The plot thins....

[dsdrane]

I hope they don't let the door hit them on the....

[Pulled from: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071205/...oVgS.aFxg.3QA]

Episcopal Church faces possible major defection
By Michael Conlon, Religion Writer
Wed Dec 5, 1:35 PM ET

The U.S. Episcopal Church faces major tumult this week when an entire California diocese with more than 9,000 members decides whether to secede in an unprecedented protest over gay issues.

The Episcopal Diocese of San Joaquin, based in Fresno and consisting of nearly 50 churches in 14 counties, would be the first diocese to bolt from the U.S. branch of the 77-million-member global Anglican Communion if Saturday's final vote passes.

The U.S. church and Anglicanism generally have been in upheaval since 2003 when the Episcopal Church consecrated Gene Robinson of New Hampshire as the first bishop known to be in an openly gay relationship in more than four centuries of church history.

Dissent over that as well as the blessing of same-sex unions practiced in some congregations has caused a number of defections by traditionalists in the U.S. church.

The 2.4 million-member U.S. church says that out of 7,600 congregations 32 have left, meaning that a majority of members of those congregations have departed and the churches are now considered closed. Another 23 have voted to leave, meaning that significant number of members have said they want to leave.

None of the church's 110 dioceses, however, has taken the final step to depart so far. Dioceses in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and Fort Worth, Texas, have also taken preliminary votes to leave, but their final decisions are a year away.

Bishop John-David Schofield, head of the San Joaquin Diocese, says leaving the U.S. church is "a sensible way forward" and one that could later be reversed if "circumstances change and the Episcopal Church repents."

In the meantime his diocese has received what he calls a "welcome" invitation to realign itself, should the vote be affirmative, with the Anglican Church of the Southern Cone of South America headed by conservative Archbishop Gregory Venables of Argentina.

That, he said, will allow members to remain part of the global Anglican church.

'REMAIN EPISCOPAL'

A year ago the San Joaquin Diocese's preliminary vote to leave the Episcopal Church was overwhelming. The process requires two votes year apart.

But a secession would not be unanimous. An organization called "Remain Episcopal" is opposing it and says its members will remain in place as the duly recognized Episcopal Church even if the bishop, some clergy and other congregants leave.

Katharine Jefferts Schori, presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, urged Schofield in a letter earlier this week not to pull his flock out, saying "the church will never change if dissenters withdraw from the table."

She also made it clear what would happen if he did: A process that could eventually allow her to "depose" the bishop, declare the diocese vacant and allow those who want to remain to form a new church leadership.

The Episcopal Church also says it has control over all property and once a congregation leaves it has to find another place to worship. That contention has been challenged in several court cases, including one in Virginia where property dating back to Colonial times and worth millions of dollars is in dispute.

A spokeswoman for the San Joaquin Diocese said the property issue had yet to be addressed. (Editing by Andrew Stern and Jackie Frank)

Copyright © 2007 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.

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[dsdrane]

The bishop of the San Joaquin Diocese sounds like a real sweetheart.... His is one of three dioceses (out of 110) not to ordain women, so of course he's not gonna like The Gays.

Here's the latest via Planet Out and Yahoo News....

Diocese may break with Episcopal Church over gay issues

SUMMARY: The San Joaquin, Calif. Diocese, which objects to the liberal attitude of the Episcopal Church toward same-sex relationships, is taking steps to secede.

Headed into a critical vote, an Episcopal diocese in Central California is poised to split with the national denomination over what its bishop sees as the threat of moral decay in the church.

The Diocese of San Joaquin is expected to vote by Saturday to secede from the Episcopal Church, becoming the first full diocese to do so because of a conservative-liberal rift that began decades ago and is now focused on whether the Bible condemns gay relationships.

An affirmative vote would place San Joaquin under the leadership of a like-minded conservative Anglican diocese in Argentina. It is almost certain to spark a court fight over control of the diocese's multimillion-dollar real estate holdings and other assets.

In a letter to parishioners, Bishop John-David Schofield said, ''Those who claim they want to remain Episcopalians but reject the biblical standards of morality ... will, in the end, be left solely with a name and a bureaucratic structure.''

The head of the U.S. denomination has warned Schofield against secession.

''I do not need to remind you as well of the potential consequences of the direction in which you appear to be leading the diocese of San Joaquin,'' Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, head of the U.S. denomination, wrote in a letter Monday to him. ''I do not intend to threaten you, only to urge you to reconsider and draw back from this trajectory.''

Schofield responded that the diocese would go forward with the vote during its annual convention, which starts Friday. He all but predicted that delegates would choose to break with the Episcopal Church, the U.S. member of the global Anglican Communion.

''It is The Episcopal Church that has isolated itself from the overwhelming majority of Christendom and more specifically from the Anglican Communion by denying Biblical truth and walking apart from the historic Faith and Order,'' Schofield wrote.

Last year a majority of the laypeople and clergy who attended the diocesan convention voted to take the first step to secede from the national church. That proposal would become final if it receives a two-thirds majority vote at the meeting.

The Fresno-based congregation has explored breaking ties with the American church since 2003, when Episcopalians consecrated the church's first openly gay bishop, V. Gene Robinson of New Hampshire. The resulting uproar throughout the world Anglican fellowship has moved the 77 million-member communion toward the brink of schism.

Christian advocates for accepting gay relationships, including Jefferts Schori, say they are guided by biblical teachings on social justice and tolerance. But Schofield and other conservatives believe Scripture bars same-sex relationships. San Joaquin also is one of three dioceses in the Episcopal Church that will not ordain women. Schori last year became the first woman elected to lead the denomination.

The diocese's holdings include 48 church buildings, including the lush Fresno headquarters, a series of mission-style buildings surrounded by olive, Chinese elm, and cherry trees. Its total assets are worth millions, said the Reverend Van McCalister, a diocesan spokesman.

About 55 conservative Episcopal parishes have split from the church in the last few years, and some have affiliated directly with Anglican provinces overseas, according to national church statistics. But the courts have mostly ruled against them, said Valerie Munson, a Minneapolis-based lawyer who specializes in religion and law.

''If the San Joaquin diocese succeeds in taking its property, it would set a precedent that would affect not only the Episcopal Church but other churches that are similarly organized,'' Munson said. ''It could set off a chain reaction.''

San Joaquin is one of four Episcopal dioceses out of 110 -- along with Fort Worth, Texas; Quincy, Ill.; and Pittsburgh, Penn. -- taking steps toward breaking with the U.S. church.

''Who owns what is ultimately going to be controlled by the civil courts,'' said James Quillinan, a San Jose, Calif.–based estate and probate attorney. ''What's certain is that when local chapters break off from the national group, it almost always results in litigation.'' (AP)

Copyright 2007 Associated Press. All rights reserved.

[keltic63]

very interesting stuff, even if no one else has responded to your thread yet D.

I'll give the guy from San J his due: he's at least consistent with no women and no gays! Something to offend everyone!

[antonyh]

Can I ask a question since I am very very marginally Episcopalian. Where on earth is this diocese going to go once the leave? Who are they joining?

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Can I ask a question since I am very very marginally Episcopalian. Where on earth is this diocese going to go once the leave? Who are they joining?

I was looking for a link to Akinola and found this unbelievable piece about him written by Rick Warren. WTF? I think this is a good indication of Rick's opinion of lgbt people.

but to answer the question, many of the US churches are joining the African group headed by Akinola. Many believe that it is much like selling their souls to the devil.

[Steven E. Webster]

Originally Posted by keltic63

I was looking for a link to Akinola and found this unbelievable piece about him written by Rick Warren. WTF? I think this is a good indication of Rick's opinion of lgbt people.

but to answer the question, many of the US churches are joining the African group headed by Akinola. Many believe that it is much like selling their souls to the devil.

Keltic,
I couldn't make your link work---please fix it! I'd like to see what Rick Warren says.

Steven Webster

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

Keltic,
I couldn't make your link work---please fix it! I'd like to see what Rick Warren says.

Steven Webster

should work now........

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by keltic63

I was looking for a link to Akinola and found this unbelievable piece about him written by Rick Warren. WTF? I think this is a good indication of Rick's opinion of lgbt people.

but to answer the question, many of the US churches are joining the African group headed by Akinola. Many believe that it is much like selling their souls to the devil.

Hmmm...well it seems really impractical to me to join the African church even from a purely geographical standpoint.

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Can I ask a question since I am very very marginally Episcopalian. Where on earth is this diocese going to go once the leave? Who are they joining?

These dudes are at least staying in this hemiphere.

The article says they have a "'welcome' invitation to realign itself, should the vote be affirmative, with the Anglican Church of the Southern Cone of South America headed by conservative Archbishop Gregory Venables of Argentina."

I don't anything about this Venables guy...but he wins the prize for the most Anglican name I've seen in a while.

[keltic63]

I was looking for some news stories about the Virginia churches that voted to secede and put themselves under the rule of Akinola and his African diocese. I haven't found the story I want, but in reading those that I did find, I'd be willing to bet that most Episcopalians would say that their worship and theology does not resemble that of the majority.

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by keltic63

I was looking for some news stories about the Virginia churches that voted to secede and put themselves under the rule of Akinola and his African diocese. I haven't found the story I want, but in reading those that I did find, I'd be willing to bet that most Episcopalians would say that their worship and theology does not resemble that of the majority.

Many have, in fact, aligned themselves with Akinola...the irony of which I cannot begin to plumb.

Regardless, it's clear to me that homosexuality -- in the church, around the church, by the church -- is the catalyst driving this divide.

And thank God!

It's exposing an unholy alliance and, in so doing, is flushing the bigots out of the bushes. The Episcopalian Church is what it is; those no longer wishing to call themselves Episcopalians are free to call themselves whatever they want. If "Anglicans" works for them right now, so be it. Unfortunately for them, however, what they think is solid ground will turn out to be shifting sand as the Anglican Communion continues to re-align itself.

I don't even think the Catholic Church (with all due respect) will be ready to accept these Deniers, should they come a-knocking.

I, for one, do not worry about the fate of the Episcopal Church. If I were the titular head of the Anglican Communion -- like the ABC -- I would be incredibly worried.

[BenL]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

I, for one, do not worry about the fate of the Episcopal Church. If I were the titular head of the Anglican Communion -- like the ABC -- I would be incredibly worried.

Archbishop Rowan Williams puzzles me. I was happy to hear he had been appointed Archbishop of Canterbury (nominally by the queen, in reality by the prime minister in consultation with church and parliament). As a theologian he had written and spoken with some warmth about welcoming glbt people into the church, both as ministers and to be ministered to.

Upon his ascent as titular head of the worldwide Anglican Communion, he seems to have put survival of the Institution ahead of the stands he once held as a theologian. It's as if, with his appointment, he was commissioned to make sure this last vestige of the British Empire endures. Ya think?

This whole "schism" thing reminds me of the North/South split of so many U.S. Protestant denominations over slavery in the 19th century. It may, in fact, be a painful exercise Anglicans have to go through for a more genuine church to emerge. I am beginning to think that gays will never be welcome in the Anglican Communion as it is now constituted. It's too bad the process is bringing out so much hatred and suffering.

[Daniel]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/us...hp&oref=slogin

Episcopal Diocese Votes to Secede From Church

By NEELA BANERJEE
Published: December 9, 2007


FRESNO, Calif., Dec. 8 — The Diocese of San Joaquin voted on Saturday to cut ties with the Episcopal Church, the first time in the church’s history a diocese has done so over theological issues and the biggest leap so far by dissident Episcopalians hoping to form a rival national church in the United States.

Fissures have moved through the Episcopal Church, the American arm of the worldwide Anglican Communion, which has 77 million members, and through the Communion itself since the church ordained V. Gene Robinson, a gay man in a long-term relationship, as bishop of New Hampshire in 2003.

Traditionalists at home and abroad assert that the Bible describes homosexuality as an abomination, and they consider the Episcopal Church’s ordination of Bishop Robinson as the latest and most galling proof of its rejection of biblical authority.

In the last four years, the Anglican Communion, the world’s third largest Christian body, has edged closer to fracture over the issue. In the United States, several dozen individual congregations out of nearly 7,700 have split with the Episcopal Church. But Saturday’s vote was the first time an entire diocese chose to secede.

“The church will inevitably leave the Bible behind at point after point,” said Bishop John David Schofield of San Joaquin to the diocesan convention on Friday, “but since on this view the Bible is the word of fallible men rather than of the infallible God, leaving it behind is no great loss.”

No one is certain now what will follow, though few expect changes to occur immediately. But over the coming months, tensions could rise in the greater Communion because the San Joaquin Diocese also voted to align itself with a foreign Anglican province, or regional church. Other dioceses may feel emboldened to also cut ties with the Episcopal Church. And on the local level, the church would probably file suit against the diocese over property, lay people and clergy on various sides said.

“It will be a huge, huge legal battle,” said the Rev. Ephraim Radner, a leading Episcopal conservative and professor of historical theology at Wycliffe College in Toronto. “The costs involved will bleed the Diocese of San Joaquin and the Episcopal Church, and it will lead only to bad press. You have to wonder why people are wasting money doing this and yet claiming to be Christians.”

San Joaquin’s delegates voted overwhelmingly last year to change the diocesan constitution to erase mention of accession to the Episcopal Church, but such amendments require a second vote, which occurred Saturday. Two-thirds of the laity and clergy needed to accept the changes, and the approximately 200 delegates passed the measures again by huge margins.

Two other dioceses, Pittsburgh and Fort Worth, out of 110 in the Episcopal Church held their first votes this fall. Bishop Schofield estimated that another six or seven might follow suit, though he declined to name them, and that together they would form a new Anglican province of North America, marginalizing the Episcopal Church.

In response to such moves, presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, the chief pastor of the Episcopal Church, has written to bishops warning them to stop and to be aware of “potential consequences.”

The Episcopal Church has said that people can depart, but they must leave their property, which, it contends, is held in trust for the church. The church and loyalist dioceses are already involved in several lawsuits against breakaway congregations that have insisted on keeping their property.

The Diocese of San Joaquin, with 47 parishes and 8,800 members, has long been different from the rest of the Episcopal Church. It is one of three dioceses that does not ordain women priests. It stopped sending money to the Episcopal Church budget after the consecration of Bishop Robinson. Its cathedral runs a ministry for those struggling “with sexual brokenness,” Bishop Schofield said, which includes homosexuality.

The drive to leave the church began just after Bishop Robinson’s consecration. About three to eight parishes are likely to remain in the church, said the Rev. Van McCalister, spokesman for the diocese, and among them will be Church of the Saviour in Hanford, a small town amid the vast farmlands south of Fresno.

“They say that this is all about belief in Scriptural authority, but that is their buzzword for fundamentalism, and Episcopalians aren’t fundamentalists,” said Lana Butler, a lay leader at the Hanford church. “We are a Bible church, but we don’t interpret Scripture the way a fundamentalist would.”

The move to leave the Episcopal Church risks roiling people’s lives in the diocese, beyond the expense and strain of potential lawsuits. Secessionist priests could be defrocked and might lose their pensions. Loyalist congregations, if they owe any debt to the diocese, may themselves lose their buildings. People might leave parishes whose views they disagree with, and if a legal fight between the diocese and the Episcopal Church grows ugly enough, parishioners might leave the Anglican faith entirely.

The split also threatens to draw in the rest of the Communion and the archbishop of Canterbury, the Most Rev. Rowan Williams, the Communion’s spiritual leader. The diocese accepted an invitation from the archbishop of the Anglican province of the Southern Cone in South America to join his region temporarily. Bishop Frank Lyons of the diocese of Bolivia, part of the Southern Cone, said that Archbishop Williams had told his archbishop the arrangement “was a sensible way forward.”

But Mr. Radner said the Southern Cone’s invitation showed the willingness of some provinces in Africa, Asia and Latin America to create an alternative Communion structure that would bypass the Episcopal Church and even the archbishop of Canterbury himself. That could eventually create a new church.

The fraying of ties weighs on the Rev. Keith Axberg, rector of Holy Family in Fresno, which will stay in the church.

“You have two different world views in the diocese: There are those with a real concern for purity and orthodoxy, which are very important, and I admire that they stand up for bedrock values, like the fact that Jesus is Lord,” Mr. Axberg said. “The Episcopal Church has stood up a great deal for social justice. You really need both sides to hold each other to the fire. But they have blinders on to one another.

[Pablo Rafael]

This whole discussion is so disheartening.

The Episcopal church is the denomination at the forefront in supporting LGBT rights. I guess that those who are on the front line of the battle always take the most casualties.

I don't quite understand how a whole diocese could vote to leave. Where is the authority in the Episcopal church? In the Catholic church the authority generally rests in the diocese and the bishop, but final authority on everything rests in the Vatican. One diocese could not go its own way. In Lutheran churches the authority rests in the individual congregations, each of which can choose what to do. (They will lose membership in the denomination if they don't tow the line, but still have ownership of all property and decision-making.)

It is strange also to me that this diocese is in California. Being a former Southern California boy, I have found Calfornia to be among the MOST accepting of places not the least.

[Steven E. Webster]

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

This whole discussion is so disheartening.

The Episcopal church is the denomination at the forefront in supporting LGBT rights. I guess that those who are on the front line of the battle always take the most casualties.

I don't quite understand how a whole diocese could vote to leave. Where is the authority in the Episcopal church? In the Catholic church the authority generally rests in the diocese and the bishop, but final authority on everything rests in the Vatican. One diocese could not go its own way. In Lutheran churches the authority rests in the individual congregations, each of which can choose what to do. (They will lose membership in the denomination if they don't tow the line, but still have ownership of all property and decision-making.)

It is strange also to me that this diocese is in California. Being a former Southern California boy, I have found Calfornia to be among the MOST accepting of places not the least.

Pablo,
I hope you haven't missed the fact that there are likely to be law suits over diocesan and local church property. Like many other Protestant churches (United Methodists, Presbyterians) local church property in the Episcopal church is held in trust for the denomination and is not the property of individual or a local congregation (Lutherans, Baptists and Congregationalists (i.e.the UCC) do not have such trust clauses and congregations can freely choose to disaffiliate from their denomination).

At the point that this goes to the courts it won't be about religion or LGBT people anymore. It will all be about lawyers, property rights, deeds and trust clauses.

Internal to the church there are church courts that may take action to depose the Bishop and defrock the disloyal priests. The Bishop and priests will likely transfer their loyalties and credentials to one of those Archbishop/Primates outside of the Episcopal Church.

It's all an unfortunate mess. I admire the Episcopal Church for undergoing this suffering for LGBT persons. I hope they stick by their principles and don't let themselves be bullied.

Unfortunately, the Episcopal will be held up by the anti-LGBT bullies as an example of what could happen to Lutherans, Presbyterians or Methodists if they dare to change their policies on LGBT persons.

Steven Webster

[BenL]

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

I don't quite understand how a whole diocese could vote to leave. Where is the authority in the Episcopal church?

Pablo,

There is a great difference between the polity of the Episcopal Church USA and that of most of the other provinces in the Anglican Communion. The churches in most of the Third World are organized along very hierarchical lines, much like the Roman Catholic Church, but without a pope or curia. The ECUSA, however, was a product of the American Revolution and as such has a polity that mimicks the U.S. Constitution in that the Episcopal Church has a system of checks and balances.

While bishops have an awful lot of authority, the ultimate authority in both diocesan governance and the national church rests in the diocesesan convention and the General Convention respectively. On the diocesan level, convention comprises both the lay and clergy orders. For any measure to pass, it must get a majority of both the lay and clergy delegates voting separately. General Convention is bicameral and consists of the House of Bishops and the House of Deputies (both clergy and lay). For any measure to pass, it must muster majorities in both houses.

Lay participation is essential to the polity of the Episcopal Church. The laity cannot be overruled by either bishops or clergy, nor can it impose its own will without concurrence of the other two. So, when the Primates (archbishops of other Provinces) enjoined the U.S. House of Bishops to act to curb gay rights earlier this year, the U.S. bishops rightly answered (with much flowery language) that it wasn't within their power to act unilaterally.

This American polity was a reformation of governance as a result of breaking away from the Church of England, which at the time was as hierarchical as the British government was monarchical.

All that said, these latest tears in the unity of the church is heart-rending for some of us who call it home. Reconciliation will be even less than elusive if whole dioceses secede. Like the slavery issue I wrote about previously, I believe it will take generations to mend our denomination.

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by BenL

There is a great difference between the polity of the Episcopal Church USA and that of most of the other provinces in the Anglican Communion. The churches in most of the Third World are organized along very hierarchical lines, much like the Roman Catholic Church, but without a pope or curia. The ECUSA, however, was a product of the American Revolution and as such has a polity that mimicks the U.S. Constitution in that the Episcopal Church has a system of checks and balances.

And like the American Revolution, the Church of England forced the hand of American adherents by refusing to create a bishop here. Ultimately, the Church of Scotland, no doubt eager to take this chance to thumb its collective nose southward, obliged.

For this reason, I find myself teetering on the abyss of dismissing these break-away Episcopalians as downright treasonous...or, at the very least, unpatriotic. Somehow Republicans and Democrats find the country big enough to share and duke things out without re-aligning themselves with a foreign goverment, but this seems to be beyond the capabilities of conservative Episcopalians.

I wonder how many of them are going to learn Spanish now that they're aligned with South American Anglicans...?

[nmwolfboy]

Adding to the bizarre back-story of the San Joaquin Diocesan leadership voting to schism is the long circulated claim that their leader, Bishop John-David Schofield, is a self-proclaimed 'celibate homosexual' who claims to have taken a lifelong vow of celibacy following being 'healed' of homosexuality.

So, the man leading them in a schism which is ostensibly precipitated by the consecration of The Episcopal Church's first openly gay non-celibate bishop may himself be gay. To my mind, that explains a lot, especially the numerous vociferous objections Schofield has made over the years to the ordination and service of 'non-celibate homosexuals'.

The cathedral of the San Joaquin diocese, St. James' offers:

"specialized ministry and outreach to those who are confused in their gender orientation or who are struggling with addictive behavior toward pornography. We share space on our campus with New Creation Ministries, an outreach of love [a/k/a reparative therapy] to those who wish to be healed of sexual brokenness [doublespeak for: homosexuality/lesbianism] and we are launching our own small group healing ministries to strugglers."

Reading between the lines, the whole thing just increases exponentially in sadness.

-scott