Must Breeders Dominate Everything?

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Just seems to me the word creates hostility. But that could be hormones talking.

No, it definately is NOT your hormones talking. The term 'breeder' is offensive and nasty, just as going up to a single gay male and calling him a 'faggot' is(OMG, the F word!).

My children are cherished and very much wanted. I gave up alot of myself to have these children, to be a 'breeder'.

There are many types of families, and I think to put any of them out because they don't fit someones idea of what or who they should be is unforgivable, especially in the gay community. If we want to make any type of progress in the GLBT fight, we must first stop putting lables on each other and making comments such as "they are tring to be hetero, no dyke wants a kid unless she is trying to be straight acting" and "that guy is so flaming, no wonder the heteros think we are sick, he makes us all look bad" I know all of us have head these types of bigoted statements.

That goes for judging people who choose to NOT have children. They should let all who wish to go to these churches and then let others see we all are a family and we come in different shapes and sizes also, just like them. There are plenty of straight and childless single and coupled people out there.

Zerbie, you are right, there are gay people in hetero marriages that are trapped and have only their children to comfort them becuase they don't know how or can't get out of them.....Lord knows I was one of them.

[revtj]

It seems to me that the underlying question NOT being asked or explored for answers is this:

Are we the same as straight people and is our quest for equality under the law an effort to make us the same as them or is it something different?

I contend we are not the same as them and our quest for equality under the law need not involve actions that put us in the position of begging to be like them but rather demanding that the constitution be interpreted to include our rights as non-heterosexuals, intersex, trans, bi and queer peoples, some with kids and some without.

Here's the thing. I wouldn't want to go to these damn mega-moneyworshipping church-corporations if I was straight with 15 kids or gay with a testube baby. So when Soulforce engages this action I respect that it has a lot of meaning to some within our community who have kids and want the megachurch to show them some respect. That's OK with me, but it's so far from where I am that I question the understanding of equality and liberation that is behind it.

I see a trend that has little to do with who goes to what church in the gay community nowadays...

I went to Sunday Brunch with a friend at a great Midtown restaurant which used to be 90% gay as was all of Midtown Atlanta. Not anymore. Like Chicago, NYC and other cities, young straight couples with kids are buying up the neighborhood which gay people restored in the 80s. Shouldn't be a problem, we've gotten along well for years, haven't we? But now it's a pushback with highrise condos, tripled rents, taxes levied and leases being revoked or run up on gay establishments.

I was shocked that there were almost NO gay people at the place. Everywhere straights and metrosexual men with wives & kids. HUH?

Then a M/F couple sat down in front of us with the baby in tow. They bumped our table, spilling our water. They fussed for several minutes to get the baby situated, all the while leaning into our space. Then of course, the baby began to scream.

"Why is this MY problem?" I asked in a loud voice to my friend. They just gave me a dirty look. I miss the fetching looks from handsome men that used to be all over the place. No more. Our bars and restaurants are closing, moving to the suburbs, or going metrosexual.

I liked it better when they were afraid to bring their kids in our bars and restaurants and they went to Shoneys so we could have Mary's to ourselves. But that's just me.

But there is a bigger picture here...Atlanta Pride has been moved from Piedmont Park to the Civic Center. It will be on July 4th this year based on an agreement reached with the city. After that, rumor is, they want to move it to Freedom Park and get us out of Piedmont (where it all began) for good. All this forced on us by the economic forces of straight breeder culture, corporate and real estate giants, causing our once gay-friendly mayor to suddenly go completely silent on gay issues and ignore complaints related to discrimination.

Same story in other cities also. We need those rainbow streetlamps like North Halstead (Chicago) demanded after renovating South Halsted only to be pushed out under similar circumstances.

Back to Atlanta...While this was happening, Pride went from being a human rights protest to becoming a parade with huge marketing forces driving it. Gay youth (not to be mistaken for the children of gay parents) think Crystal Meth and Disco are where it's at and that's even better if you have a BMW and go to the cool gym.

So, now Soulforce is saying, 'please let me & my kids come to your church with you...' and this is supposed to make things better for us?

Please tell me, exactly how is this action relentless nonviolent resistance?

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by revtj

It seems to me that the underlying question NOT being asked or explored for answers is this:

Are we the same as straight people and is our quest for equality under the law an effort to make us the same as them or is it something different?

I contend we are not the same as them and our quest for equality under the law need not involve actions that put us in the position of begging to be like them but rather demanding that the constitution be interpreted to include our rights as non-heterosexuals, intersex, trans, bi and queer peoples, some with kids and some without.

Here's the thing. I wouldn't want to go to these damn mega-moneyworshipping church-corporations if I was straight with 15 kids or gay with a testube baby. So when Soulforce engages this action I respect that it has a lot of meaning to some within our community who have kids and want the megachurch to show them some respect. That's OK with me, but it's so far from where I am that I question the understanding of equality and liberation that is behind it.

I see a trend that has little to do with who goes to what church in the gay community nowadays...

I went to Sunday Brunch with a friend at a great Midtown restaurant which used to be 90% gay as was all of Midtown Atlanta. Not anymore. Like Chicago, NYC and other cities, young straight couples with kids are buying up the neighborhood which gay people restored in the 80s. Shouldn't be a problem, we've gotten along well for years, haven't we? But now it's a pushback with highrise condos, tripled rents, taxes levied and leases being revoked or run up on gay establishments.

I was shocked that there were almost NO gay people at the place. Everywhere straights and metrosexual men with wives & kids. HUH?

Then a M/F couple sat down in front of us with the baby in tow. They bumped our table, spilling our water. They fussed for several minutes to get the baby situated, all the while leaning into our space. Then of course, the baby began to scream. "Why is this MY problem?" I asked in a loud voice to my friend. They just gave me a dirty look. I miss the fetching looks from handsome men that used to be all over the place. No more. Our bars and restaurants are closing, moving to the suburbs, or going metrosexual.

I liked it better when they were afraid to bring their kids in our bars and restaurants and they went to Shoneys so we could have Mary's to ourselves. But that's just me.

But there is a bigger picture here...Atlanta Pride has been moved from Piedmont Park to the Civic Center. It will be on July 4th this year based on an agreement reached with the city. After that, rumor is, they want to move it to Freedom Park and get us out of Piedmont (where it all began) for good. All this forced on us by the economic forces of straight breeder culture, corporate and real estate giants, causing our once gay-friendly mayor to suddenly go completely silent on gay issues and ignore complaints related to discrimination.

Same story in other cities also. We need those rainbow streetlamps like North Halstead (Chicago) demanded after renovating South Halsted only to be pushed out under similar circumstances.

Back to Atlanta...While this was happening, Pride went from being a human rights protest to becoming a parade with huge marketing forces driving it. Gay youth (not to be mistaken for the children of gay parents) think Crystal Meth and Disco are where it's at and that's even better if you have a BMW and go to the cool gym.

So, now Soulforce is saying is, 'please let me & my kids come to your church with you...' and this is supposed to make things better for us?

Please tell me, exactly how is this action relentless nonviolent resistance?

it sounds like you want to be as exclusive of straight people as they can be toward us. You want your own little gay ghetto, and your own little gay restaurants, and you don't want to see children anywhere. how is that any better than the fundies who wish to send all the gay people to some island somewhere? although many lgbt seem to migrate to large cities, many of us do not, and most likely will not. we live in communities that may or may not be welcoming of couples, families, and individuals like us. your arrogance to think that this work doesn't benefit you and therefor isn't relevant, is astounding.

and here's another thing: I'm offended by your resentment of a couple with children. I am a gay dad, with 3 kids. My partner has 4 sons. Would you send us to some separate place as well? Why is it that you think people with kids don't belong?

I'm sorry people with children are irritating to you. I'm sorry you think gay families are merely trying to assimilate. But I'm glad that breeders, like your parents, continue to bring children into the world. Perhaps those kids can make this a better place for all of us to live.

[Daniel]

I would like to inteject a slice of life here.

Personally, I don't envy straight persons- though- of course- I am the son of two straight persons. Fancy that. Isn't that how most of us get here?

Yesterday, a student and friend/colleague of mine -who has a first class voice- called me up to tell me that his wife is pregnant. And he didn't sound very happy about it. As far as he is concerned, his future looks very different than the one he previously envisioned. And of course, he was telling me months ago that he had concerns about continuing his relationship with his wife: he was seriously contemplating divorce.

Boy. Is he in a pickle! And he's asking his gay friend for answers? What can I say but 'get thee to a therapist!', which is the same thing I've been saying for months.

Straight or gay, life is no picnic, is it?

Revtj- on one level I can see your point: life as you knew it is changing and that disturbs you- I get that. What I'm not getting from you is what you would do about the situation.

Is anger and rage all you have to offer? SF changes its policy and it sounds like that isn't good enough for you.

This reminds me of a life spend on the stage: a really good director tells the actor/singer where to go and what to do- it's affirmative. The lousy one just says 'don't do this' and 'don't do that', leaving the artist with precious little room to manueuver. Eventually, the artist usually gets pretty frustrated and pissed off- he/she feels negated and either soldiers on 'in spite of' or gives up.

Frankly, you are coming off as the latter type.

How about we turn this around: what do you think SF can and should be doing instead? Let's hear your grand plan.

PS- I'm certain that you will be the second person I've pissed off this week here on the forum. Hello? Where's U-dog? Perhaps I should get a different avatar...maybe a devil......

[Zerbie]

Okay, I get it. TJ's a separatist.

I can understand appreciating the gay community environment - surely there are still community centers? Gay social groups?

Anyway, I'm glad TJ is not in charge of this forum, or I feel I would not be allowed here.

[antonyh]

There is definitely a place for gay space. I remember moving to Chicago from Indiana weighed down by oppression. I needed a nest for a while, a place to completely be myself without fear. For me it was the dance floor at Big Chicks. And I was there faithfully every Friday and Saturday night! It was the one place that I felt completely free. I hear your desire to hold on to the nest.

But it is a nest.

What I really want is to be fully authentic in the whole of life. I get close to that when I attend my little Methodist church. I get to sit with my honey and we're just a couple among couples. We get to enjoy the kids sermon along with our straight friends (although I can't be the pastor and if I get married there the pastor will be defrocked...but that is the big bad Methodist denomination's fault, not our little church).

We're a family TJ. We need to get our arms around the full diversity of God's splendid creation, not just part of it. Our gay experience needs to teach us the importance of radical inclusiveness since we have been on the receiving end of exclusion.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Our gay experience needs to teach us the importance of radical inclusiveness since we have been on the receiving end of exclusion.

I guess that means no one gets left out, picked last for the dodgeball team, or sent home because they wore the wrong outfit.

Sign me up. I wanna be part of that.

[Vanessa White]

TJ: One of your thoughts in your last post struck me the most, about SF taking an action to the big mega-churches so that we can have them embrace us, like us. I don't know if I understand it to be that goal. Sure, we are going there to show an aspect of our selves, an slice of LGBT community, and to educate on who we really are, which in this case, some of us are families with children. I have never felt the need to assimilate or be compared to straight families with children. There is no doubt, that the majority of our daughter's friends and their families are heterosexual, husband-wife families (at least that we know of), so that is the reality. However, we do our best to let these families know our similarities, as well as our differences. It would be very easy to just settle into those ways in which we are the same, and take comfort in that, but to me, that is yet another way to hide ourselves in shame and being closeted. We can no more afford to be closeted as a family than we could as adult women.

We have so many friends who are single, some whom are coupled, and none of which have children, at least in my 3D life. It creates balance for our child's life, as well as our own, to know and spend time with all different faces in our LGBT community. Sometimes, I want the gay neighborhood for the familiarity, comfort, fun, and history of it. But, sometimes, I want the adventure of just being who I am, with my family, no matter what environment we are in. Our church has been very embracing, but there is no way that we are clumped in with other families in their eyes, I am certain of it. They know that we are not, and I am grateful for that difference. Believe me, we have no desire, most of the time anyway, to blend in.

I cannot identify with your community face changing there in Atlanta, but feel that it is painful and angering for you. I hope that you can embrace the gay families with children within the community, even if that is not your path, with love and appreciation that we are one more grouping in our complex LGBT larger family that we all love so much.

Sorry if this sounds rambling.......

[revtj]

I appreciate that some of you perceive me as simply criticizing from a distance, not offering anything better as you are reading me.

Honestly my intent is in the conversation itself, not deriding or derailing SF. Quite the opposite!!!

Zerbie, I am not a separtist. I love you and want/need your presence here as we all do. We rely on you!

Keltic, what annoys me is that the majority of str8s with kids DO think they are better than both gays with families and single gays. They demand and get an awful lot of privilege just because they are str8 and have kids (ex. IRS deductions not available to gays with kids). It's not the kids that annoy me so much as the assumption that the world should favor their life choices and move over or out of the neighborhood to make them comfortable. They seem blind to this because they are the default status quo reinforced by religion and law in our culture.

I watched "Eyes on the Prize" on PBS again the other night. One of the things that impressed me is that King and his cohorts argued all the time about actions and how to do them, what they meant, and what they were really going after. Andy Young even says King came to rely on him to be the one to criticize sharply just about every plan they made. When he didn't, he says King would ask, "Andy, what's wrong with you?"

Maybe I'm a Youngian.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by keltic63

it sounds like you want to be as exclusive of straight people as they can be toward us. You want your own little gay ghetto, and your own little gay restaurants, and you don't want to see children anywhere. how is that any better than the fundies who wish to send all the gay people to some island somewhere? although many lgbt seem to migrate to large cities, many of us do not, and most likely will not. we live in communities that may or may not be welcoming of couples, families, and individuals like us. your arrogance to think that this work doesn't benefit you and therefor isn't relevant, is astounding.

and here's another thing: I'm offended by your resentment of a couple with children. I am a gay dad, with 3 kids. My partner has 4 sons. Would you send us to some separate place as well? Why is it that you think people with kids don't belong?

I'm sorry people with children are irritating to you. I'm sorry you think gay families are merely trying to assimilate. But I'm glad that breeders, like your parents, continue to bring children into the world. Perhaps those kids can make this a better place for all of us to live.

Originally Posted by revtj

I appreciate that some of you perceive me as simply criticizing from a distance, not offering anything better as you are reading me.

Honestly my intent is in the conversation itself, not deriding or derailing SF. Quite the opposite!!!

Zerbie, I am not a separtist. I love you and want/need your presence here as we all do. We rely on you!

Keltic, what annoys me is that the majority of str8s with kids DO think they are better than both gays with families and single gays. They demand and get an awful lot of privilege just because they are str8 and have kids (ex. IRS deductions not available to gays with kids). It's not the kids that annoy me so much as the assumption that the world should favor their life choices and move over or out of the neighborhood to make them comfortable. They seem blind to this because they are the default status quo reinforced by religion and law in our culture.

I watched "Eyes on the Prize" on PBS again the other night. One of the things that impressed me is that King and his cohorts argued all the time about actions and how to do them, what they meant, and what they were really going after. Andy Young even says King came to rely on him to be the one to criticize sharply just about every plan they made. When he didn't, he says King would ask, "Andy, what's wrong with you?"

Maybe I'm a Youngian.

You know, you really didn't answer my questions and concerns.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by keltic63

it sounds like you want to be as exclusive of straight people as they can be toward us. You want your own little gay ghetto, and your own little gay restaurants, and you don't want to see children anywhere.

I agree with you 100%. I hear this from STRAIGHT people who have no children also. I respect the right of others to NOT have children, but they need to respect the right for us to have them also.

I think its wonderful that straight families bring their children into gay places so the children can see that we are human just like them. Its really hard for people to hate you once they see you as human.

Those children will grow up maybe gay or maybe straight, but with a better understanding of gays as humans because they were raised along side of us and saw NO difference. That is what Sould force is trying to achieve, people seeing us as not different, but the same, just loving the same sex.

And just for the record....my straight "future breeder' teen, participates in the Day of Silence, does not allow others to bash gays and demanded to go to Pride this year and got quite vocal with the protestors. She stands up for gay rights.

We wouldn't exist if not for 'breeders' that had us, now would we?(we can't procreate 2 of the same sex, someone has to pass on the gay gene!)Well, unless we really believes that crap about recruiting!

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Okay, I get it. TJ's a separatist.

I can understand appreciating the gay community environment - surely there are still community centers? Gay social groups?

Anyway, I'm glad TJ is not in charge of this forum, or I feel I would not be allowed here.

It's ok Zerbie, I would not be allowed either! It puts us in the same boat anyow! We still love ya at this end!

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by revtj

I went to Sunday Brunch with a friend at a great Midtown restaurant which used to be 90% gay

I was shocked that there were almost NO gay people at the place. Everywhere straights

Originally Posted by revtj

Zerbie, I am not a separtist. I love you and want/need your presence here as we all do. We rely on you!

TJ. Do you see the inconsistency? That's what's bugging us.

Next time you're at that restaurant and a woman walks in holding hands with her husband, tell yourself that it could be me.

[revtj]

Good. I've done something worthy of my Lord today. Thanks. And you're right, it is somewhat inconsistent...

Just remember, the next time a gay guy walks into a notoriously homophobic church with his child there is no way in hell it could be me.

This weekend the Austin action begins at a megachurch there. I will be with them in prayer. I look forward to hearing what happens. They will be there for the me that never was or is and substitutionary atonement always includes the 'other.'

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by revtj

what annoys me is that the majority of str8s with kids DO think they are better than both gays with families and single gays. They demand and get an awful lot of privilege just because they are str8 and have kids (ex. IRS deductions not available to gays with kids). It's not the kids that annoy me so much as the assumption that the world should favor their life choices and move over or out of the neighborhood to make them comfortable. They seem blind to this because they are the default status quo reinforced by religion and law in our culture.

That's exactly why we are struggling for equality. Straights aren't better than gays. Gays aren't better than straights. Individuals may be better than other individuals, but as a whole, society is equal. Now, we are involved in a battle to prove this. We want the SAME rights, protections and privileges as straights. We aren't asking for more or special rights, just the same. Unfortunately, that will mean some mingling as far as where we live, where we hang out, where we got to church. It's inevitable and should not deter us from continuing to strive for equality.

I'm not saying I want to be just like the straight couple next door. I'm just saying that I want the same choices and opportunities as they get. I want to be the one making that choice, not state or federal government or right-winged fundamentalists. Do I want equality at the risk of losing some churches, bars and neighborhoods to straights? Uh, yeah. I want equality. When I get it, it will be up to me what to do with it.

As things do get more equal and people are more accepting and embracing, yes, neighborhoods and the like will be more inclusive of all. Will we lose some of our strictly gay areas? Probably, but being able to walk anywhere in this country hand-in-hand with the person I love more than makes up for that, IMO.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by revtj

Good. I've done something worthy of my Lord today. Thanks. And you're right, it is somewhat inconsistent...

Just remember, the next time a gay guy walks into a notoriously homophobic church with his child there is no way in hell it could be me. '

I believe your statements have gone beyond being inconsistent. In point of fact, you are dead wrong: you could be walking into a church with a child if you wanted to- and many gay people- in fact do- the church being homophobic or no.

So what the hell is your problem? Do you think SF is 'using' children, harming them is some way. the same way the 'right' is always blaming gay people for recruiting? Or do you simply think that everyone must conform to your reality ie- bow down to your ego? (Oh...and btw....like Steve has mentioned you didn't answer his concerns....and you didn't answer mine either: do you have a better plan? I assume- because of the lack of answer- the answer is: no).

Revtj- you sound like you are well on your way to becoming a bitchy old queen with the occasional smiley face thrown in. ( You'll be there for them in prayer. How gracious of you- and how sacrastic of me. Well hell....you could be there in 3D. Let's get something clear: did anyone say you couldn't be there? I bet not. The only person who has taken you out of the 'picture' is you.)

Is that how you want to live the rest of your life? Huh?



I've tried really hard to see your perspective on this....but you're starting to piss me off. Oh....please don't give yourself points for that too....however...you do seem to consider that the Lord's Work.

Rant over and end of this discussion as far as I'm concerned.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by revtj

Good. I've done something worthy of my Lord today. Thanks. And you're right, it is somewhat inconsistent...

Just remember, the next time a gay guy walks into a notoriously homophobic church with his child there is no way in hell it could be me.
'

So you are being deliberately provocative. ? This, to you, is a good thing? "Worthy of (your) Lord"??

What it appears from this perspective is that you are rejecting overtures of friendship and reconciliation. Okay. If you want. But how is this an action worthy of "your lord?"

It sure looks like you're deliberately throwing my words, meant as a gesture of reaching out in openness, back in my face in utter sarcasm. You realize your response is meaningless to me?

Just putting these questions out there rhetorically. I have lost interest in attempting to further this "conversation."

[revtj]

I've tried to be nice to you. You keep 'provoking' me.

Are you sure you aren't a government plant in this forum? We know they planted agents in the Civil Rights Movement, maybe that's what you are. Bush & Cheney and Homeland Security almost certainly have folks watching SF.

Are you one? Prove that you're not (kinda the same way I'm supposed to prove I'm not a separatist).

If not, then will you peaceably allow me to express my opinion and stop labeling, overanalyzing and insulting me?

They are just words on a screen, Zerbie. Our movement doesn't hang on what I type. It's just another opportunity to think outside your field of experience.

If you don't reply, I'll know you aren't a spy.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by revtj

I've tried to be nice to you. You keep 'provoking' me.

Are you sure you aren't a government plant in this forum? We know they planted agents in the Civil Rights Movement, maybe that's what you are. Bush & Cheney and Homeland Security almost certainly have folks watching SF.

Are you one? Prove that you're not (kinda the same way I'm supposed to prove I'm not a separatist).

If not, then will you peaceably allow me to express my opinion and stop labeling, overanalyzing and insulting me?

They are just words on a screen, Zerbie. Our movement doesn't hang on what I type. It's just another opportunity to think outside your field of experience.

If you don't reply, I'll know you aren't a spy.

Zerbie and Daniel aren't the only ones who have had enough of this. You have conveniently ignored my posts. If you want to preserve any credibility you once had here, you'll need to change the way you are engaging these forum members.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by revtj

[SIZE="3"]
Keltic, what annoys me is that the majority of str8s with kids DO think they are better than both gays with families and single gays. They demand and get an awful lot of privilege just because they are str8 and have kids (ex. IRS deductions not available to gays with kids). It's not the kids that annoy me so much as the assumption that the world should favor their life choices and move over or out of the neighborhood to make them comfortable. They seem blind to this because they are the default status quo reinforced by religion and law in our culture.

Yes, this is heterosexism.

Is the answer homosexism?

No.

The answer is radical inclusiveness and non-violent direct action.