How does it feel

[sailaway58]

When You have friends that are accepting of you even though you know they still believe it is a sin to be a "practicing" homosexual, how does it feel.
They may never say a word about it, may always have a good time around or with you, but in your heart you know they believe you are "in sin". From your side, how does the friendship feel?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

When You have friends that are accepting of you even though you know they still believe it is a sin to be a "practicing" homosexual, how does it feel.

They may never say a word about it, may always have a good time around or with you, but in your heart you know they believe you are "in sin". From your side, how does the friendship feel?

For being condemnatory and 'friendly' all at the same time?

Even physics teaches us that no two things can occupy the same place at the same time, and I don't think one can be truly 'friendly' or 'loving' and hold such thoughts about me and my brothers and sisters.

The rock in the road is their attitude about my supposed sin- which they keep trippiing over in their righteous glee to condemn.

How do I feel? I feel like such people don't know themselves (aren't aware) or the scriptures (don't care to know what's really there) and the meaning of the Golden Rule. They're playing some weird game called 'Love the Sinner and Hate the Sin', where the hate always cancels out the love. And they make it really hard to love them with their pasted on grins which are aggressive and smarmy.

It stinks. It drives me crazy. They are posturing.

Sure. They may have a 'good time' around me. But it's about them, not me. They get notches in their belts for being the suffering servants of Christ- or so they suppose. And the 'good gay guy' who puts up with this kind of crap- is doing just that- being crapped on.

There is no friendship, at not one that is reciprocal. And I can point to my sister-in-law and older missionary brother as an example. If they- in their delusional state- think what they are doing is loving- well....let's just say....I don't think they understand or experience the meaning of the word.

How does it make me feel? Like I'm being used.

(Can you tell I'm still workiing out my anger about this one?)

Before I go to bed at night, I work at putting my heart where my mouth is and generate love, warmth and compassion towards my brother and sister-in-law. I do it like it a kid who has to do an assignment. It's taken me a long time to get comfortable even doing it, but I do it. I try to see that their actions and thoughts are based on ignorance as is my anger. That said. It still hurts. And so, I generate love and compassion for myself too. It's a circle of suffering at times. And the only way out of it is compassion.

[Vanessa White]

I agree with much of Daniel's words, actually, all of them! When "friends" act in this manner, it is a type of posturing, and not being genuine at all. Agreed: those are not my friends. I have a work situation presently at which I feel very certain that many of those I work with find my company enjoyable, but due to their cultural/religious backgrounds, do not agree with the idea of, for my purposes, Christianity and gayness existing together in a way that fits. For them, it does not fit. "Love the sinner, hate the sin" does not work for me, because the bottom line is: sexual orientation, my being a lesbian, is part of my overall identity. Reject that part of me, and you reject ME.

To deal with that in a compassionate way takes persistence, and courage. I admire my darling Daniel for challenging himself to live up to his own potential in the face of that negativity; it is even more difficult in a family situation, I would imagine. For me, there is always that moment, ever brief at times, when I feel bitterness, anger, and resignation that it will never get better.

Then, I wake up the next day and feel a bit stronger, a bit more ready to deal with this in a compassionate, loving, and nonviolent way. As I write that, I realize that it is often that daily growth that helps me get by. Knowing that those encounters don't define me, and feeling more and more every single moment at how beloved and fantastic I am, to God and many others!!

[keltic63]

There is a sense from these "friends" that we as the "sinners" should be grateful that they are being nice to us. On the flip side of that, those people also believe that they are being something commendable because they are "loving the un-lovely" or whatever other words you can think of to describe the sinners. The fact remains that they think of us as "OTHER" and I cannot have a true friendship with someone who's concept of me is such.

Daniel and Vanessa have stated things beautifully.

I sometimes feel like I'm being used, tolerated for what I can do for them, but not really affirmed for who I am. I'm feeling that at my church at the moment.

[sailaway58]

Well I thought this might be the direction the topic would go.
I think in the mind of those that have the love the sinner hate the sin thing going on really feel they are reaching out.
I've been told things like they don't view "that" sin any differently than any other sin and they seem so proud that they can say that.
What I assumed is, as has been said, "...the bottom line is: sexual orientation, my being a lesbian, is part of my overall identity. Reject that part of me, and you reject ME."

Early in my experience I do believe the few gay friends I had shared with me a mutual respect. I never pulled the hate the sin thing but they knew I probably considered it a sin. We never really talked about it. They knew I didn't understand, and I never remotely suggested they should change.
I think at the time we were as close as we could be but I think now they were guarded more than I realized. It didn't help that they were just figuring it out for themselves.

[antiochian]

What everyone has said resonates with me for the most part.

Having people in my life who "love" me but don't accept my gayness is hurtful and frustrating. They are relatives, co-workers, etc. (oh, and my roomie still doesn't know, or isn't saying if he does).

I can't be who I really am around those folks. I can't tell you the times I've been told that I need to find a nice woman and tie the knot and inseminate her and make mini-mi's to populate the globe--maybe not in that exact way, but the expectation is at my age I should have a wife and an SUV. These folks don't get it--I do not want a woman, I'm pretty sure I never will want a woman.

These people talk to me about their marriages, relationships, their crushes, but I'm not free to tell them about the cute waiter with the great biceps and the smile that makes my heart race.

It's kind of like being told in a subtle way, "I love you, just hide that part of you.

[Vanessa White]

So glad to see you around!!! Welcome back.....

I agree that it has been frustrating for me in the past to not be able to scream out to the world about my love for another woman, especially after patiently hearing story after story about opposite sex relationships. It really sucked, especially when it is about those high energy feelings of falling in love, or just crushing on someone. The stuff that is so enjoyable to share with others.

[Alecto]

Morally speaking, if someone thinks its a sin but can keep it to themself, I'm fine with that. Yay religious freedom and all that rot. That having been said, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to want to hang out with this person. A fair percentage of my friends are some flavor or queer, and right now, most of the things that might happen in my life that would be worth talking about are going to be in some way related to something "gay". I don't like to think I'm living my life in the "ghetto" or anything, but I spend my weekends in some kind of queer space. I'm looking to volunteer at a big gay campground. When I go back to school in the fall, whatever degree I end up going back for, it's going to be utilized to help other queer people. In short, if it makes you uncomfortable when I talk about my sexuality, we really don't have all that much to talk about (a lesson learned from the closet, actually; shutting out one part of my life shuts out all of me).

[Vanessa White]

I agree with you, Sailaway, that those that love the sinner and hate the sin, are trying to reach out, and even offer support in their own way. It might have even sounded "good enough" to me a few years ago if a person with that perspective had expressed this attitude also seemed to be telling me this out of concern for my eternal soul, or that the "sin" of homosexuality is not viewed any differently from any other "sin". Today, I just don't have it in me to accept that. I feel like I am at the point in my life span development that I have to demand more than that, much more, for myself and for others in the gay and lesbian community.

I am just curious, sailaway, at what point did your shift in thinking come, as far as the "love the sinner, hate the sin" is concerned? Was there a catalyst for that shift?

I think at earlier stages in my LGBT life development, it would have been enough to have that, as I said earlier, but I wanted to also say that if I had been one of your friends, I don't know necessarily that I would have been guarded; that would have been good enough at that time in my development if I didn't have a high level of self-validation yet. I think having an acceptance of the "love the sinner" attitude can be in direct correlation with how much or how little, we love ourselves.

Make sense?

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by Vanessa White

I agree with you, Sailaway, that those that love the sinner and hate the sin, are trying to reach out, and even offer support in their own way. It might have even sounded "good enough" to me a few years ago if a person with that perspective had expressed this attitude also seemed to be telling me this out of concern for my eternal soul, or that the "sin" of homosexuality is not viewed any differently from any other "sin". Today, I just don't have it in me to accept that. I feel like I am at the point in my life span development that I have to demand more than that, much more, for myself and for others in the gay and lesbian community.

I am just curious, sailaway, at what point did your shift in thinking come, as far as the "love the sinner, hate the sin" is concerned? Was there a catalyst for that shift?

I think at earlier stages in my LGBT life development, it would have been enough to have that, as I said earlier, but I wanted to also say that if I had been one of your friends, I don't know necessarily that I would have been guarded; that would have been good enough at that time in my development if I didn't have a high level of self-validation yet. I think having an acceptance of the "love the sinner" attitude can be in direct correlation with how much or how little, we love ourselves.

Make sense?

Yes, it makes perfect sense.

Early on (16 or 17 yrs old) the couple of friends I had that were gay started the process. I was their friend before I knew and after I found out I couldn't help but still like the things about them I always had enjoyed. Both of them were older than me and neither were ever inappropriate in any way.
Later, my wife and I attended an anti-gay rally supported by our church and neither of us agreed with what we were hearing. At that point I still thought it was a sin but I didn't believe gays should be put in jail.
I have to be honest here and say if I was talking about gays in general I was rather cruel. Locker room talk and all. It bothered me only if gay had a real name attached to it.
As time has passed I just knew that being gay was more complicated than choice and sin. I stopped the verbal gay bashing sometime along the way and by the time my friend of 30 + years came out it was an easy transition to acceptance of GLBT as a human condition and not a sin. I already had decided it was not a choice.
I think I would have decided the same thing sooner if I would have had a reason too.

[Vanessa White]

I really appreciate when all of us, including myself, can look at the strides we have made to be more loving, to ourselve and toward others. It intrigues me and ALWAYS inspires me to hear about how far others have come spiritually, emotionally, intellectually. For saying words that can only benefit us all in some way, thank you.

[RedneckDyke]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

When You have friends that are accepting of you even though you know they still believe it is a sin to be a "practicing" homosexual, how does it feel.
They may never say a word about it, may always have a good time around or with you, but in your heart you know they believe you are "in sin". From your side, how does the friendship feel?

Honey, I don't need to practice anymore. I am a PERFECTED homosexual!

[paul]

Sailaway,

Thank you for asking. Inherent in your question "how does it make you feel" is the idea that how I feel is important. That's largely missing in the fundamentalist equation. Daniel hits the nail on the head, it's deletes the "Golden Rule" from the exercise.

It made me feel sub-human. Not quite ready for prime time. As a consequence, I hid in a closet and pretended to be something I am not, just to gain the illusion of acceptance. So I spent most of my life alone and isolated. Now that I am out, I don't have any 'friends' like that...just my family.

[sailaway58]

just to gain the illusion of acceptance

That is a powerful thought. And you seem so easily acceptable.
I sometimes think I should have quietly supported gay rights and friends. I chose to make it an issue, let me tell you why. Your comments only confirmed to me I made the right choice.
Years ago I had a friend that, like me, was outspoken with his opinions. We have sons the same age that didn't always get along and it sometimes got out of hand. Dang kids. Phil is a good man, strong in principle, etc..
One basketball game I entered the restroom with another parent that started a rant about Phil. I just listened and did not respond in any way. I could have said something as simple as , I like him or we get along, ANYTHING. But I said nothing.
Phil was sitting in the stall.
My silence hurt him deeply. He had trusted me. We worked it out but it took some time to heal the wound.
I learned that day silence can hurt.

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by RedneckDyke

Honey, I don't need to practice anymore. I am a PERFECTED homosexual!

practice makes perfect

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

When You have friends that are accepting of you even though you know they still believe it is a sin to be a "practicing" homosexual, how does it feel.
They may never say a word about it, may always have a good time around or with you, but in your heart you know they believe you are "in sin". From your side, how does the friendship feel?

Well, I haven't heard or seen this directed at me. If I did, I would probably feel grossed out by the person who said it. I can imagine rolling my eyes and laughing at them before being able to edit myself.

I HAVE been in the weird situation of having straight people speak ill of their gay "friends" to me, when their friends are not around to hear. What I feel when this happens is anger.

I find it the height of disrespect and dishonesty. Either you respect someone and view them as friend, or you think their innermost being is a sin. If you view them as 'sin' then you are NOT their friend, I don't care how much you smile and act like you enjoy their company. Because friends do not have this utter disregard for the inner spirit of their companions.

When I was a little undergrad, some of the "gay friendly" straight people in my department started laughing at a gay man who was part of our usual group one time when he wasn't there. To his face they acted like everything was cool and they were all friends - he and his partner went to all the parties like everyone else, etc. But when he wasn't there, these people made fun of him to me and thought it was hilarious. I found it incredibly offensive and they kept saying, "Aw come on, Zerbie, you KNOW it's funny." They pissed me off so much, they inadvertently inspired me to go to the bookstore and start researching the gay/lesbian section. From that, I catapulted into following and contributing to LGBT activism. That was 13 years ago.

More recently, a straight woman was chatting to me about a gay "friend" of hers. She said she had bought him a button with a slogan in support of marriage equality. But then she started telling me how disgusting she thinks it is that he has a boyfriend and that they must do "such disgusting things" in their sex life. She was trying to get me to agree that her friend's sexuality was disgusting, saying things like "Zerbie, you must think they're disgusting too," or something like that. I was pretty dumbfounded by the juxtaposition of "He's my friend, I gave him this marriage equality button, oh his sexuality is disgusting" my head was kinda spinning. I think I just said, "Umm, no, why would I think that?" and then went quiet. I was trying to think of a way to say, "Hey, ummm, do you really think it's fair to view someone's intimate life as disgusting and still call them your friend?" But I felt like it would have been really confrontational no matter how I phrased it, so I stayed silent.

[sailaway58]

One thing I don't agree with is that someone that thinks GLBT is a sin cannot be a friend.
I do think that if the person that thinks it is a sin believes it is important to make sure the GLBT friend knows he doesn't approve, the friendship will be superficial. Most likely only the GLBT person will know it is superficial.
These are the people that say, "I have a gay cousin and we get along fine but he knows I don't approve".
When it is like that it becomes as described by keltic63:

There is a sense from these "friends" that we as the "sinners" should be grateful that they are being nice to us. On the flip side of that, those people also believe that they are being something commendable because they are "loving the un-lovely" or whatever other words you can think of to describe the sinners. The fact remains that they think of us as "OTHER"

[Daniel]

And I wonder if I am throwing a bomb into the room, but I've been present when the banter about straight people was- shall we say- less than pleasant. Of course, the discussion (more like gossip) was not about loving the sinner, but the tone of the conversation (if you could dignify it thus) was definitely south of the border.

Born out of pain? Anger? Whatever. In the end is that an adequate excuse?

Gay. Straight. We all seem to stick together at times in some sort of herd mentality, afraid to stick our necks out of the dominant thought being offered, which is often a negative one.

Listen. I've said some very uncharitable things about my missionary older brother, who I haven't spoken to much in the last year: our last written interaction was less than savory- and I find myself still smarting at the thought of it. I let the moment pass when what could have been said should have been said (which brings to mind the' nice gay man' syndrome.....better to kill that dynamic off ASAP....it only leads...in the end...to unhappiness).

Will the breach be healed? Will this 'sinner' be seen differently? I have to confess that part of me is so angry that I don't care. Yet, there is another part of my mind that cares very much: not that I be validated by someone who invalidates me as a person, but that we are, seemingly, estranged and may never really know each other even though we are, biolgocially speaking, family.

So I say my prayers, and keep in mind that life has a way of bringing change when least expected. Sometimes we can't wait for people to catch up- or grow up. We simply have to keep going down the path we've chosen. And as is said at the end of Candide: make our garden grow.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

One thing I don't agree with is that someone that thinks GLBT is a sin cannot be a friend.
I do think that if the person that thinks it is a sin believes it is important to make sure the GLBT friend knows he doesn't approve, the friendship will be superficial. Most likely only the GLBT person will know it is superficial.
These are the people that say, "I have a gay cousin and we get along fine but he knows I don't approve".
When it is like that it becomes as described by keltic63:

We just disagree about the use of the term "friend." I would call the person you describe an acquaintance, a buddy, or pal, maybe a "friendly" companion with whom one can enjoy certain times together. But that is not what I call a friend.

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

We just disagree about the use of the term "friend." I would call the person you describe an acquaintance, a buddy, or pal, maybe a "friendly" companion with whom one can enjoy certain times together. But that is not what I call a friend.

Okay, I can see that. With that in mind I think the "acquaintance, a buddy, or pal, maybe a "friendly" companion with whom one can enjoy certain times together" is the step to acceptance and understanding. Get to these levels and you have a good or at least better chance to find a friend.