Homosexuals In Heaven?

[AJLove]

removed by moderator

[BruceChris]

AJ: I am sure that there are many more articulate answers than mine, but as for me, I find much more wisdom in doing my best to help spread God's love, than to spend all of my time talking, or worrying about sin.

Edit: ESPECIALLY someone elses.


Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[antiochian]

AJ, I didn't see what you posted above, since it was removed (and undoubtedly for a good reason), but I will say one thing: NO ONE has any business judging who goes to heaven. That is the almighty's job. Period.

[Pablo Rafael]

AJ,

Not having seen the original link I just have to comment on the title. I am sure of one homosexual who will be in heaven -me. Of that much I am certain.

I believe that the grace and love of God works faith in the hearts of all those who do not reject God's love. It does not matter who I am or what I have done. Christ's death and resurrection has secured me a place in heaven. Now it is up to me to live a life that shows some of that love to others.

It seems ironic that so much of conservative Christianity preaches the grace of God to all but then turns around and says that homosexuals are denied that grace. I know that I have been forgiven for many sins. Each day I fall short of God's ideal. However, being gay isn't one of those sins; I am more and more convinced that it is God's gift and his plan for me.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[u-dog]

AJ,

Try a little experiment. You are a gay man. Thats not going to change. You believe in the love of Jesus and his power to save. I HOPE that that will not change either. So lie down in a quiet darkened room, close your eyes and imagine yourself: A young gay man coming into the presence of Jesus. what do you imagine yourself WANTING to say to Jesus? say it to him. What do you imagine him saying to you? Allow the conversation to unfold in your mind for a while. Talk to him about what it means to you to be gay. Talk to him about what you LONG for in your life. About the person you imagine being with and the life you would want to have with that man. Ask him what he thinks. If the imaginary Jesus has a negative response, ask him to clarify. Aski him why you are gay if its not ok to love as a gay man. Ask him what he wants you to do in the world as a gay man. Ask him if he will continue to love you if you are gay.

In other words... "come out" to Jesus and see how he leads you.

Do this exercise regularly as you encounter challenges from people in the church.

This is Just a suggestion. I hope it helps you to silence the many chattering outer voices so that you can hear the two most important INNER voices -- yours and Jesus'

[RedneckDyke]

One time I took a medicine that I had bad reaction to and I stopped breathing. I laid there and I felt myself stretching and then I saw my GRanny there next to me. GRanny had been dead a couple years.
Now, there are fewer people more christian than my Granny. So I KNOW she is in heaven. Now, if my Granny came to fetch me I figure I'm going to heaven as well.

[AJLove]

I recall in the article where it said that you may be born gay but you still have free will and you can rid of this sin or change yourself.

[u-dog]

AJ,

You are a human being with free will. Does that mean that you are free to become a giraffe? You are what you are. And God loves you. He loves you enough to die on a cross for you. Your only decision now is how you are going live in order to glorify him and to give thanks to him for your creation and your redemption.

How does a gay man do that? By second guessing God and telling him how it was all a big mistake and you don't wanna be gay and you'ld rather be a straight boy? does that glorify God?

You are designed to love another man. How do you love another man in a way that glorifies God? you COULD live celibately (without sex) and love other men as friends IF you are gifted by the Holy SPirit with the GIFT of celibacy. if you DON'T have the gift of celibacy ... or if you only have it for a time... then you cannot glorify God by using a gift he hasn't given you.

You could get involved with a woman, pretend to be straight, get married and hope that it will change and you will be straight. I tried that. And while I ended up being married to a wonderful woman and making and raising babies with her... It didn't change the fact that I'm gay. And it caused us both a lot of pain and sorrow over the years. As much as I love and treasure Polly and as much as she loves me ... I don't recommend this for you. Mostly people get divorced, children lose their parent and lives are wrecked.

If, like MOST people, you need to be sexually and emotionally connected to a person that you love ... then that person is going to need to be a man because you are gay. How do you love another man in a way that glorifies God... Same way a straight man glorifies God by loving a woman. Put his needs before yours, be honest and transparent, share joy and sorrow, be there for each other in hard times, express your love often and openly... have sex ONLY with him and only in ways that both of you enjoy Never use each other as sexual objects but love deeply the whole person. This is how a gay man honors God with his sexuality.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by AJLove

I recall in the article where it said that you may be born gay but you still have free will and you can rid of this sin or change yourself.

You'll hear a lot of that, yeah. There's more than a few of us here who tried that, AJ. I used to be part of the so-called "ex-gay" movement, and I kick myself regularly for the load of crap I helped foist on myself and other gay Christians. I never changed a bit. Can we can change our behavior? Can we can starve ourselves of love and companionship for our whole lives? Sure. Does God want us to? I doubt it. When it came "tumble time" for my lifelong bias against my own sexuality, the scripture that wouldn't get out of my head wasn't one of those "clobber" passages I'd quoted and had quoted at me ... it was God's very first time saying something wasn't good: "It is not good for the man to be alone." We are made for relationship.

People will try to sell you on the line that people are inclined to a lot of things that are bad and have to be avoided: alcoholism, stealing, blah, blah, blah ... but the fact is, those things have nothing to do with God's design for us. God did not create us to drink. He didn't create us to steal. He created us to love. And some of us, for reasons known only to Himself, he created to love others of our own gender.

Can I "white knuckle" my way through life to do things the way one narrow part of the church says I should? Yeah, I can. I know I can, because I did for 37 years. And I never had peace. I always hated this part of me, until I learned to accept that this part of me was what God meant when He looked at me down through the ages and said, "It is not good for the man to be alone." He knew what he was talking about. Professor Gagnon, and others like him (I don't know if this was his article you're referring to, but I remember him being mentioned in one of our recent conversations) doesn't know what he is talking about. Or what He (God) is talking about! The gospel isn't about "DON'T!"

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by u-dog

AJ,

Try a little experiment. You are a gay man. Thats not going to change. You believe in the love of Jesus and his power to save. I HOPE that that will not change either. So lie down in a quiet darkened room, close your eyes and imagine yourself: A young gay man coming into the presence of Jesus. what do you imagine yourself WANTING to say to Jesus? say it to him. What do you imagine him saying to you? Allow the conversation to unfold in your mind for a while. Talk to him about what it means to you to be gay. Talk to him about what you LONG for in your life. About the person you imagine being with and the life you would want to have with that man. Ask him what he thinks. If the imaginary Jesus has a negative response, ask him to clarify. Aski him why you are gay if its not ok to love as a gay man. Ask him what he wants you to do in the world as a gay man. Ask him if he will continue to love you if you are gay.

In other words... "come out" to Jesus and see how he leads you.

Do this exercise regularly as you encounter challenges from people in the church.

This is Just a suggestion. I hope it helps you to silence the many chattering outer voices so that you can hear the two most important INNER voices -- yours and Jesus'

By the way, this is a FANTASTIC idea (but don't tell U-Dog I said so!).

[Pablo Rafael]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

People will try to sell you on the line that people are inclined to a lot of things that are bad and have to be avoided: alcoholism, stealing, blah, blah, blah ... but the fact is, those things have nothing to do with God's design for us. God did not create us to drink. He didn't create us to steal. He created us to love. And some of us, for reasons known only to Himself, he created to love others of our own gender.

AJ,

This is one of the best statements I have ever heard on this topic. I hear homosexuality compared to alcoholism often. I have used that comparison in the past myself, I am ashamed to admit. It is an unbiblical comparison. The two things aren't comparable.

I also have spent most of my life fighting against being gay. God had to hit me over the head and get me to stop doing that. I am firmly convinced that being gay is what God wants for me. Loving others is not a sin. A sin is what separates us from God and causes harm to others. I personally have a much closer relationship with God and a much healthier view of sexuality now that I have come to grips with being gay. Now that I have stopped beating myself up; I can get on with being the person that God made me to be. I am more at ease with myself, and just being honest and not having to cover my sexuality up is taking a great weight off of me. (I'm still in the process.)

Yes, I think there can be sin involved with homosexuality just like there can be sin in heterosexual relations. But that sin is when we hurt others or use others; It is when we seek gain for ourselves. It is not when we love others. Love is from God. I believe that romantic love is a part of God's plan for humankind. For me that is with another guy; it won't work any other way. And it's not a bad thing.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[iowan woman]

Heaven is a metaphor. If one looks at the string of books grouped together into what is referred to as The Bible we see an evolution of ideas. Why do people think G-D stopped talking and that the evolution of ideas reached a climax almost 2 millennia ago?

Heaven. There are many holes in this reply; I realize that. I believe in heaven and hell, but I think they are concepts that are meant to teach us something about how to live. I believe they are metaphorical in meaning.

The Bible is literature. Literature at its best makes use of metaphor to move the story forward. Inspired literature reveals aspects of Holy, but please. The Bible is still unfolding.

But to the question of whether a gay individual can go to heaven...gay and straight folks need to unite for that to happen. We need to make this a world where kids who are coming into adulthood don't have to fear the realization that they are gay.

When every state in this country recognizes gay marriage, when preachers stop calling homosexuality a sin and thereby passively or actively encouraging acts of violence in the form of gay bashing, when gay folks are sitting at tables with straight folks for reasons that transcend the need for change, then we will have banished a corner of hell.

I find when people read me they mostly misunderstand what I have written so I should state that I believe when we die our souls glide right back into eternity and that heaven is an earthen ideal that is within our power to create, even in small slices.

The people who are saying that gay folks can't get into heaven are emotionally and intellectually immature, I don't care how many PhD's they can place behind their names.

[dsdrane]

...to my mind, is this question:

Are people pushing ex-gay "ministries" or the "homosexuality-is-a-sin" crowd going to heaven?

Only God can answer this, of course...but I'm pretty damn sure God will take them to task in one way or another for their stupidity, arrogance, and the crimes they committed in His name.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

...to my mind, is this question:

Are people pushing ex-gay "ministries" or the "homosexuality-is-a-sin" crowd going to heaven?

Only God can answer this, of course...but I'm pretty damn sure God will take them to task in one way or another for their stupidity, arrogance, and the crimes they committed in His name.

my image or fantasy is that they will have to stand before the throne and experience first hand the suffering of every single glbt child and adolescent whose beautful shining spirit they tried to crush with their self serving poison. This will not be eternal punishment or damnation... but IT WILL SEEM LIKE IT ... because standing there in the presence of Jesus THEY WILL BE SO ASHAMED. Then, being Jesus, he'll hug them and let them into heaven too.

[iowan woman]

I agree with the last two entries in this string but what if...what if...what if...the concept of heaven is a metaphor to teach us how to live?

What if our mean behavior to one person creates a living hell for that person? Then a more important point is how we treat each other on earth. Let's be part of pulling down a slice of heaven where ever we go (though I do not advocate slapping yourself against people who will hurt you; some earthen hells are not our hells to directly conquer). If we play the same game that cruel people play how to we evolve as a species? You're going to hell, no you're going to hell! No you're going to hell!

Spin out of this. Someone come up with some solutions to change this dialogue that continues to circle hell. There are some very smart people in this forum, lets use this power to bat around ideas we can take out into the world, into the communities we live in, instead of trying to one up folks who are comfortable being mean.

iowan woman

[BruceChris]

I just got back from a PFLAG meeting, where the featured speakers were the Catholic father-daughter team that wrote "Are there Closets in Heaven"?

A young lady who grew up in the Catholic Church, on a farm in Iowa, talked about growing up, going away to school, chosing a life partner, deciding to have a family, being 3 months pregnant when she came out to her father (and telling him all about her "roommate"), climbing the corporate ladder while having more babies and also coming out at work.....

Boy, this lady really knows how to juggle hot potatoes while multi-tasking, skipping rope and chewing gum.

If any of you ever get a chance to see her and her family, don't miss it.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Unmasked]

I definitely agree on the metaphorical part, but I think that there is an afterlife, and I think that the Paradise that Jesus talked about does await us after we pass from this life. I'm not sure what I think about who is in or out, but I think that it's important to live in love and to let the rest take care of itself.

Wow, U-Dog...that's deep man. That's almost more frightening than the Hell that a lot of preachers talk about. Seeing and feeling every bit of suffering that you caused to somebody...wow...

[sailaway58]

I think in heaven there will be no need to be identified as anything but forgiven. I don't believe sex or sexual preference will even come up. When we stand in the presence of God fully seeing, fully understanding, fully experiencing his love, all old things will be truly pass away. No longer seeing Him through a dim glass. Your former oppressors will see clearly as well and love will endure.

[Ubuntu]

I'm not a Christian, and therefore don't have the same ideas on the afterlife as those who are. However, when I read the title of this thread immediately what popped into my head was the Reliant K song 'Failure to Excommunicate'.
It's a very good song speaking on how it doesn't matter what anyone else believes, or how people judge you or anything, it doesn't matter because your Christ loves you-- "Jesus loves the outcasts. He loves the ones the world just loves to hate. And as long as there's a Heaven, there'll be a failure to excommunicate".
Even as a non-Christian (though I do hold a lot of Christian beliefs) I think that the song has a beautiful message.

So, if the Christian Heaven is how it goes down-- I'm pretty damn sure that the homosexuals will be delightful in your god's eyes.