Anger

[antiochian]

I have a confession to make, and it's a hard one. I rarely attend worship or pray anymore, not that that's a prerequisite for being spiritual. And when I post I often talk about the love of God, so it makes it all the crazier that I could think like this.

I came to realize that I actually hate God. Being angry at God isn't a strong enough description of what I feel--I feel hatred. It comes and goes. When I talked to a priest last summer, I told him I could care less if I go to hell. I'm mad that he instituted churches that have all of these rules that people can't possibly keep. I'm mad that I have this attachment to such a church which by its doctrines on sexuality stifles my autonomy and pride as a gay man. I'm mad that God would allow people to supposedly burn in a place of torture for eternity. I really do hate God, and I don't know if there's anything you can do or say to change that. I'm sure you will all agree that though people can help or guide us along the way, each person's soul work is her or his own job.

Part of me hesitates to post this because I don't want people to think poorly of me, as many (though not all) are dedicated Christians. Whatever people think, this is how I feel and it scares me.

I've believed for some time that I'm one of the damned, and there's nothing I can do about it. That too scares me.

[sailaway58]

I think it is okay to hate God sometimes. I have felt similar before.
God can handle it. Just don't stop here. Be open to new ideas about God that might soften your heart. The only God we really see is what we see in others and from what I see at this site there is plenty of reason to have hope.
Your feelings don't change the way God views you.

[Daniel]

a thing to mention, but I had this kind of anger years ago. And it was only when I started working (internally then externally) on my relationship with my father that I started to unravel the knot in my gut. I found out that I was projecting on to God my own experience of 'father', and that earthly relationship had not been a great one.

They don't call it Patriarchy for nothing. It's a top-down, trust and obey, smack- this is going to hurt me more than you- dynamic. And getting out from underneath the weight of that isn't easy for any of us. It's like we have to experience our anger in all its fullness to come to terms with what has happened to us. And if we've been the recipient of another person's anger.....had it dumped on us when we coudldn't speak up for ourselves....well...we're bound to wake up really pissed off some day.

My own experience is that, if one stays with anger- sits with it- long enough, other emotions and feelings start coming up eventually. And that's a good thing. All too often anger is what is keeping a lid on things. That said, it can be a great motivator for some people as long as it doesn't eat them alive. Playing with fire can be dangerous after all. And anger is like a fire.

[Steven E. Webster]

Antiochian,

Just a quick reply for now, without reading others' replies:

I think anger can be a very healthy thing. There is nothing wrong with being angry with God.

Anger can also be not healthy--it all depends. Anger can also be mis-directed. For instance, I wouldn't blame God for the institutional church---human beings have mucked that up.

More later

Steven Webster

[BrentRichards]

Simply put, I never had a worthwhile friend that I didn't enter into the occasional blazing angry battle with... so...

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by antiochian

I have a confession to make, and it's a hard one. I rarely attend worship or pray anymore, not that that's a prerequisite for being spiritual. And when I post I often talk about the love of God, so it makes it all the crazier that I could think like this.

I came to realize that I actually hate God. Being angry at God isn't a strong enough description of what I feel--I feel hatred. It comes and goes. When I talked to a priest last summer, I told him I could care less if I go to hell. I'm mad that he instituted churches that have all of these rules that people can't possibly keep. I'm mad that I have this attachment to such a church which by its doctrines on sexuality stifles my autonomy and pride as a gay man. I'm mad that God would allow people to supposedly burn in a place of torture for eternity. I really do hate God, and I don't know if there's anything you can do or say to change that. I'm sure you will all agree that though people can help or guide us along the way, each person's soul work is her or his own job.

Part of me hesitates to post this because I don't want people to think poorly of me, as many (though not all) are dedicated Christians. Whatever people think, this is how I feel and it scares me.

I've believed for some time that I'm one of the damned, and there's nothing I can do about it. That too scares me.

Shalom Auslander recently published Foreskin's Lament: A Memoir. It is about his hatred of God (and inability to get away from God) coming from an Orthodox Jewish background. You can see a video introduction to the book here at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Foreskins-Lame.../dp/1594489556

When I read your entry, it reminded me of many of the Psalms where the authors rail against God. This is part of spirituality, but is often missing from our liturgy and prayer. Just a thought.

I just noticed that u-dog made a similar point...

[scott snedeker]

I think you really really really need to attend a Faerie gathering!!!

[antiochian]

Thanks everyone--I feel like I took a big load off my shoulders! Scott- I really really really want to go to a Faerie gathering!

[iowan woman]

Antiochian,

The comments back to you have been full of wisdom and compassion; I can't add to that but I did want to let you know that your sharing your anger at G-D was helpful to me.

I am having a hard time right now in my life; when I read a post like yours - and I have read many of your posts and find you, in type at this side of a screne, a very likable person - it makes my own relationship with G-D more real to me.


If you have been venting your anger at G-D, that is prayer too. If you have not, then you should. Like Antonyh wrote, the Psalms are laments against G-D, injustice, etc.
I remember you wrote somewhere that you are a poet. Are you catching any of this poetically?

I am angry at G-D too. Angry and sad and sometimes bitter. I know it is a stage in my growth.

Thanks to all of you who answered Antiochian with lessons learned from your own life; this whole thread has been very helpful to me.

Maybe tonight instead of yelling or snarling at G-D as I ready for bed I will sing happy. But still, it is nice to imagine that when I am angry at what people do to each other in the name of following asinine rules, G-D cries along with me.
Your anger, Antiochian, means that you care about people, that you have depth, and that your relationship with G-D is very real.

iowanwoman

[Pablo Rafael]

Jeff,

I don't know if it is proper to say that I am glad someone else feels this way or not, but it is reassuring to know that others have had some of the same difficulties I have had.

I wouldn't say I have ever "hated" God, but I have certainly been angry and frustrated. I went through a time after a family crisis that I wouldn't read the Bible or pray for over a year because I was upset with God. But strangely even during that angry time I still knew God loved me. I don't know how those conflicting emotions coexist, but somehow they did.

I also had a lot of anger towards God for making me gay. I didn't understand why he had afflicted me with this, and he never seemed to answer. Now I realize that it was my own narrowness and stubborness that had kept me from realizing that being gay wasn't a curse, but part of his plan for me.

I have to continually keep in mind that the church is not God and churches do not speak for him. Those who call themselves "Christian" are also not God. I get angry at the loveless things that people who claim to speak for God say and do; I remind myself that it isn't God who is behind them.

My favorite Biblical character is Jeremiah. He was very angry with God. He even refused to speak God's message. He just told God he wouldn't do it anymore. It was a long period of time that he refused to cooperate and remained angry. Yet God was patient and waited for him without condemnation; I don't think anger bothers God at all. I think he is always ready to listen and always understands how we feel.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Vanessa White]

Hey: As I am reading your post this morning, and all of the responses, I am wanting to heartily agree with all that has been said, but I also want to acknowledge that Antiochian, it took a lot of courage to bring this here, taking a risk, not knowing what the response would be. I mean, I knew what the response would be, knowing my friends around here, one of compassion, guidance, and identifying with your experience. Besides facing your concern about bringing it to the forums, you also are helping others of us here to put a name to some similar experiences.

One of the reasons why you are meant to be here with us. Embrace those lessons and keep loving yourself......

[pnggrad79]

Antiochan,
I think,, and this is just my opinion, that your anger is more at the representations of God that have purveyed upon you rather than upon God himself. These people who have painted pictures of God and who He is have WRONGLY portrayed him and you have every right to be angry and resentful toward that God but I must say that is not the God of the Bible, which is far cry from what the church today presents Him as. The church historically neither presents God as loving, merciful, ever present, nor forgiving, but rather, vengeful, murderous, wrathful, tempermental, and judgmental. They have painted him with their paintbrushes of prejudice, fear, and humanness, and that is so far from the true God it is just a fabrication at best.
Please don't look at your priest or any other person as what you think God is or should be, rather read your Bible and discover for yourself who God is, and feel free to be angry with Him, but also feel free to fall in love with Him as you get to know Him unlike anything else you have ever known.
If you ever get a chance to read The Ragamuffin Gospel by Brennan Manning, I think it will do you some good. It might offer you some insight and give you a different perspective. Someone somewhere along the way has fed you a load of crap and painted an ugly, misshapen, distorted picture of God that is nowhere near the truth. You aren't seeing the real God. You are seeing a made-up God that someone, who really doesn't know Him themselves, made up for you.
God is bigger than your anger and He loves you in spite of it, because of it and through it. Seek Him through your anger and let him show himself to you. He wants you to know Him as he is for who he is and not for what the world has made him to be.

[iowan woman]

G-D is not a he.
Grrrr.
Grrrr.
I would prefer it if G-D WERE a he cuz I am scared of women, with good reason backtracking across my life.

I imagine G-D is angry for the same reasons that Antiochian listed. Not angry in a vengeful way but angry in a way to light a fire under people like Antiochian to help make things in this world different, one person at a time.

But everything else Pnggrd79 said is true too - our model of G-D is very destructive. Our model of G-D is predominately hostile and unloving. I am not arguing with that, only that anger can be constructive. Anger can be a force for change.

I am angry with Christians, for many reasons but here is a weekly occurrence: I am a food server. I hate Sundays, most of the people I have worked with hate Sundays because Christians, and I can see the faces of those who don't fit this rule very clearly because they are such a contrast - Christians are the most irreverent, unloving, mean group of people to wait on when they are done with church. I always know how low I am on Sundays. Always. I know they think I am less human than they are; they won't look me in the face, many are flat out rude and condescending, they leave me the kind of tip that says they don't care that they are exploiting me (I make 3.25 an hour, up from 2.13) and they have no patience when they come in all together and create a surge of tickets to the kitchen all at once. It is 115 (it can be up to) degrees in the kitchen, the cooks are amazing and efficient but they are human. (Where I worked before they were never allowed off the line for breaks until they had clocked out at days end). The Christians get really mean then, they want you to know you have ruined their day because their food took 10 minutes more than it should have. It seems very corrupt to me.


Some Sundays I leave work and want to drive my car off the world.

[pnggrad79]

Iowan,
I only refer to God as a He because that is how the Bible refers to him. In addition to that, Jesus was a he, by all accounts. Sorry if that offends you. Actually, I believe God is both male and female. If God were only male, there would be only males created, because God created us in his image, so....

I just believe that a lot of what we grew up with to believe about God is load of crap, and that he is not this big monster in the sky ready to "smite" someone for screwing up. I believe that people since Christ have screwed up the message of Christ ROYALLY, and made it to be and mean something totally opposite of what God intended for it to be.

But that is MY perception of God and I told Antiochan that. Please don't criticize my perceptions and opinions! I was offering them to him, to try to help. If they don't help you, I am very sorry. They weren't directed at you.

[iowan woman]

pnggrad

The grrr part was meant to be playful. I agreed with what you said.

I will keep my perceptions to myself. I am so very sorry to have intruded.

[Pablo Rafael]

I am always uncomfortable using "He" for God when writing my posts.
I wish there were an easy way to use a gender neutral pronoun for a person. The English language is cumbersome if one wants to avoid pronouns altogether. Using "he/she" is also cumbersome. Maybe we should all learn Esperanto?

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by iowan woman

pnggrad

The grrr part was meant to be playful. I agreed with what you said.

I will keep my perceptions to myself. I am so very sorry to have intruded.

Oh, no you don't. Oh, sorry, I mean please don't do that. They are important - the thoughts you expressed earlier especially. I spent three years in Iowa, following a year in England, following 37 years in Ohio. I a here to tell you that a great many churchgoers think that God does, in fact, have a penis. What they think God does with it, I don't know.

Then the fallback is almost always that the Bible says God is a "he". Well, no it doesn't - not always anyway. Let's talk about the breasts of God and the womb of God as it is discussed in Hebrew Scripture. In both Hebrew and Greek, the pronouns can mean "he, she or it." Let's talk about Jesus calling God "Father" using the Greek which means both "father" and "parent".

The real reason is tradition - without knowing why the tradition became that way. That tradition was formed when the Latin Vulgate became THE BIBLE - you know, the same time men decided there should only be an all-male priesthood, and they should be called Father. The tradition developed to maintain male dominance in a "religion" named after an egalitarian.

Personally, Iowan woman, I am very glad you said you piece.

Blessings,
Andy

P.S. I hear you on the ill-mannered, bad-tempered cheapskates as well. What kind of tip do we think Jesus would have left?

[antiochian]

pnggrad--thanks for your words. Deep down the God I believe in--yes, I do believe even when I won't admit it to myself--is love. The person of Jesus, who some may or may not believe was God (I always have), took on a human form, lived in poverty, allowed himself to be humiliated and mocked, and even killed. That picture of God which Jesus gives us is of a God who is compassionate, and also, humble. Most would expect (as the Pharisees seemed to think) that were God to become incarnate at all, he/she would be a powerful ruler, wearing robes and crowns and such, not as a poor carpenter. The image of the carpenter I think is more appealing to most, because that image is more on most people's level. This incarnation of God, Jesus, I can picture sitting in a cardboard box in an alley with his arms wrapped around a heroin addict, where as no one can picture a king or a queen, or a prime minister doing such a thing. The image of God in Jesus relates to the common people, and is not hidden away on a throne somewhere ignorant of the sufferings of his people.

[antiochian]

My keyboard froze and I was unable to finish my last post... Despite the loving image of God which the New Testament shows, there are instances in the OT which depict God as fairly mean and temperamental, not unlike many Greek gods who could get torked at the drop of a hat. The fact that he/she would command Abraham to sacrifice his son, even though he didn't intend him to carry it out. The instances in which God smites various people (like Onan for "spilling" his semen). The fact that the Holiness Code and all its strict rules ever existed at all, even if the new covenant did wipe it out. That disturbs me. Am I the only one who sees this lopsided view of God in scripture (nice in the NT, not always so in the OT)?

[Unmasked]

Hehe, I love you all. Uhm...where should I start...let's go gender of the Deity first.

Well, the Deity...Ana always referenced the Almighty as Godde, and being of both genders, which makes the most sense to me. Godde got lost in linguistics however. Most languages are quite masculine, and generally use masculine pronouns when we have a mixed-gender group or an unknown gender. So the languages we speak give a natural bias, and the temple priests helped it along a little.

I have my fun theory on the virgin birth, which I think makes sense, but then again, it comes from my own silly perspective. I believe that Jesus was fully concieved by Godde, and that Mary served as more of a surrogate/adoptive mother than anything. I'm not sure if this objectifies Mary as being a vessel and instrument for the bearing, birthing, and rearing of the Child, or if it honors her as being the greatest example of what a mother should be. It also gives Joseph a little bit more credit because it makes Jesus a jointly-adopted son rather than a stepson. (I'm a bit sleep-deprived, so give me time to develop that theory)

And on OT Godde. The Holiness Code was made for a very specific reason. The dietary laws were in the interest of personal health, and to separate them from the pagans. The sexual laws were made to produce a strong nation very quickly so that they could defend themselves. The prohibition on tattoos was to separate them from the pagans, and possibly for health reasons as well. Onan was killed for pulling out and not fulfilling his duty to Tamar by providing her with children. He was being sexually selfish, which was unfair to Tamar and the people of Israel. Godde had a reason for doing everything that They did. After the disgrace of Israel and the inclusion of the Gentile nations it had become clear that Godde had opened Their arms to the whole world, and wanted all to know Their love.