2008 Equality Ride

[pbtn]

Hello everyone! I am a straight male living in the south, and have many gay and lesbian friends. I am obviously tolerant of those friends of mine, and through our experiences my wife has become more tolerant in all areas of her life as well.

My main reason for posting is this: I have a fundemental problem with the Equality Ride. I truly feel that a university has the right to teach their own stated values to the student body, fundementalist or not. I attended a church-based college that discouraged homosexuality, and I made my opposition known. But, I also knew that I had the option of not attending, and after graduating I decided not to support my alma mater until their mission was re-stated to be more tolerant (which has happened, more or less).

Please correct me if anyone thinks I'm misunderstanding the situation, I don't see any difference between what these universities are trying to accomplish and an all male or all female college are trying to do. Are single sex colleges inherently sexist becuase of their admission policies and the courses they teach?

I understand that colleges such as Bob Jones University have policies that most consider racist, but that is their right as a public college. I would NEVER attend the school, would NEVER send my daughter their, nor support it with my tax dollars. Eventually, they will realize they are out of step, people will stop attending, and eventually they will go under. Market based education, I guess

Please let me know if anyone agrees or if I'm wrong about something.

[Matt Algren]

I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of the Equality Ride. From the FAQ:

What are the primary goals of the 2008 Soulforce Q Equality Ride?

1. We often hear on campus, "I have never met any LGBT people." The Equality Ride accomplishes this first and most important step towards reconciliation: making the humanity and spirituality of LGBT people real to students across America. With dignity and scholarly dialogue, Riders convey to students and administration that real lives are affected by the harmful rhetoric promoted by many campuses.
2. The Equality Ride and other campaigns of Soulforce Q work with young adults to build community and nurture leadership. The Equality Riders give voice to students that are silenced on campus. We draw together LGBT students and allies to form communities of informed dissent and safety.
3. There are a handful of scriptures used to condemn LGBT people. We discuss the Biblical scholarship that affirms LGBT people, heard less often if at all, on conservative campuses.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by pbtn

Hello everyone! I am a straight male living in the south, and have many gay and lesbian friends. I am obviously tolerant of those friends of mine, and through our experiences my wife has become more tolerant in all areas of her life as well.

Hi pbtn,

Welcome to the forum. And thank you for posting.

I am glad you say that you have many gay and lesbian friends. Now. I have a question: do your friends know that you tolerate them? That's not how I think of my straight friends. The word draws to mind thoughts of 'in spite of'.

I encourage you to think about the use of this word.

[BruceChris]

You argument could equally be used against anti-segregationists during the 60's, at least until the law began to change. More and more the laws are beginning to acknowledge equality for LGBT folk. Incidentally, Bob Jones is a Private university, but they're still fair game,as far as I'm concerned.

And by law, I'm talking both legal and moral law

Tolerate?

"Tolerate one another, just as I have tolerated you"- Jesus Christ?

(Keltic, I know, I plagiarize SHAMELESSLY)

There are arguments for and against same gender schooling, but a school need not be seen as anti-male or anti-female, just because it's single sexed. I don't see that the one follows the other.

Evangelicals consider me fair game, and I try to be polite, but my beliefs are well established. And those few times that I have tried to try to convert them, they run off in a hurry. Not sporting at all.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[pbtn]

Great posts so far, thanks for weighing in.

I agree that my use of the word "tolerant" was not quiet what I meant (I was typing fast, as I'm at work). I'm sure "accepting" is probably a better word. My friends know that I love them and respect the choices they've made with no judgement involved. I have other straight friends who "tolerate" homosexuals that we know "in spite of" their lifestyles, and I am definitely different than that.

Also, your point about the same logic being used by segregationists is well taken. I do realize that Bob Jones Univ. is a private school, and that is kind of my point. Although they have racist policies (they bar inter-racial dating, etc. . .), I feel it's their right as a private university to do so. It will be to their detriment, because they will become less relevant in today's world and will either have to change their policies or they will have to close the doors.

Stating the purposes of the ride from the FAQ's was helpful and helped me understand a little better the purpose of the ride. What prompted my post was I read a story about Columbia International Univ. not allowing their students to meet memebers of the ride because it didn't "adhere to their values". Although I know this attitude is based in bigotry, to me it's no different than student's at the women's college (I believe it was Smith College) protesting Barbara Bush's speaking there because her being a "housewife" didn't adhere to their values as what a college-educated woman should aspire to.

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by pbtn

Great posts so far, thanks for weighing in.

I agree that my use of the word "tolerant" was not quiet what I meant (I was typing fast, as I'm at work). I'm sure "accepting" is probably a better word. My friends know that I love them and respect the choices they've made with no judgement involved. I have other straight friends who "tolerate" homosexuals that we know "in spite of" their lifestyles, and I am definitely different than that.

Also, your point about the same logic being used by segregationists is well taken. I do realize that Bob Jones Univ. is a private school, and that is kind of my point. Although they have racist policies (they bar inter-racial dating, etc. . .), I feel it's their right as a private university to do so. It will be to their detriment, because they will become less relevant in today's world and will either have to change their policies or they will have to close the doors.

Stating the purposes of the ride from the FAQ's was helpful and helped me understand a little better the purpose of the ride. What prompted my post was I read a story about Columbia International Univ. not allowing their students to meet memebers of the ride because it didn't "adhere to their values". Although I know this attitude is based in bigotry, to me it's no different than student's at the women's college (I believe it was Smith College) protesting Barbara Bush's speaking there because her being a "housewife" didn't adhere to their values as what a college-educated woman should aspire to.

I forgot to say it earlier, so welcome pbtn!

One thing you'll learn about us is that we take words very seriously. I know several people who are surprised at my reaction to words that they hadn't even thought of as being potentially troublesome. But when you've had words used as a weapon so much, you become sensitive to them.

So when someone points out the trouble with the word "tolerant" (for example), please don't take it as an automatic attack or judgment on you personally.

With that in mind (you knew this was coming, didn't you?), and with the intention of educating rather than tearing down, I'd ask you to think about the word "choices". It infers that homosexuality is something that is choosable, which it isn't. Homosexuality is simply a natural state of being that a person doesn’t decide on, just as one doesn't decide to have red hair or be left handed or be straight.

Also, I wish youo'd extended your quotation marks to include the word "lifestyles". That's another big one.

Again, welcome. I don't mean to be hard on anyone, but like I said, some words have been used as a weapon so much that we have to delete them from our vocabularies.

[sauu4equality]

Originally Posted by pbtn

Great posts so far, thanks for weighing in.

I agree that my use of the word "tolerant" was not quiet what I meant (I was typing fast, as I'm at work). I'm sure "accepting" is probably a better word. My friends know that I love them and respect the choices they've made with no judgement involved. I have other straight friends who "tolerate" homosexuals that we know "in spite of" their lifestyles, and I am definitely different than that.

Also, your point about the same logic being used by segregationists is well taken. I do realize that Bob Jones Univ. is a private school, and that is kind of my point. Although they have racist policies (they bar inter-racial dating, etc. . .), I feel it's their right as a private university to do so. It will be to their detriment, because they will become less relevant in today's world and will either have to change their policies or they will have to close the doors.

Stating the purposes of the ride from the FAQ's was helpful and helped me understand a little better the purpose of the ride. What prompted my post was I read a story about Columbia International Univ. not allowing their students to meet memebers of the ride because it didn't "adhere to their values". Although I know this attitude is based in bigotry, to me it's no different than student's at the women's college (I believe it was Smith College) protesting Barbara Bush's speaking there because her being a "housewife" didn't adhere to their values as what a college-educated woman should aspire to.

Your points are well taken. However, this year ER has not gone against any University's policy. They have fully respected the wishes of both universities they have visited. I don't think the Smith College thing is the same at all. We are not asking Columbia International to have Boy George speak at their graduation: just to have dialogue with students. Something that would be completely acceptable if they showed up unannounced on their own. As far as I know, as in most private colleges, these campuses are open to the public. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[pbtn]

Thanks. I now have a visual stuck in my head of Boy George dressed in his Culture Club outfit, giving a commencement at Bob Jones Univ. Very nice.

Thanks everyone for the enlightenment. I agree that "choices" was probably the wrong word, as I understand sexual preference to be biological as opposed to a choice. When I mentioned "choices", I was thinking overall life choices that we all make, some good and some bad. But I wasn't clear about that.

I'm not sure I see the issue with the word "lifestyle", but I guess that also implies a choice. I'm sure someone will clue me in

I see your point about just coming onto campus and speaking with students. In that case, I see what you're trying to accomplish and you're right, campuses are usually open ot the public.

[BruceChris]

The word "Lifestyle" seems to be a euphemism for who you are having sex with, and by implication, what kind of sex you are having.

As I am not currently dating, men or women, apparently I don't have a "lifestyle", any lifestyle, at all. (I can feel the withdrawal symptoms building, even as I type)

Apparently, a Christian Lifestyle, or a biker lifestyle, or a student lifestyle doesn't count.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Gennee]

Originally Posted by pbtn

Thanks. I now have a visual stuck in my head of Boy George dressed in his Culture Club outfit, giving a commencement at Bob Jones Univ. Very nice.

Thanks everyone for the enlightenment. I agree that "choices" was probably the wrong word, as I understand sexual preference to be biological as opposed to a choice. When I mentioned "choices", I was thinking overall life choices that we all make, some good and some bad. But I wasn't clear about that.

I'm not sure I see the issue with the word "lifestyle", but I guess that also implies a choice. I'm sure someone will clue me in

I see your point about just coming onto campus and speaking with students. In that case, I see what you're trying to accomplish and you're right, campuses are usually open ot the public.

Welcome to the site, pbtn. You and your wife are to be commended for your stance against intolerance.

I am a transgender person. I only discovered that I was this way a few years ago. After I came out, I realized that it was inside of me all my life. I never chose to be transgender, but I did choose to embrace who I was. I have been liberated and completed. I have gay friends and all have told me that they knew that they were gay or lesbian since childhood.

I have a saying that just because someone says something doesn't exixt does not mean that it doesn't. A double negative but it's the truth. How many families were shocked when a member of the family revealed that they were gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender? My wife was shocked when I revealed my transgenderism, but she has grown to accept it.
I'm so happy now and wouldn't change a thing.

Gennee

[tdogg]

Glad you are here, and I think you'll find it a very enlightening experience!

Lifestyle is more appropriate when considering the type of car you drive, house you live in, career, having kids or not, what types of vacations you take, etc. Would you consider being straight your lifestyle? Probably not.
My sexual orientation is a part of who I am, much like my hair color, eye color, body type, left brain/right brain, etc. My sexuality isn't chosen, it's inherently a part of my physiology. My choice is being in a relationship with someone. I chose to be in that relationship with that person. But I can't help myself, I am attracted to women (yup, I'm female).

The Equality Ride came about in an effort to open dialogue between participants and those working for/attending colleges which have a negative stance on GLBT students. Life is difficult enough at that age, without students feeling unsafe and having to hide. Parents have been known to stop funding their child's college after he/she came out. Students have been kicked out of schools, kicked out of their homes. Some even commit suicide over all this.

Most of these schools (if not all) enjoy some federal funding, and I don't want my money going to a school that oppresses GLBT students (or any students). They also enjoy some major tax breaks, again costing me tax money to pay for services/things that their tax money could have paid for. Just another aspect to it.

[scott snedeker]

Hello PBTN!

You have demonstrated a willingness to understand here that give me warmth and affirmation of what I already believe to be true. That humanity is evolving a sensibility in the direction of a kinder more cooperative world.

You are part of making this future happen. Thank you for making your effort.

It happens when I search in my being for compassion and understanding....for myself....and then feel for the same in others. I keep my focus on the capacity for love in people and away from distractions of fear, criticism, etc.

Multiple participants in this and similar hygienes of thought focus can form a culture. Some friends of mine are formally cultivating this culture we call A Culture of Appreciation. And we have found support in the most unexpected places

[Jennifer5]

Welcome pbtn! Glad you have you here!

I'm going to dive right in and try to actually respond to you question...
Although there are probably a lot of forum members and other who would strongly disagree with me, I have to back you on this one!

I definately understand what you are pointing out here and I agree with you. Although these colleges that the are being visited have AWFUL policies that discriminate against GLBT people, I do think that it is wrong that you would approach a private school in that way. I agree with the ER, I just don't completely agree with the way some things are being dealt with. I think that they have EVERY right to visit the military schools and feel strongly that they should. I also think that they have absolutely every right to visit ANY public organization and challenge/communicate/etc. with them. Just not private.

...and to anyone that want's me to explain why I back that opinion, I can. If anyone wants to explain what I'm not understanding, I'm listening.

Otherwise, I'm with pbtn on this.

[sauu4equality]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

...and to anyone that want's me to explain why I back that opinion, I can. If anyone wants to explain what I'm not understanding, I'm listening.

Otherwise, I'm with pbtn on this.

I'd be glad to help you with this. They receive public funding. Even federal financial aid for students helps the schools get more students. With public funds allowing their attendance to be larger. Beyond that I have to admit I don't know of any other government money. Some schools have denied that they have received government funds. But it is a fact that every school we've visited gets federal aid to help boost attendance if nothing else. I am fairly certain that all of them have non-profit status which would not allow them to engage in politics. Since they see being gay as a political issue and don't know how to separate religion from politics, their non-profit status should be revoked. As the Jewish non-profit lost it's non-profit status for making an anti-muslim political ad against Obama.

Also, the point I made earlier is while they may have special rules about activist groups being on campus, having 1-4 or 5 students deliver a letter to the administration or books to the library is hardly having an activist group on campus. It is completely legal for anyone to step on their campus at any time (during opened hours). No individual would be arrested for offering books to the library or delivering a letter. It is fear of the message that ER brings that makes them call the police. Their activism on campus policy is only there to attempt to shield their students and allow them to discriminate against whomever they wish. Something a non-profit is not allowed to do and something an institution given the ability to offer federal funds for financial aid should not be able to do.

However, they hide behind private property laws that are meant for residential and commercial property. Not universities being, even minorly, supported by government funds. If I wanted to go on the campus and deliver something to the library or the administration, I could do so. If I started discussing theology with a student in the library, I could do so without being removed.

On another note, I don't know if it is the best method to insist upon entering campus when they are lined up ready to arrest us. It allows them to use the corporate, homophobic media to show how "uncivil" we are. It reminds me of when activists wanted to deliver a letter to James Dobson. I don't know how effective it was to demand being allowed to enter. Unfortunately, while the public is so concerned with preserving the law (give me a break...there are so many instances of law-breaking that don't even make the local news...such as Governors using public funds to bring their kids to events they aren't invited to ), the theology they are teaching others is getting teenagers murdered across the country. Regardless of the law saying we cannot walk on land (private property is a ridiculous concept anyway), we have to be more concerned with getting our message across. And we have been largely successful in getting our message to students. As they said on the Clinton News Video, "Mississippi College students are talking about the church's stance on GLBT people." That is a victory in my book.

Ok, not quite done. There has been alot of talk about Soulforce being "intolerant" of Evangelical Christians. Not all Evangelicals take an entirely literal translation of the Bible or use it selectively to promote hate. Some have said we have no right to try to force our beliefs on others. Is this what we're doing? Asking publicly funded institutions to stop forcing conversion therapy (not supported by any major medical professional body), or kicking students out for stating a fact? We are not asking them to change their opinion. We are only asking that they stop torturing students or discriminating against students. I keep hearing that it's wrong to appear to be sexually active no matter if you're gay or straight. Then we hear from actual studentst that makeout sessions are rampant on campus by straight folk. This is quite a double-standard. Kick a straight person out for the appearance of sexual activity and then we'll start believing your BS. Kicking anyone out for a sin is really un-Christian anyway. If we are defininng Christianity as a forgiving faith that asks us to repent for sins rather than give up once we have committed a sin. Unfortunately, thanks to schools like these, Christianity is defined much differently by many these days. I found it comical that in one of the papers one of the students commented on one of the ER riders writing,"hate is not a value," by saying "how could they put that on a Christian campus?" How can they be so in the dark about these issues? Thank God for Soulforce.

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by sauu4equality

I'd be glad to help you with this. They receive public funding. Even federal financial aid for students helps the schools get more students. With public funds allowing their attendance to be larger. Beyond that I have to admit I don't know of any other government money. Some schools have denied that they have received government funds. But it is a fact that every school we've visited gets federal aid to help boost attendance if nothing else. I am fairly certain that all of them have non-profit status which would not allow them to engage in politics. Since they see being gay as a political issue and don't know how to separate religion from politics, their non-profit status should be revoked. As the Jewish non-profit lost it's non-profit status for making an anti-muslim political ad against Obama.

Also, the point I made earlier is while they may have special rules about activist groups being on campus, having 1-4 or 5 students deliver a letter to the administration or books to the library is hardly having an activist group on campus. It is completely legal for anyone to step on their campus at any time (during opened hours). No individual would be arrested for offering books to the library or delivering a letter. It is fear of the message that ER brings that makes them call the police. Their activism on campus policy is only there to attempt to shield their students and allow them to discriminate against whomever they wish. Something a non-profit is not allowed to do and something an institution given the ability to offer federal funds for financial aid should not be able to do.

However, they hide behind private property laws that are meant for residential and commercial property. Not universities being, even minorly, supported by government funds. If I wanted to go on the campus and deliver something to the library or the administration, I could do so. If I started discussing theology with a student in the library, I could do so without being removed.

On another note, I don't know if it is the best method to insist upon entering campus when they are lined up ready to arrest us. It allows them to use the corporate, homophobic media to show how "uncivil" we are. It reminds me of when activists wanted to deliver a letter to James Dobson. I don't know how effective it was to demand being allowed to enter. Unfortunately, while the public is so concerned with preserving the law (give me a break...there are so many instances of law-breaking that don't even make the local news...such as Governors using public funds to bring their kids to events they aren't invited to ), the theology they are teaching others is getting teenagers murdered across the country. Regardless of the law saying we cannot walk on land (private property is a ridiculous concept anyway), we have to be more concerned with getting our message across. And we have been largely successful in getting our message to students. As they said on the Clinton News Video, "Mississippi College students are talking about the church's stance on GLBT people." That is a victory in my book.

Ok, not quite done. There has been alot of talk about Soulforce being "intolerant" of Evangelical Christians. Not all Evangelicals take an entirely literal translation of the Bible or use it selectively to promote hate. Some have said we have no right to try to force our beliefs on others. Is this what we're doing? Asking publicly funded institutions to stop forcing conversion therapy (not supported by any major medical professional body), or kicking students out for stating a fact? We are not asking them to change their opinion. We are only asking that they stop torturing students or discriminating against students. I keep hearing that it's wrong to appear to be sexually active no matter if you're gay or straight. Then we hear from actual studentst that makeout sessions are rampant on campus by straight folk. This is quite a double-standard. Kick a straight person out for the appearance of sexual activity and then we'll start believing your BS. Kicking anyone out for a sin is really un-Christian anyway. If we are defininng Christianity as a forgiving faith that asks us to repent for sins rather than give up once we have committed a sin. Unfortunately, thanks to schools like these, Christianity is defined much differently by many these days. I found it comical that in one of the papers one of the students commented on one of the ER riders writing,"hate is not a value," by saying "how could they put that on a Christian campus?" How can they be so in the dark about these issues? Thank God for Soulforce.

Wow! Thank you!

You covered a lot of points there that I did not understand before! As long as these colleges an universities are receiving govenment funding and have open campuses, we do have every right to be there.

I atteneded the event where they tried to deliver the letter to Dr.Dobson and I was shocked by how Focus on the Family was reacting. I thought that it was crazy that we could not just deliver a letter, since they would've gladly accepted it from anyone else. I can see where this is really pretty much the same situation. Except, it's actually more extreme because there are many students at these schools that want us there. I feel sorry for the students who even have to be afraid of people seeing them talking to the Equality Riders.

I hope this helps you as much as it helped me pbtn!