Why do Straights hate gays? by Larry Kramer

[antonyh]

DEAR STRAIGHT PEOPLE,

Why do you hate gay people so much?

Gays are hated. Prove me wrong. Your top general just called us immoral. Marine Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, is in charge of an estimated 65,000 gay and lesbian troops, some fighting for our country in Iraq. A right-wing political commentator, Ann Coulter, gets away with calling a straight presidential candidate a faggot. Even Garrison Keillor, of all people, is making really tacky jokes about gay parents in his column. This, I guess, does not qualify as hate except that it is so distasteful and dumb, often a first step on the way to hate. Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama tried to duck the questions that Pace's bigotry raised, confirming what gay people know: that there is not one candidate running for public office anywhere who dares to come right out, unequivocally, and say decent, supportive things about us.

Gays should not vote for any of them. There is not a candidate or major public figure who would not sell gays down the river. We have seen this time after time, even from supposedly progressive politicians such as President Clinton with his "don't ask, don't tell" policy on gays in the military and his support of the hideous Defense of Marriage Act. Of course, it's possible that being shunned by gays will make politicians more popular, but at least we will have our self-respect. To vote for them is to collude with them in their utter disdain for us.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...nion-rightrail

What do you think about Kramer's editorial?

[Alecto]

I'm generally opposed to boycotting votes because I kind of feel like that's what the folks in power would want us to do anyway, but I'll be honest...if it comes down to the wrong two candidates, I would be tempted to abstain.

Having read up on the history, I can almost excuse "don't ask don't tell", in part because it's not really worse than what was there before, it's just definitely no better. There is no excuse for DOMA forever. It was a knife in the back from a president who ran on a gay rights platform.

[keltic63]

Garrison Keillor is making gay jokes???? where can I find this? I usually love his stuff. why would he be doing this?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by keltic63

Garrison Keillor is making gay jokes???? where can I find this? I usually love his stuff. why would he be doing this?

I like Larry Kramer, I really do. But sometime's I just want to tell the guy to try another way of going about things: he's refined his anger so much that I wonder if he can see anything but his anger. And this thing about not supporting anyone...well....that's just silly. It's like the the kid who tries to control all the toys in the sand box. We need more people voting, not less. In fact, it's been mentioned that the demographics are such that if- say- every African-American person voted, elections would be radically different. Have we forgotten what happened in Florida so soon?

On Keillor: there was something about this on HuffingtonPost (if I recall correctly). And if memory serves, it was pointed about that Keillor's comment was taken seriously, when it, in fact, was meant as satire. A case of Kramer seeing something that isn't there?

[ladyinred]

The thing is the radical right actually organizes to get out the vote from their supporters, if other people don't vote it just makes it easier for them to get their way. So I agree with Daniel.

[Zerbie]

Larry Kramer. An articulate communicator whose message has not changed over the years.

He makes a lot of important point when he paints the overall picture. Things ARE bad. He's good to read if we're feeling complacent.

Of course, fewer people voting is an anti-solution. Do that, things will disintegrate further. As far as LGBTs and elections go, we need to start local by identifying local candidates for city council and state legislative seats who are going to be friendly to the community, and supporting their campaigns. Start small and let it grow - support young local candidates who support the community. Elect them, and who knows where those young supportive politicians will be 20 years from now.

If anybody has a way of contacting Mr Kramer, might be fun to send him a link to all the national Seven Straight Nights coverage. He may say, oh that's too little too late, knowing him, but ya never know. Might shake him up a wee bit.

[Alecto]

My guess is that he'd side with the Queer Nation interpretation: if you're straight, and you think that all the negative stuff directed towards straights is at you, you're just looking for affirmation that we shouldn't have to give you. If you're an ally, you should know you're an ally and that whatever's being said doesn't apply to you (if you don't hate gay people, and you don't partake in any of his examples of hating gay people, then you should already know that).

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Alecto

My guess is that he'd side with the Queer Nation interpretation: if you're straight, and you think that all the negative stuff directed towards straights is at you, you're just looking for affirmation that we shouldn't have to give you. If you're an ally, you should know you're an ally and that whatever's being said doesn't apply to you (if you don't hate gay people, and you don't partake in any of his examples of hating gay people, then you should already know that).

What does that have to do with this conversation?

I floated the idea of showing him the extensive media coverage of those events because HE seems unwilling to consider the possibility that anyone straight might not hate the LGBT community. He has been talking like this for years. You would think that an effort like the national 7SN event series might penetrate in a little and make someone think "Well, maybe things have been getting a little bit better" in that regard. But if he'd rather remain convinced those absolutes are correct so that he can stay angry. . .

[Alecto]

I literally don't know what you don't understand about how the queer nation bit was related to this.

What I'm saying is that I really doubt that he literally thinks that there are NO straight allies. I think he's saying that you straight allies out there that really are allies...SHH! I'm not talking to you. Y'know? And as for why he doesn't come out and say "SHH, I'm not talking to you", that's what the above is all about.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

What does that have to do with this conversation?

I floated the idea of showing him the extensive media coverage of those events because HE seems unwilling to consider the possibility that anyone straight might not hate the LGBT community. He has been talking like this for years. You would think that an effort like the national 7SN event series might penetrate in a little and make someone think "Well, maybe things have been getting a little bit better" in that regard. But if he'd rather remain convinced those absolutes are correct so that he can stay angry. . .

We should send Larry over to Daniel's house for a little Buddhist meditation and a conversation on letting go. Jokes aside, I think that avoiding the ballot box is a bad idea for our community. I wish Larry would cozy up with MLK and read "Give Us The Ballot". Voting is such an important part of being in a democracy and making things different.

That said, I hear his frustrations. This brings up another interesting conversation. I feel significantly hated in this society. Am I just paranoid? How do we cope with that psychologically?

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Alecto

I literally don't know what you don't understand about how the queer nation bit was related to this.

Maybe this is because I'm so ridiculously under the weather but I'm offended by your language above about not 'understanding." IT's a completely unrelated statement. I can't see how I could have been clearer that the suggestion about sharing 7SN coverage, however petty, was about shaking Larry Kramer's perception, not about justifying those who are straight allies. Good grief, who cares? I just thought it might be nice for a bitter old man to see a concerted effort by those who he thought would never care.


What I'm saying is that I really doubt that he literally thinks that there are NO straight allies. I think he's saying that you straight allies out there that really are allies...SHH! I'm not talking to you. Y'know? And as for why he doesn't come out and say "SHH, I'm not talking to you", that's what the above is all about.

Maybe this is because I am sick today, but that's exactly why I see this having NOTHING to do with what I said and I'm even frustrated about it.

The glib suggestion about letting him see the efforts that SF's straight allies recently made has nothing to do with straight people reacting to a statement Larry makes. This has everything to do with Larry's continued rhetoric that 'straight people hate gays. Period. '

My point has been: His rhetoric is in absolute terms. It has not changed in 20 years.

I think you may be mistaken about him recognizing straight allies. He has expressed such a cynicism about them over the years that I don't think he DOES believe they exist. I'm fairly certain that he's out & out SAID that all straights hate gays. I remember how sad I felt thinking what it must feel like to go through 70 years believing that and not seeing any convincing evidence to the contrary. I'm pretty sure that was part of his 2004 speech. If I were at home I could pull my copy out and check for you, but I'm not at home.

Well, I'm probably just flying off the handle because I'm sick. It's obvious that if his description does not apply to someone, they know that. I think that's obvious enough that it does not need to be said. I just thought the efforts of all those straight people involved with SF and Atticus might surprise a hurt, bitter, angry old man with a little something pleasant, for a change.

Ugh. Just re-read this, and it meanders a lot, but I'm feeling too dizzy to edit it. Maybe it IS my communication being fuzzy today. If so - has that cleared it up?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by antonyh

We should send Larry over to Daniel's house for a little Buddhist meditation and a conversation on letting go.

That would do the trick. Reminds me of the Buddhist conception of Samskara.

Originally Posted by wikipedia

The term refers in particular to volitions and intentions (which may be morally good, bad, or neutral) and the way that these contribute to the formation of individual patterns of behaviour or traits of character. Repetition imprints a particular sa?sk?ra on the psyche and the imprint is carried over into the next life.

In short: if you live your life in anger, then anger is the first thing that the mind will turn to. Like water in a well-worn groove, it can only go in one direction after awhile. It takes a great amount of effort and training to make things go a different way. And while Zerbie's idea is a good one, I wonder if showing Larry anything 'positive' would change anything or have much effect. But then, you never know until you try, right? And trying (even if one fails) is important.

Originally Posted by Anthony

That said, I hear his frustrations. This brings up another interesting conversation. I feel significantly hated in this society. Am I just paranoid? How do we cope with that psychologically?

I hear his/your frustration too. And do feel at odds in the society in which we live. But we all know the answer. We have to risk being out. Those who are trying to do some kind of post-modern end-run around the matter (as if it didn't matter) are simply trying to save their asses- that's what I think anyway.

When we have marriage and a generation of married gay folks, and are just as dull and boring as the straight folks...well...that will be the day.

And you know what? I don't really care if straight people hate me (I actually think that most people are too self-involved to go around hating me actually): I just want the same rights.

[antonyh]

Daniel, your post reminded me of this gay guy in Britain singlehandedly taking on the Cornwall Police.



His site:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=thepinkpasty

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Daniel, your post reminded me of this gay guy in Britain singlehandedly taking on the Cornwall Police.

I would loved to have known Andy, and I admire his friend, the person who produced this video, immensely. I pray his efforts are fruitful beyond imagination.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Daniel, your post reminded me of this gay guy in Britain singlehandedly taking on the Cornwall Police.

Which comes on the heels of a level of risk most of us don't have to make. I pray that this merry part of England sees the light.

Thanks for this link. It's a beautiful tribute, though it's beauty doesn't make the horror which has brought it about any less than what it is.

You know, I think that while many of us don't pay this kind of price, there is still a quiet erosion that takes place. We don't apply for this or that job, make waves in such and such area, don't draw too much attention to ourselves. We self-edit a great deal, like we're always waiting for the sword to fall. Do younger folks have it better? I hope so.

My guy and I were talking about this the other night. He has been interning at SAGE (Senior Action in a Gay Environement) here is NYC, and also had a much older gay mentor when he was younger- so he's had a fair amount of contact with senior gay folk. What do they have in common? A reserve which, you might say, was used to help them pass. While those my age (49) don't have this same manner, I believe we are still suffering from the same root of homophobia. We don't let ourselves bloom as much as we could. And to have to fight against so many forces in order just to 'be'? That's just too much for some.

Anthony- This video breaks my heart.

[Alecto]

Zerb,
I tend to be a little spacy myself (I don't have an excuse though). I can see how what I said might sound...patronizing? And I apologize, cause that's not where I was trying to take it. This thread is kind of a weird one for me, because for awhile I saw myself as taking one of two paths. Soulforce would symbolically represent the one path; Mr. Kramer himself would represent the other. I guess a part of me really doesn't want to see so many people jump to proclaim him a bitter old queen, y'know (especially when there's still a chance that I might be in a similar space down the road; and happy to be there).

As for coping with living in this society, it's an interesting question. I still don't really know how that works for me (or if it works for me). Anyone read "Lockpick Pornography" by Joey Cameau? I feel like it's an exploration of what how that character deals with that problem, and deals with the fact that his coping mechanisms aren't particularly solid.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Daniel

You know, I think that while many of us don't pay this kind of price, there is still a quiet erosion that takes place. We don't apply for this or that job, make waves in such and such area, don't draw too much attention to ourselves. We self-edit a great deal, like we're always waiting for the sword to fall. Do younger folks have it better? I hope so.

My guy and I were talking about this the other night. He has been interning at SAGE (Senior Action in a Gay Environement) here is NYC, and also had a much older gay mentor when he was younger- so he's had a fair amount of contact with senior gay folk. What do they have in common? A reserve which, you might say, was used to help them pass. While those my age (49) don't have this same manner, I believe we are still suffering from the same root of homophobia. We don't let ourselves bloom as much as we could. And to have to fight against so many forces in order just to 'be'? That's just too much for some.

There really is that quiet erosion. I've found myself dealing with that over the last few months as I job hunted. I would ask myself, should I put a "t" in Antony so that google searches don't reveal my sexual orientation and open up the possibility of discrimination. Should I apply for this corporate job that does not have domestic partner benefits...yada yada yada. I feel it when I am out with my partner. Should I wear my matching wedding ring in public? Can I hold his hand in public? Are we setting ourselves up for a beating by some homophobe? Having covered hate crimes for the last seven months, I am very sensitive to the reality of unplanned bashings. I've even talked to my partner about this...what is prudent in public? It has unsettled my psyche.

I think sometimes we just have to be with our fears and realize that they are not our fault. They are spontaneous and spring from that root of homophobia you talked about above. We need to be brave when we can and allow ourselves to find safety when we need it. Slowly but surely we will become comfortable in our own skins and with our public voice.

This guy in Cornwall has suffered more than I can imagine. I don't know if you've had a chance to see the other vids on his youtube site. He is an artist and had all his work seized by police. I just hope this site gets more and more visitors and that it stirs enough outrage that something can be done for the plight of LGBT people in Cornwall.

[Zerbie]

Hey Alecto, you were fine. I totally flipped out yesterday - there was no reason for it - just sick, starved, hurting, exhausted, and itching to scream and yell about something. I'm sorry.

Now, Larry Kramer is bitter. That doesn't mean everything he says should be discounted or not taken seriously. To the contrary, the things that wounded him are tremendous things, they are recent, and many of them still applicable. He is in a position to see and point out to us the threats that we do live under. I love it when he exhorts gay people to get out of complacency, to take responsibility for themselves and one another. I love that part of his message. All of America, whatever orientation, should heed that message. I love Larry Kramer, actually. He can light a fire under ya and make ya wanna DO something. I find myself nodding and saying "yes" to a lot of what he has to say.

But he is embittered and the anger has been locked into place for 2 decades. He is stuck in it. As Daniel says, it's doubtful he'd budge much if he knew about the efforts of straight allies across the nation, but he might at least give it a grudging nod in the midst of his fulminations. Might make him take stock of the fact that 2007/8 is not 1987/8.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Daniel

there is still a quiet erosion that takes place. We don't apply for this or that job, make waves in such and such area, don't draw too much attention to ourselves. We self-edit a great deal, like we're always waiting for the sword to fall. Do younger folks have it better? I hope so.

My guy and I were talking about this the other night. He has been interning at SAGE (Senior Action in a Gay Environement) here is NYC, and also had a much older gay mentor when he was younger- so he's had a fair amount of contact with senior gay folk. What do they have in common? A reserve which, you might say, was used to help them pass. While those my age (49) don't have this same manner, I believe we are still suffering from the same root of homophobia. We don't let ourselves bloom as much as we could. And to have to fight against so many forces in order just to 'be'? That's just too much for some.

.

Originally Posted by antonyh

There really is that quiet erosion. I've found myself dealing with that over the last few months as I job hunted. I would ask myself, should I put a "t" in Antony so that google searches don't reveal my sexual orientation and open up the possibility of discrimination. Should I apply for this corporate job that does not have domestic partner benefits...yada yada yada. I feel it when I am out with my partner. Should I wear my matching wedding ring in public? Can I hold his hand in public? Are we setting ourselves up for a beating by some homophobe? Having covered hate crimes for the last seven months, I am very sensitive to the reality of unplanned bashings. I've even talked to my partner about this...what is prudent in public? It has unsettled my psyche.

I see it. I grew up seeing it in those around me, and now I hear it every day on this forum.

Are we doing the utmost that can be done about it? I suppose so. I suppose it is a continual, slow process. It's not like there's a neat little gift-wrapped solution sitting on a shelf somewhere.

Do you find your attitude flows in up waves and down waves, where sometimes you feel like we're succeeding in changing things for the better, and other times when it all seems like we're still where we started?

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Hey Alecto, you were fine. I totally flipped out yesterday - there was no reason for it - just sick, starved, hurting, exhausted, and itching to scream and yell about something. I'm sorry.

Now, Larry Kramer is bitter. That doesn't mean everything he says should be discounted or not taken seriously. To the contrary, the things that wounded him are tremendous things, they are recent, and many of them still applicable. He is in a position to see and point out to us the threats that we do live under. I love it when he exhorts gay people to get out of complacency, to take responsibility for themselves and one another. I love that part of his message. All of America, whatever orientation, should heed that message. I love Larry Kramer, actually. He can light a fire under ya and make ya wanna DO something. I find myself nodding and saying "yes" to a lot of what he has to say.

But he is embittered and the anger has been locked into place for 2 decades. He is stuck in it. As Daniel says, it's doubtful he'd budge much if he knew about the efforts of straight allies across the nation, but he might at least give it a grudging nod in the midst of his fulminations. Might make him take stock of the fact that 2007/8 is not 1987/8.

This is an interesting discussion because the temptation to bitterness is always there. MLK continually exhorted people to avoid the temptation to bitterness. I wonder why that is?