A Good Reason for Entering Iraq?

[Progo35]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...rss_topstories

Someone has to do something about things like this.

[kara speltz]

Oh, Progo, your lack of comprehension just astounds me. While I mourn the loss of 26 people, do you have any idea of how many Iraqi deaths the U.S. is responsible for.

Forgetting the war, for a moment, the restrictions we placed on shipments to Iraq accounted for approximately 5,000 - 6,000 deaths a year for ten years! That's approximately 50,000 Iraqi deaths, most of them children.

Now getting back to this ugly, deceitful war we are criminally waging on the Iraqi people, we've refused to count the Iraqi dead, but estimates are that minamally some 100,000 people have died each year of the war. That sure looks like genocide on the part of the U.S. to me.

Again, all life is precious but there is NO EXCUSE for the lies that lead up to this criminal act that the U.S. has perpetuated on Iraq. I have been there twice since this war began. And you know what? The only real construction that has gone on in Iraq is the building of huge, U.S. military bases!

kara

[antonyh]

I hate this immoral war as well. I wrote an anti-war poem a while back and I thought I'd share it.



The Caramel Macchiatos

500,000 Solo Cups
of foamed Iraqi blood
in the Twin Towers of the
military-industrial complex.

Espresso beans
for Iraqi children,
compressed under
laser-guided
bunker busting
bombs
forcing out
the oily mantle
of reddish-brown crema.

Three pumps Lockheed
two shots from above
over 98.6 degree liquid to the foam,
a sweet crosshatch
of delicious lies
cloaked in the Imperial Seal.

It was inspired by the movie Why We Fight:
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whywefight/

Here are my pictures from the Antiwar march in Chicago. I love show and tell:
http://pics.livejournal.com/ardh/gallery/0000gz2g

P.S. did you read the "Defense" Reauthorization Bill? Ya know the one where the little gay hate crime bill was removed from...

Subtitle A--Authorization of Appropriations

SEC. 101. ARMY.

Funds are hereby authorized to be appropriated for fiscal year 2008 for procurement for the Army as follows:

(1) For aircraft, $4,168,798,000.

(2) For missiles, $1,911,979,000.

(3) For weapons and tracked combat vehicles, $3,007,489,000.

(4) For ammunition, $2,214,576,000.

(5) For other procurement, $12,451,312,000.

(6) For the Joint Improvised Explosive Device Defeat Fund, $228,000,000.

SEC. 102. NAVY AND MARINE CORPS.

(a) Navy- Funds are hereby authorized to be appropriated for fiscal year 2008 for procurement for the Navy as follows:

(1) For aircraft, $12,432,644,000.

(2) For weapons, including missiles and torpedoes, $3,068,187,000.

(3) For shipbuilding and conversion, $13,596,120,000.

(4) For other procurement, $5,209,330,000.

(b) Marine Corps- Funds are hereby authorized to be appropriated for fiscal year 2008 for procurement for the Marine Corps in the amount of $2,299,419,000.

(c) Navy and Marine Corps Ammunition- Funds are hereby authorized to be appropriated for fiscal year 2008 for procurement of ammunition for the Navy and the Marine Corps in the amount of $1,058,832,000.

SEC. 103. AIR FORCE.

Funds are hereby authorized to be appropriated for fiscal year 2008 for procurement for the Air Force as follows:

(1) For aircraft, $12,117,800,000.

(2) For ammunition, $854,167,000.

(3) For missiles, $4,984,102,000.

(4) For other procurement, $15,405,832,000.

I can almost hear Lockheed Martin wetting it's pants.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...tuTaGz:e88652:

I mean with all this hardware in the pipeline, we will definitely have to go to war with Iran.

[inca nitta]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

Oh, Progo, your lack of comprehension just astounds me. While I mourn the loss of 26 people, do you have any idea of how many Iraqi deaths the U.S. is responsible for.

Forgetting the war, for a moment, the restrictions we placed on shipments to Iraq accounted for approximately 5,000 - 6,000 deaths a year for ten years! That's approximately 50,000 Iraqi deaths, most of them children.

Now getting back to this ugly, deceitful war we are criminally waging on the Iraqi people, we've refused to count the Iraqi dead, but estimates are that minamally some 100,000 people have died each year of the war. That sure looks like genocide on the part of the U.S. to me.

Again, all life is precious but there is NO EXCUSE for the lies that lead up to this criminal act that the U.S. has perpetuated on Iraq. I have been there twice since this war began. And you know what? The only real construction that has gone on in Iraq is the building of huge, U.S. military bases!

kara

So, Kara,

All this information that we constantly hear from various news about Iraqi civilians dying at the hands of the Al-Quaida insurgents and other Islamic fundamentalists, against whom our soldiers are officially fighting including my own cousin James, is nothing but a deceitful propaganda coming from our genocidal government? Is this the truth? Is it also true that majority of Iraqi civilians including women and children, are in reality, being killed by American soldiers, but our government is deceiving us by blaming it on Al-Quaida? Is that right?

I also have another friend who is in the Navy reserve, and he is a Seabee, that's a nickname for a construction battalion, a Navy unit specialized in construction. He just got back from Iraq, and he told me that besides building military bases, his and other Seabee batallion were building several schools, hospitals, banks. I also remember, I saw on TV how some American contractors has built a huge bank in Baghdad, but that was like 6 months ago.

What do you think about that?

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by inca nitta

So, Kara,

All this information that we constantly hear from various news about Iraqi civilians dying at the hands of the Al-Quaida insurgents and other Islamic fundamentalists, against whom our soldiers are officially fighting including my own cousin James, is nothing but a deceitful propaganda coming from our genocidal government? Is this the truth? Is it also true that majority of Iraqi civilians including women and children, are in reality, being killed by American soldiers, but our government is deceiving us by blaming it on Al-Quaida? Is that right?

I also have another friend who is in the Navy reserve, and he is a Seabee, that's a nickname for a construction battalion, a Navy unit specialized in construction. He just got back from Iraq, and he told me that besides building military bases, his and other Seabee batallion were building several schools, hospitals, banks. I also remember, I saw on TV how some American contractors has built a huge bank in Baghdad, but that was like 6 months ago.
What do you think about that?

What I am saying is that the VAST MAJORITY of Iraqis killed from this war have been killed by our military forces. When I was in Baghdad right after the war started, the U.S. dropped fragmentary bombs on residential areas of Baghdad. These bombs are the same ones we used in VN. They are designed to not to destroy property but to send out tiny little metal balls that imbed into people's skin. I saw them, I held them. I almost brought some home, but then we remembered that the U.S. was using uranium in a lot of their weapons, and we had no geiger counter to tell if they were radioactive.

And big whoopie we're building banks? There was some rebuilding of schools while I was there, I have heard of no hospitals being built. We haven't brought freedom to the Iraqi people, we've only brought chaos.

And yes, our press, for the most part, shows us only what our government wants us to see.

[antonyh]

Just to put some numbers on what Kara is saying. The Iraq Body Count in association with Oxford Research Group did research based on comprehensive analysis of over 10,000 media reports published between March 2003 and March 2005. The report: A Dossier on Civilian Casualties in Iraq, 2003-2005



Who was killed?

-24,865 civilians were reported killed in the first two years.
-Women and children accounted for almost 20% of all civilian deaths.
-Baghdad alone recorded almost half of all deaths.

When did they die?

-30% of civilian deaths occurred during the invasion phase before 1 May 2003.
-Post-invasion, the number of civilians killed was almost twice as high in year two (11,351) as in year one (6,215).

Who did the killing?

-US-led forces killed 37% of civilian victims.
-Anti-occupation forces/insurgents killed 9% of civilian victims.
-Post-invasion criminal violence accounted for 36% of all deaths.
-Killings by anti-occupation forces, crime and unknown agents have shown a steady rise over the entire period.

What was the most lethal weaponry?

-Over half (53%) of all civilian deaths involved explosive devices.
-Air strikes caused most (64%) of the explosives deaths.
-Children were disproportionately affected by all explosive devices but most severely by air strikes and unexploded ordnance (including cluster bomblets).

How many were injured?

-At least 42,500 civilians were reported wounded.
-The invasion phase caused 41% of all reported injuries.
-Explosive weaponry caused a higher ratio of injuries to deaths than small arms.
-The highest wounded-to-death ratio incidents occurred during the invasion phase.

Who provided the information?

-Mortuary officials and medics were the most frequently cited witnesses.
-Three press agencies provided over one third of the reports used.
-Iraqi journalists are increasingly central to the reporting work.

In Speaking today at the launch of the report in London, Professor John Sloboda, FBA, one of the report's authors said:

“The ever-mounting Iraqi death toll is the forgotten cost of the decision to go to war in Iraq. On average, 34 ordinary Iraqis have met violent deaths every day since the invasion of March 2003. Our data show that no sector of Iraqi society has escaped. We sincerely hope that this research will help to inform decision-makers around the world about the real needs of the Iraqi people as they struggle to rebuild their country. It remains a matter of the gravest concern that, nearly two and half years on, neither the US nor the UK governments have begun to systematically measure the impact of their actions in terms of human lives destroyed.”

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysi...s-releases/12/

[TigerXero]

Oh my... I had not idea it was that bad. (But I also wasn't very aware of the world around me in seventh grade either).

[Progo35]

Hey, Inca,

I'll definitely be praying for your cousin and friend. I also know people who are fighting over there and am so grateful for the good things that they have done, such as rebuilding schools, parks and other resources. It's good that we have people from both perspectives on the war around, so that we can all make each other aware of what's going on. I know that we're all praying that this conflict ends soon, that Iraq will be more stable, and that our troops can return home.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Progo35

It's good that we have people from both perspectives on the war around, so that we can all make each other aware of what's going on. I know that we're all praying that this conflict ends soon, that Iraq will be more stable, and that our troops can return home.

OK Missy Progo. That was so politically correct I can almost chuck my breakfast (or is that lunch).

We flouted the United Nations and preemptively struck a sovereign nation on the basis of trumped up intelligence and slaughtered thousands and thousands and thousands of Iraqi woman and children so that we could empty our 77,000,000,000 stockpile of smart bombs and fatten the coffers of Lockheed Martin, Halibigburt and Mr. Dickie Chainsaw.

There is no, I mean NO atonement for what we did. Our little imperialist empire has overstepped it's bounds. We have abused our power and privilege. We have acted immorally by even the most conservative theology of war. We have angered God.

If you look at my little show-and-tell slide show above, you'll notice that many of the most ardent anti-war protesters were soldiers who returned from Iraq...and the parents of soldiers who lost their children on the battlefield.

I just hope that the anti-war movement can fill up the streets of America in '08 so that we can send an election year statement about the kind of America we want.

I'm proud of the soldiers for doing their duty but I am not proud of this immoral war.

[inca nitta]

Hi folks,

I just found some recent news on what's going on in Iraq, right now:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071223/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

It's from Associated Press, I don't know if that's good or bad, but I think it's interesting to read it.

I must admit that the picture of the soldier and Iraqi kids on the swings, looks pretty neat.

[Progo35]

Although still needing a lot of time and effort, there have been some very, very encouraging developments in Iraq, such as the construction of parks, the rebuilding of schools, and generally making normal resources, like basic medicine and food, available to the public. Hiraldo Rivera did a particularly in depth report on how Iraq is going, which he has been following for quite some time. It is truly heartwarming to see that in some ways, we have been able to improve the living conditions for people over there.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Progo35

Although still needing a lot of time and effort, there have been some very, very encouraging developments in Iraq, such as the construction of parks, the rebuilding of schools, and generally making normal resources, like basic medicine and food, available to the public. Hiraldo Rivera did a particularly in depth report on how Iraq is going, which he has been following for quite some time. It is truly heartwarming to see that in some ways, we have been able to improve the living conditions for people over there.

Everything is just hunky-dory in Iraq, isn't it? Perhaps you haven't been reading the latest news. While the so-called 'surge' has improved the security environment, the political front, where real improvement is going to have to take place, is dead in the water. And Miss Condi has been doing precious little about the matter. In fact, the Iraqi Congress recently gave themselves another month off after already taking an extended 'vacation'. I guess they're not in much of a hurry to make peace. But ain't it grand that we're still there killing lots of people in the name of democracy- a democracy- I should add- which no one seems in a hurry to embrace. They're too busy fighting a centuries old war.

What was said during the Vietnam war is still true: you can't make peace at the end of a gun.

We can't stay there forever. And you can bet your sweet life that the American people will see to it that we don't stay there forever. And it is estimated that it will take more than 20 years before an Iraqi force is able to bring security to it's own country. The next President is going to have quite a pickle on his/her hands.

Heartwarming you say? I guess it depends on what propaganda one listens to.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/i...inline=nyt-geo

Pentagon Says Services in Iraq Are Stagnant
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/19/wa...9military.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/wo...t/16najaf.html
Iraqi City Poised to Become Hub of Shiite Power

That shift would further weaken the Iraqi central government and complete Najaf’s transformation from a dusty, conservative town known mostly for its golden-domed shrine and soaring minarets into the undisputed center of a potentially semiautonomous Shiite region, with some of the country’s richest oil reserves.

So the surge is going well and the country is pullling apart at the seams. What could be better?

I know! Maybe the price of gasoline will come down a little bit. After all, isn't that why we're there?

Hurrah for Halliburton!

[Progo35]

[QUOTE=Daniel;49109]

Heartwarming you say? I guess it depends on what propoganda one listens to.

That's right! It does depend on what propoganda one listens to!:

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/i...inline=nyt-geo

Pentagon Says Services in Iraq Are Stagnant
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/19/wa...9military.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/wo...t/16najaf.html
Iraqi City Poised to Become Hub of Shiite Power

[Daniel]

[QUOTE=Progo35;49114]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Heartwarming you say? I guess it depends on what propaganda one listens to.

That's right! It does depend on what propaganda one listens to!:

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/i...inline=nyt-geo

Pentagon Says Services in Iraq Are Stagnant
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/19/wa...9military.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/wo...t/16najaf.html
Iraqi City Poised to Become Hub of Shiite Power

So the sources I linked to are propaganda? The pentagon? Just who do you think you are kidding?

I see that you were is such a hurry that your forgot to use the quote feature correctly. It's a small matter, but then again, it show's one just how much time was invested in the information provided. Or did you even look at it? Bet not. It came from the evil NYTimes, right?

Does your disability prevent you from reading? Because it sure doesn't prevent you from reacting.

Oh....What fun we're doing to have now.

Too bad all those gay people in Iraq are being slaughted left and right. Remember them? Too bad they can't go to those wonderful new schools built by Halliburton or God-Knows-Who, the same outfit that pays their people 6 times as much as we do our own military. In case you didn't know we contract that out. How lovely! An outsourced war! Who would have thought? It's the Hessians all over again! And let's not forget that nice and private army called Blackwater, which, when it commits an atrocity (which they have by the way), well, they have immunity from prosecution, curtesy of our own Congress. Fancy that!

Yes! Things are looking up in Iraq!

At this point I feel like Auntie Em in The Wizard of Oz, who famously said: "Elmira Gulch.....I've always wanted to tell you what I think of you, but as a Christian woman, I can't!"

The tornado is coming Miss Dorothy. I suggest you head for the storm cellar. And don't forget your shoes.

[antonyh]

The tears of the children fall upon my heart. When the tears dry, my heart breaks, like the dry earth after the rain dries up.

[Progo35]

Daniel: God bless you!!!

[Steven E. Webster]

Friends,

Here's a link to Andrew Sullivan from the end of yesterday.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...n-accom-2.html

Andrew was pro-war at the beginning, but has changed his mind because of that stubborn little thing known as "reality."

The U.S. Military is not the boy scouts and they don't exist to perform good deeds. We did not go into Iraq out of the goodness of our hearts. I don't blame the U.S. Military for Iraq or for war, I blame our political leadership (if you can call it that).

Steven Webster

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by antonyh

I just hope that the anti-war movement can fill up the streets of America in '08 so that we can send an election year statement about the kind of America we want.

.

Do you have a where and when?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

Do you have a where and when?

Scotty- You know, Charles Rangle got it right, a sure-fire way to get a groundswell of opposition would form if we had a draft (he took a lot of heat for introducing just such a measure).

And Progo- what were we told to do after 9/11? Go shopping! And hey- the rich folks got their a huge tax windfall. Nothing like a little sacrifice to put things in perspectice. Rich folks get their off-shore accounts, everyone gets their flatscreen TV's and the oil companies had a hayday. Everyone wins- except the Iraqi's....but oh...let's not think about that. Oh...and we're not letting them immigrate here (we allow a significanlty less percentage than other countries). Aren't we just so welcoming? So Christian of us, wouldn't you say? We bomb them and then prevent them from taking refuge here.

Hubby and I went to the last big demonstration her in NYC on the eve of the last election. And the 'so-called liberal media' hardly covered it. And it was big.

But hey Scotty- I'm with ya. I'll show up again. As long as it takes.

Progo- thanks for the blessings. I hope you're doing your homework. That storm I talked about? It's real. It's going to come in the form of a big bill which YOUR generation is going to have to pay in more ways than one. Don't you just love the guys in office who've morgaged away your future?

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

Do you have a where and when?

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/

I would keep your eye on this site so that you can learn about your local antiwar marches in March on the anniversary of the invasion of Iraq.