What do you go to church for?

[cartierobert]

Originally Posted by Dumbledore

Glad you found a welcoming place. That is definitely a good thing. Most of organized religion scares this old wizard to death.

The term "Organzied Religion" has always hit me as odd. My studies of religion make it all seem very disorganized. Mostly people tyring to make since of the universe and debating over it's meaning. There are some groups that make things seem all structured and what not, but that really is not the case.

Of course being form a free church tradition, I have a different experience with faith and religion than say a Catholic. I don't think you get more organized than that.

[Dumbledore]

Originally Posted by cartierobert

The term "Organzied Religion" has always hit me as odd. My studies of religion make it all seem very disorganized. Mostly people tyring to make since of the universe and debating over it's meaning. There are some groups that make things seem all structured and what not, but that really is not the case.

Of course being form a free church tradition, I have a different experience with faith and religion than say a Catholic. I don't think you get more organized than that.

Let me assist you in easily identifying the nature of the beast (organized religion that is). Whenever you get a group of people deciding if LGBT people get to preach, get married, have jobs or stay alive...you've found an organized religion.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Dumbledore

I used to really love to go to church and used to find so much friendship and solace there...even spirituality. After coming out that all got blown to smithereens. I've not been to church consistently for a decade but funny enough my boyfriend and I were discussing it today...and poof...this thread.

We're feeling isolated as a couple

This makes me sad.
I can't BELIEVE people treat their friends in these ways. I know that they do, but I still can't believe it.

Well, I suppose the question was timely then. I have never gone to church, except those 4 or 5 times as a visiting stranger, and I have been wondering what it would be like, which is why I asked.

I hope you'll find an environment full of friendship and solace again. You have too much substance, intellect, and kindness to not have that.

[Dumbledore]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

I hope you'll find an environment full of friendship and solace again. You have too much substance, intellect, and kindness to not have that.

Thanks Zerbie. My boyfriend and I have a lovely relationship but all our friends have left Chicago. It is so weird. We were walking along the lakefront and discussing how isolating that feels.

[cartierobert]

Originally Posted by Dumbledore

Let me assist you in easily identifying the nature of the beast (organized religion that is). Whenever you get a group of people deciding if LGBT people get to preach, get married, have jobs or stay alive...you've found an organized religion.

I understand your point of view, but I still maintain the terminology is largely flawed and widely misused.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Dumbledore

Thanks Zerbie. My boyfriend and I have a lovely relationship but all our friends have left Chicago. It is so weird. We were walking along the lakefront and discussing how isolating that feels.

Ooh, that's the sort of thing that gives me a chronic low-grade case of the blues. Not having other friends to spend time with. All my friends left town around the time when I finished my masters degree - it was an incredibly painful and depressing time.

Yeah, you'd probably do well to find somewhere to go and hang out with like minded people who share your values and enjoy the same activities. For me, I don't think that's ever going to be a church. Not sure, which is why I started this question. More likely to be yoga classes for me. I've just started going to classes just to be around other people.

[Dumbledore]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Ooh, that's the sort of thing that gives me a chronic low-grade case of the blues. Not having other friends to spend time with. All my friends left town around the time when I finished my masters degree - it was an incredibly painful and depressing time.

Yeah, you'd probably do well to find somewhere to go and hang out with like minded people who share your values and enjoy the same activities. For me, I don't think that's ever going to be a church. Not sure, which is why I started this question. More likely to be yoga classes for me. I've just started going to classes just to be around other people.

We have an LGBT community center here in Chicago...maybe I should show up for the Rainbow Lotus Sangha on Thursdays (Buddhist group). I'm job hunting so I'm not sure if I'll be saying here or not.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Dumbledore

We have an LGBT community center here in Chicago...maybe I should show up for the Rainbow Lotus Sangha on Thursdays (Buddhist group). I'm job hunting so I'm not sure if I'll be saying here or not.

That might be a pleasant way to pass the time even if you DO end up moving elsewhere. And if not, you'll already have a new network of buddies to celebrate your terrific new job with.

[animejunkie]

I really do not like church. Ever since discovering my homosexuality identity, I have seriously stopped going. I felt in conflict with myself, and more specifically unwelcome because I was the abomination. This is my fellowship, this site and all its wonderful members. You guys embody the Christian fellowship I have ached for all my life. It feels so real and genuine, a feeling that within youth groups, and other Christian groups, I have always felt lacking. I hope someday to return to church, that will be a day when I am able to find the love God has waiting for me and when I am able to finally be free as myself at a Church.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by animejunkie

I really do not like church. Ever since discovering my homosexuality identity, I have seriously stopped going. I felt in conflict with myself, and more specifically unwelcome because I was the abomination. This is my fellowship, this site and all its wonderful members. You guys embody the Christian fellowship I have ached for all my life. It feels so real and genuine, a feeling that within youth groups, and other Christian groups, I have always felt lacking. I hope someday to return to church, that will be a day when I am able to find the love God has waiting for me and when I am able to finally be free as myself at a Church.

I think you got this exactly right KYO. When you are finally in a position to come out of your closet, be open with yourself, other people, and God about who you are and what that means and when you find a church where all of that can be celebrated openly, then you will be ready to experience the richness that God intends for your life! Likely that will include worship and fellowship with your fellow Christians. In the mean time... do what you need to in order to stay safe and protect your heart.

YOu are an awesome young man. The world is in for such a treat when it finally gets to see the KYO "butterfly" emerging from his Chrysalis and drying his amazing multi-colored wings in the sunlight! God is good!

[Pablo Rafael]

I love going to church! It is a place where I can connect to God in a community. There I find a reverance and a joy. I read the Bible and pray at home, but for me it is necessary also to be with others. It is a place where I can support others, and they can support me as we worship, hear God's word and receive the Eucharist together.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Easy Answer:

I don't get paid if I don't show up!

same here. no play, no pay. and the word going through the grapevine is that a raise is coming when the budget gets voted in.

I really believe, as u-dog, that worship is our primary purpose, and that doing so corporately helps us focus on God. It's like recharging our spiritual batteries so that we can go out and serve others.

I am bothered by churches whose primary purpose seems to be evangelism. And by that, I mean that their worship service is not a worship service, but rather a strange combination of "We're good christians/listen to the nice things we say about God" and "get saved now because you're gonna burn if you don't!" Evangelism is for outside the church. the church is for worship.

Originally Posted by u-dog

That reminds of the first time my neice attended church at age 3. she spoke only Italian at that time and said in a loud voice: "Mommy? Is this the circus?"

Yesterday, some grandparents brought their 2yo grandson to church. His family will be attending our church in 2 weeks. After every song, the young man loudly announced "All Done!"

[dsdrane]

Until age 39, I was a life-long agnostic. Even walking into a church gave me the heebie-jeebies. I remember not so long ago attending an Evensong service a choir-director/organist friend of mine invited me to (ironically at an Episcopal church), and I pretty much freaked out. The incense, especially...oy!

It boils down to Faith. I didn't have it then...I do now, though. But, by having faith, I don't mean that I swallow it all hook, line and sinker. Worship is both corporate (together as a group) and individual, and I find there is plenty of room to find my particular beliefs and faith.

The change came at the end of a number of life-/perception-changing events: 9/11, a relationship ending, my father dying, another relationship ending, leaving NYC after some 17 years.

The theologian Henri J. M. Nouwen writes about how water will run right off of hard, packed soil. Crack open this soil, and the water can start to seep in, germinate the seeds below and create life.

A lifetime of various hurts and pains -- and honest to goodness skepticism -- had created a hard shell in my mind, a seemingly impervious barrier to things I couldn't prove, like specifically religious faith. I was completely dogmatic about being anti-dogmatic...completely intolerant of what I viewed and heard as intolerance.

Then life cracked open this barrier, and the water seeped in...water that gave birth to some new ideas, perspectives, ways of thought.

My now former diocesan bishop in Florida, Leo Frade, puts it another way when talking about the issues facing the Episcopal Church. He sees these "issues", these cracks in the walls, as absolutely essential to an institution still very much in the process of "becoming". The "body of Christ" is a work in progress, he writes, and the cracks are how the light gets in.

To answer your question, then, I go to church because I want to keep alive the epiphany I had over a year ago, while reluctantly accompanying my step-mom to the (Missouri) Lutheran church she and my father had been so long associated with. I wasn't sure what any of it meant, and I feel like I'm still in the process of figuring it out, but I knew it was something I wanted, something that felt right. I had faith in that feeling.

Fast forward a year, and I go to get that booster shot that reminds me of everything that is bigger than myself. I don't even mind the incense too much (which, fortunately, is only used on special occasions), because it can be part of the whole environment that puts your mind and heart in a different, non-quotidian place.

I go because I need other people around me to remind me of our human family. I go to sing. I go to hear words that, incredibly, have been passed along from generation to generation for millenia. I go to take the Eucharist, to literally ingest the truth that God is love. I go to feel God's peace.

There's a fantastic book by Sara Miles -- Take his Bread: A Radical Conversion -- that struck such an amazing chord with me. I highly recommend it, not to proselytize at all, but rather to attempt to explain something difficult to explain.

Finally, I go for reasons I think are beautifully summed up in a prayer we use frequently in the Book of Common Prayer:

A Prayer of St. Chrysostom

Almighty God, you have given us grace at this time with one accord to make our common supplication to you; and you have promised through your well-loved Son that when two or three are gathered in his Name you will be in the midst of them: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen.

[snuka12000]

First, I go to church because I have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. I go to church to praise the LORD. I go to church to fellowship with other Christians. I go to church to be encouraged and directed in my Christian walk by the pastor.

[cartierobert]

Originally Posted by animejunkie

I really do not like church. Ever since discovering my homosexuality identity, I have seriously stopped going. I felt in conflict with myself, and more specifically unwelcome because I was the abomination. This is my fellowship, this site and all its wonderful members. You guys embody the Christian fellowship I have ached for all my life. It feels so real and genuine, a feeling that within youth groups, and other Christian groups, I have always felt lacking. I hope someday to return to church, that will be a day when I am able to find the love God has waiting for me and when I am able to finally be free as myself at a Church.

I was right there for a couple of years myself, but I finally broke down and did some research until I knew I could be both...a Chirstian and gay. It took me a while to find the right church even where so many exist that are welcoming and affirming. I had to find one that fit me.

[Dumbledore]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

Until age 39, I was a life-long agnostic. Even walking into a church gave me the heebie-jeebies. I remember not so long ago attending an Evensong service a choir-director/organist friend of mine invited me to (ironically at an Episcopal church), and I pretty much freaked out. The incense, especially...oy!

It boils down to Faith. I didn't have it then...I do now, though. But, by having faith, I don't mean that I swallow it all hook, line and sinker. Worship is both corporate (together as a group) and individual, and I find there is plenty of room to find my particular beliefs and faith.

The change came at the end of a number of life-/perception-changing events: 9/11, a relationship ending, my father dying, another relationship ending, leaving NYC after some 17 years.

The theologian Henri J. M. Nouwen writes about how water will run right off of hard, packed soil. Crack open this soil, and the water can start to seep in, germinate the seeds below and create life.

A lifetime of various hurts and pains -- and honest to goodness skepticism -- had created a hard shell in my mind, a seemingly impervious barrier to things I couldn't prove, like specifically religious faith. I was completely dogmatic about being anti-dogmatic...completely intolerant of what I viewed and heard as intolerance.

Then life cracked open this barrier, and the water seeped in...water that gave birth to some new ideas, perspectives, ways of thought.

My now former diocesan bishop in Florida, Leo Frade, puts it another way when talking about the issues facing the Episcopal Church. He sees these "issues", these cracks in the walls, as absolutely essential to an institution still very much in the process of "becoming". The "body of Christ" is a work in progress, he writes, and the cracks are how the light gets in.

To answer your question, then, I go to church because I want to keep alive the epiphany I had over a year ago, while reluctantly accompanying my step-mom to the (Missouri) Lutheran church she and my father had been so long associated with. I wasn't sure what any of it meant, and I feel like I'm still in the process of figuring it out, but I knew it was something I wanted, something that felt right. I had faith in that feeling.

Fast forward a year, and I go to get that booster shot that reminds me of everything that is bigger than myself. I don't even mind the incense too much (which, fortunately, is only used on special occasions), because it can be part of the whole environment that puts your mind and heart in a different, non-quotidian place.

I go because I need other people around me to remind me of our human family. I go to sing. I go to hear words that, incredibly, have been passed along from generation to generation for millenia. I go to take the Eucharist, to literally ingest the truth that God is love. I go to feel God's peace.

There's a fantastic book by Sara Miles -- Take his Bread: A Radical Conversion -- that struck such an amazing chord with me. I highly recommend it, not to proselytize at all, but rather to attempt to explain something difficult to explain.

Finally, I go for reasons I think are beautifully summed up in a prayer we use frequently in the Book of Common Prayer:

A Prayer of St. Chrysostom

Almighty God, you have given us grace at this time with one accord to make our common supplication to you; and you have promised through your well-loved Son that when two or three are gathered in his Name you will be in the midst of them: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen.

This was a really powerful entry and really touched my heart. I kind of feel like the water is starting to penetrate my hard heart right now. A lot of this has to do with the conversations here at Soulforce. I need to find my way back to an Episcopal church here in Chicago. I attended one while in Bloomington, IN but have not really made much effort here. I'm not even sure which Episcopal churches are a good bet here in Chicago.

[Dumbledore]

Originally Posted by animejunkie

I really do not like church. Ever since discovering my homosexuality identity, I have seriously stopped going. I felt in conflict with myself, and more specifically unwelcome because I was the abomination. This is my fellowship, this site and all its wonderful members. You guys embody the Christian fellowship I have ached for all my life. It feels so real and genuine, a feeling that within youth groups, and other Christian groups, I have always felt lacking. I hope someday to return to church, that will be a day when I am able to find the love God has waiting for me and when I am able to finally be free as myself at a Church.

Well we love having you in our Soulforce church. I have a question for you. You mentioned that God has love waiting for you. Why can't you find God's love now? I have the same exact problem. I know God loves me but because of the tremendous heartache I've experienced in church I find it difficult to open up my heart to God's love (even when I am not at church). It is really irrational at a lot of levels that we'd shield our hearts from God's love, but we do. Hmmm...a great mystery indeed.

[snuka12000]

You have to find a church where gay people are celebrated and not tolerated.

This website should have resources to help you find a church.

[snuka12000]

Here is a link to some churches in your area that you might want to do some research on.

http://www.pflagphoenix.org/community/churches.html

Gay-friendly churches

Within the past decade, more and more churches are becoming "affirming," meaning that they incorporate into their mission the concept that all worshippers, regardless of xx or sexual orientation, are welcome. The United Church of Christ is, as a whole, is known for being gay-supportive, as are the Unitarian Universalists. The clergy group No Longer Silent (nolongersilent.org) is made up of representatives from two prominent "gay churches," Community Church of Hope and Gentle Shepard (www.gsmcc.org), and offers support to gays and lesbians.

Here are some welcoming churches, plus a motto or a bit about the philosophy of each:

Trinity Episcopal Cathedral
100 W. Roosevelt, Phoenix
(602) 254-7126
www.trinitycathedral.com
"Radical hospitality, radical equality, radical love."

Grace Lutheran
1124 N. 3rd St., Phoenix
(602) 258-3787
www.graceinthecity.com
Known as "The Pancake Church" for its pancake-breakfast outreach to the homeless.

Valley Unitarian Universalist Church
6400 W. Del Rio St., Chandler
(480) 899-4249
www.vuu.org
"A welcoming community that honors diversity in all its forms."

Olive Tree Christian Fellowship at Palo Cristi Presbyterian
3535 E. Lincoln Dr., Paradise Valley
(602) 955-6080
www.palocristipres.org
"We welcome and encourage all people to join us in knowing Jesus Christ and learning about our faith."

Asbury United Methodist
1601 W. Indian School Rd., Phoenix
(602) 279-2369
www.aplaceforallpeople.com
"A place for all people to become disciples of Jesus Christ."

Casa de Cristo Evangelical Church
1029 E. Turney Ave., Phoenix
(602) 265-2831
www.casadecristo.org
"Christ-centered, Bible-based, spirit-filled, open and affirming."

Christ of the Desert Catholic of the Antioch at Faith Evangelical Lutheran Church
801 E. Camelback Rd., Phoenix
"We welcome all to our altars regardless of race, gender, marital or economic status, sexual orientation or denominational affiliation."

Community Church of Hope
4121 N. 7th Ave., Phoenix
(602) 234-2180
www.communitychurchofhope.com
"A diverse group of people who are God-centered and Christ-driven, seeking to provide God's hope and love to all."

Scottsdale Congregational United Church of Christ
4425 North Granite Reef Road
Scottsdale, Arizona 85251
(480) 946-2900
www.scucc.com
"An open and Affirming community of Christians who gladly welcome into our midst any person who seeks Christian fellowship regardless of race, age, gender or sexual orientation."

Via de Cristo United Methodist Church
20199 N. 78th Place, Scottsdale
(480) 515-4490
www.viadecristo.com
"Open hearts, open minds, open doors"

Healing Waters Ministries
225 West University Drive, Suite 105, Tempe
(480) 894-8681
www.hwmaz.com
"A Non-Denominational Christian church for lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transgenders and heterosexuals."

[shadesofgray21]

Originally Posted by Dumbledore

Well we love having you in our Soulforce church. I have a question for you. You mentioned that God has love waiting for you. Why can't you find God's love now? I have the same exact problem. I know God loves me but because of the tremendous heartache I've experienced in church I find it difficult to open up my heart to God's love (even when I am not at church). It is really irrational at a lot of levels that we'd shield our hearts from God's love, but we do. Hmmm...a great mystery indeed.

You hit this right on the head, Dumbledore! Even a few years later, I find it difficult to differentiate God's love from the "love" that I witness when in a church. I have yet to find a church that I feel as though I am a peice in a puzzle, and not just a gay member of a church. It's a bit more difficult, being in Oklahoma City. My boyfriend and I attempted to attend Cathedral of Hope, but still did not feel completely comfortable. I don't know if it was the combined results of everything that we had been through regarding churches, or if it was just in our heads, but something, at that time, didn't feel right. How's that for a run-on sentence?

I still crave the fellowship and community of a church, which is partly the reason I have joined this community as well as the online community of Revolution NYC. The main driving force for me finding a church, at the moment, is the fact that I want to become involved in ministering to the GLBT youth that I know are going through the same things I did in my teens. It's definitely a lenghty process to heal your spirit from the damage done. As a former friend said to me when trying to "save" me from my homosexuality... "baby steps". I'm trying not to completely immerse myself into anything, for fear of getting hurt yet again.