a new faith to accomodate my new path. I'm considering various alternative faiths including non-Christian... but I'm afraid wherever I go, a part of my heart will remain Eastern Orthodox, as no other way of worshipping God has truly satisfied my heart and soul. I attend an Anglican church sometimes and the people are wonderful and accepting, but the worship doesn't move me in the same way. So spiritually this is a dark night of the soul for me--I don't know where to go or what to do, but I know that I can't live without faith. I believe in God most days, and in Christ. I want to believe there's a place beyond where I'll see my loved ones again.

At this point I'm keeping an open mind. I believe all faith traditions contain some truth, even if I don't agree with everything or even most of what some may teach. This post is becoming a book so forgive me, but this is my personal spiritual journey thus far, for what it's worth.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by scrupulous_stoic

"While this is true, Marcus was no friend to Christians. Christians suffered terrible martyrdoms, especially in Gaul, during the rule of Marcus."

This is...true, but also untrue. Aurelius had no direct official decrees against Christians, but local leaders found Chrisitians, especially in southern Gaul, to be scapegoats for the issues they faced. Actually, this period is when the church was increasing in size.

I'm not entirely sure about this. In Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church, the persecution under the great philosopher-king Marcus Aurelius is described this way:

"Marcus Aurelius, the philosopher on the throne, was a well-educated, just, kind, and amiable emperor, and reached the old Roman ideal of self-reliant Stoic virtue, but for this very reason he had no sympathy with Christianity, and probably regarded it as an absurd and fanatical superstition. He had no room in his cosmopolitan philanthropy for the purest and most innocent of his subjects, many of whom served in his own army. He was flooded with apologies of Melito, Miltiades, Athenagoras in behalf of the persecuted Christians, but turned a deaf ear to them. Only once, in his Meditations, does he allude to them, and then with scorn, tracing their noble enthusiasm for martyrdom to "sheer obstinacy" and love for theatrical display. His excuse is ignorance. He probably never read a line of the New Testament, nor of the apologies addressed to him.

Belonging to the later Stoical school, which believed in an immediate absorption after death into the Divine essence, he considered the Christian doctrine of the immortality of the soul, with its moral consequences, as vicious and dangerous to the welfare of the state. A law was passed under his reign, punishing every one with exile who should endeavor to influence people's mind by fear of the Divinity, and this law was, no doubt, aimed at the Christians. At all events his reign was a stormy time for the church, although the persecutions cannot be directly traced to him. The law of Trajan was sufficient to justify the severest measures against the followers of the "forbidden" religion."

Philip Schaff, "Persecutions under Marcus Aurelius. a.d. 161–180." History of the Christian Church, 2.2.20.

[scrupulous_stoic]

Originally Posted by antonyh

I'm not entirely sure about this. In Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church, the persecution under the great philosopher-king Marcus Aurelius is described this way:



Philip Schaff, "Persecutions under Marcus Aurelius. a.d. 161–180." History of the Christian Church, 2.2.20.

I hope my email clarified what i meant

[Pablo Rafael]

Originally Posted by antiochian

The frustrating part is that Eastern Orthodoxy like the vast majority of other Christian traditions is not supportive of gay sex or gay marriage, in fact it is considered a serious sin. Hence my feeling of confusion at this point. I managed to overlook this for a long time but now that I'm coming more out of the closet, I'm considering that I may have to find a new faith to accomodate my new path. I'm considering various alternative faiths including non-Christian... but I'm afraid wherever I go, a part of my heart will remain Eastern Orthodox, as no other way of worshipping God has truly satisfied my heart and soul. I attend an Anglican church sometimes and the people are wonderful and accepting, but the worship doesn't move me in the same way. So spiritually this is a dark night of the soul for me--I don't know where to go or what to do, but I know that I can't live without faith. I believe in God most days, and in Christ. I want to believe there's a place beyond where I'll see my loved ones again.

You raise a good point. I think this is an issue that a lot of us face: How to worship in a church that is non-affirming. Being in the Roman Catholic church (though not as anti-gay as many denominations) leaves me also with religious tension. I love the worship and reverence of the Catholic church. I would be lost without a church home. I personally think that being in the church will effect change faster than leaving it. I think we are the generation that is going to start to turn the tide of ant-gay bigotry in the church. Like those brave people of the 1950's and 60's who refused to leave the lunch counter or move to the back of the bus, I think we are the pioneers in Christian churches who can begin to move the church and society to a greater understanding.

I also like to remember that in church I worship the Lord. The church itself has its flaws, but the love of God is perfect. In church I feel a special closeness to God.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Daniel]

Antiochian- Do you know of Axios, the gay affirming Orthodox Christian organization? The march in the Gay Parade here in NYC every year. They may be of some help to you in your search for a church home.

http://www.eskimo.com/~nickz/axios.html

[antiochian]

Pablo, you're right. The Church is itself imperfect and I understand those who feel called to stay in shall I say unenlightened churches hoping/working for change. At the same time, I don't want to be part of a group that is constantly whispering, "Sin, sin, sin!" over my shoulder. The MCC is another option, of course. The one in my area is very small, less than 10 people, and again the people are great but the worship leaves me empty...

Daniel, thanks for reminding me of Axios! Yes, I guess it's kind of similar to Catholicism's "Dignity" and Anglicanism's "Integrity." Last time I subscribed to their online forum it was almost completely inactive. So are most Dignity and Integrity forums, for that matter, not enough people. But it's worth another look!

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by antiochian

Last time I subscribed to their online forum it was almost completely inactive. So are most Dignity and Integrity forums, for that matter, not enough people. But it's worth another look!

Hmmmmm. I'm sorry to hear the online forum is rather inactive.

You know, I have a friend who entered a brotherhood here in Manhattan some years back (under the auspices of the Orthodox Cathedral on the lower East Side). He's gay. It may simply be this particular urban area, but I had the sense that there are Orthodox congregations that are welcoming. As in all things, I guess this would depend on the leadership.

In the spirit of this thread, I should say something about my own journey.

I grew up Hungarian Reformed, which has it's roots in the ideas of Luther. However, as an adolescent, I was swept up in Pentacostalism, staying with The Assemblies of God faith- even going to an AG College- until my late 20's when I came out, at which point I felt somewhat dumped to the curb.

It took me a while to figure out that God didn't condemn me. And a big step in that direction was reading John Boswell's tome Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality. This book, more than any other, opened my eyes, and I credit it with saving my life. Well...mostly. Having a boyfriend helped too, convincing me that love- actual love- was only important, but an imperative.

In those early years after coming out, I investgated other Paths, Eastern Orthodoxy among them, read the Desert Fathers, the Gnostics, learned how to meditate, studied A Course in Miracles, before finally concentrating on Buddhism, where my daily practice is now centered.

If asked, I tell people, half-jokingly, half-seriously, that I am an openly gay/closeted Buddhist.

One thing I like about Buddhism is that it is more concerned with practice than belief, which, as a musician, makes a great deal of sense to me. (One doesn't benefit from talking about 'scales', as much as by shutting up, sitting down, and playing them.) It also has a deep resonance with psychology; while Christianity could be thought as focusing on the soul, Buddhism gives greater attention to the workings of the mind. I find this very compelling.

Music has been a part of my life for as long as I can remember, which I consider a spiritual endeavor, both having as their impetus the desire to realize something greater than one's self. It's the hub around which everthing else in my life resolves.

[BenL]

Originally Posted by antiochian

Daniel, thanks for reminding me of Axios! Yes, I guess it's kind of similar to Catholicism's "Dignity" and Anglicanism's "Integrity." Last time I subscribed to their online forum it was almost completely inactive. So are most Dignity and Integrity forums, for that matter, not enough people. But it's worth another look!

I agree that the Integrity home page is kind of static, but Walking With Integrity, Integrity's blog, is quite active. I find it an invaluable source of news and commentary on things queer and Anglican/Episcopal.

[iowan woman]

Scrupulous Stoic, you wrote: "I also feel the Buddha and Jesus differed in the areas that matter most to religion."

I don't know much about Buddhism, in fact this whole thread is smarter than me.

Other than culture, time period, personal history (Jesus obviously loved his own ethnic/religious group with all his heart) how was Jesus so different in a way that matters the most to religion? Or did you mean Christianity, which is a separate issue. The books in "The Bible" are not the only books that were written about him and his group. Elaine Pagels "Gnostic Gosples" uncovers other ancient texts that I wish "The Church" would let in. While Jesus could not have met Buddha as Buddha, he did have...

Wow. I just got a slap in da face. I wanted to read this thread a bit closer and came across this, and I quote:


"""Jumping up and down, speaking in tongues and rolling around on the floor with a foaming mouth is not my thing. I found I liked more formal, ritualistic, "high church" worship--the smells, bells, etc."""

I am angry with the branch of my home church for...I am...My home church is The Assemby Of God Church and I am angry at them but that quote was mean.

[scrupulous_stoic]

"how was Jesus so different in a way that matters the most to religion?"

Among other things, salvation.


In the New Testament, there is a notion that salvation comes from belief in Jesus Christ as well as God (John 3:16, Romans 5:8, Romans 6:23, Mark 16:16*). For one to be saved, one must believe in Christ, as well as good works. However, in Buddha's sermons, one may attain salvation, which in this case is nirvana, by personal means alone, which may include adherence to the Eightfold Path, and focus on the Four Nobel Truths. There is no savior but oneself. This has been misinterpretted by some in the West to relate to hedonism, but, again, the Eightfold Path restrains exhuberent passion. This has also changed in Mahayana Buddhism, which sees bodhisattvas as savior figures.

Granted, there are similar teachings and aphorisms that cannot be ignored.

"The books in "The Bible" are not the only books that were written about him and his group."

I am fully aware of these writings, and have read some during my free time.

*mentions baptism as well.

[antiochian]

Iowan, I certainly did not mean to offend and I apologize. Making fun of other's beliefs and practices ain't cool and I was wrong. I was venting my anger towards the majority of Pentecostals who are virulently homophobic without considering that there are people who are not like that but find meaning in the charismatic experience. What one calls crazy or weird another may find very meaningful. For instance, I've venerated and kissed bones (relics) of saints. Some call it idolatry or necrophilia and can't comprehend doing that which for me is simply a part of what I believe. I'll be more considerate from now on.

Stoic, I heard a lecture on Greek philosophy in world civ. class last week, so I understand a little of what you've been talking about now. Very neat stuff. Buddhism has some beautiful teachings as well. I'm just not completely sure on reincarnation.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by antiochian

I'm just not completely sure on reincarnation.

I am the same way about reincarnation. I like Buddhism as a philosophy without the metaphysical aspects. One western teacher that expounds this is Stephen Bachelor who wrote Buddhism without Beliefs.

I can appreciate the idea of Karma and Reincarnation and how that contributes to the Buddhist understanding of liberation from suffering without embracing these ideas as reality.

[scrupulous_stoic]

I always thought of an afterlife like that in the movie "What Dreams May Come" with Robin Williams. Then again, I am a person who at times find it hard to decide on things, so that might be why.

[iowan woman]

Antiochian,

Thanks for your apology. When I read your description of Pentecostals I had to stop and think about how I express my anger as well, I had to stop and think about how I am maybe offensive every day that I open my mouth.

I have maybe said the very same thing about Pentecostals, if I am being honest, because they make me so mad. Being one myself, having been baptized in the Holy Spirit and having been dunked in a tank and having sat through many sermons that twenty years later I still remember, and even as of yet moving my soul in the same cringe that began seated in church or over coffee with another member who was embellishing on what is inferred from sermons from the pulpit when you call homosexuality a sin or when you make jokes about folks of other faith doing it wrong or when you say that only Jesus offers the way in - did he say that himself or did those words get scrambled up the road of writing - I know something about the supernatural that is as ancient as the practice of kissing bones. I don't understand why G-D would rain this gift on a group of people who are so stuborn in holding onto beliefs that hurt other people. I understand your anger and thank you for being so willing to apologize. Maybe as a group they will someday apologize to you.

I am a straight Pentecostal woman who is sorry on their behalf, that is the best I can do for now. I pray daily for an awakening in the church. Can you imagine what could happen across the globe if the people who made up the church would wake up to their ugly and use their resources to really help people who are in need? Salvation as an earthen matter. I used to go to these Pentecostal meetings when i was a kid, huge numbers of teens gathered from all over the state in auditoriums singing and listening to preachers. Imagine that army moving through a depressed community. I know this happens, but what if it were the norm? In a day or in a month, imagine the lives improved.

Antiochian, I too am a poet in awe of the Holy. I dance in the spirit before my poster of Martin Luther King Jr. and Princess Diana and then I turn and dance before the poster of a native American and John Lenon, then I turn and dance in prayer before other articals of faith and a collage of book covers pinned on my wall: Professor Howard Zinns bookcover, Passionate Declarations: Essays On War And Justice, is pinned to the top of my certificate of Baptism, which hangs under a cover about the Jewish Kabbalah - so I think I am weirder than anyone I have heard of and maybe I do foam at the mouth but when I get on the floor, I don't roll. Maybe if there were more room where I dance I would, but only if the form of dance were esthetically pleasing to me. I am rather a snob about form.


Jesus and Buddha and salvation. Salvation is an earthen matter that we need to attend to, and here I am full of sorrow that my spiritual home turns out Bible tossers instead of people who do practicle work that might save a kid in Afghanistan from death.

There is evidence from ancient texts that were discarded and are being found and translated that many of the early Christians were groups of women. There are texts that describe Jesus as a mystic, there are texts that raise the possibility that Mary Magdalene was a mystic from Africa. So they are not what we call the Bible, they contain information of a tradition that has many faucets of expression. History is still being excavated; it is exciting to imagine what we will learn if we keep an open mind. If Jesus really did say he was the only way to G-D, maybe those texts would tell us why.

And maybe Jesus did spend time with Buddha in an esoteric way.

The Bible has not been written to completion.


This thread is very interesting; it makes me want to go back to college.

iowanwoman

[scrupulous_stoic]

"Jesus and Buddha and salvation. Salvation is an earthen matter that we need to attend to, and here I am full of sorrow that my spiritual home turns out Bible tossers instead of people who do practicle work that might save a kid in Afghanistan from death."

I am having difficulty what you are trying to convey here. Can you reiterate?
Sorry, I'm a little brain-dead at the moment.

[iowan woman]

Scrupulous Stoic, there is nothing wrong with your brain, I have read some of your posts and you are a very smart person, much smarter than I can ever hope to be; my writing was very unclear (and full of spelling errors!)

I first responded to Antiochian and then responded to you, which is maybe part of what was confusing about my post. Antiochian wrote about the cruelty of Fundamentalist Christians and I agreed and one of the points I find that breeds intolerance and hate is around the idea of salvation. You wrote that Jesus and Buddha differed in ways that matter the most to religion around the point of salvation and so one thought flowed into the next. Sorry, I am often sloppy.

I am trying to convey that I think the concept of salvation is something we can help give each other, in the spirit of Jesus, in the spirit of other great leaders who have used their lives as an example of what is possible if we reach out to each other in love. I also think that as we learn more about ancient history through the excavation and translation of ancient texts we might find a whole different...I am not educated enough to go into this topic and my brain is mush.

iowanwoman

[scrupulous_stoic]

I got the first part. I just was confused about the other part. Thank you!

[iowan woman]

Antiochian,

In a glance back at my response to your apology I think I was offensive. I am sorry. I did not express myself well.

Thank you again.

iowanwoman