Student Expelled For Coming Out

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

Think about this, he will sut off his phone and stop listening, what has been acomplished? Have you made your enemy an ally?


Sadly, I question whether Soulforce is doing enough to teach it's members the true meaning of nonviolence.

I have decided to retract my two statements made on this thread. I do not claim to know the 'true meaning' of nonviolence. but have been made keenly aware of when it is not in the best interests of everyone to engage in a point of discussion which detracts from the discussion.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Daniel

I have decided to retract my two statements made on this thread. I do not claim to know the 'true meaning' of nonviolence. but have been made keenly aware of when it is not in the best interests of everyone to engage in a point of discussion which detracts from the discussion.

I don't know that I would retract anything... but maybe direct the conversation to a new message topic.

I am really impressed that so many people here are drawn to the principles of non-violence and want to incorporate them into their lives.

We shouldn't be getting down on each other for "not doing things right." If you feel you have insight into how the principles & steps of non-violence could be expressed in our words and actions with more eloquence & efficiency, please share your thoughts... in a loving and constructive way! And realize that people may not agree with you... and be "ok" with that!

I'm personally more committed to growing and learning than I am to staying in my "comfort zone." This might mean I will need to change and adapt as I move along this journey with you all. This might mean that I will need to encourage you to change and adapt as well.

We all have different strengths...

• Incredible Bible knowledge
• Limitless compassion
• Hilarious sense of humor
• Courage and willingness to speak out
• Ability to listen and understand what people are saying
• The gift of prayer
• The ability to write and speak eloquently
• Tenacity
• Humility
• Understanding & forgiving people who wrong us

Let's rely on each other to sharpen our strengths and improve our weaknesses... "as iron sharpens iron."

love you all,
Nate

[Joe Brummer]

I do apologize if I get too riled up about nonviolence. I realize I can tend to do that. I hope it has not offended anyone!

I would be happy to share anything I know about the civil rights movement and nonviolence with anyone who wants to know about it. I have been studying it religiously lately and could offer much insight to those who would like to have it.

I do feel that it would be good if Soulforce could add more emphasis on teaching nonviolence. The 17 Step Journey is a great tool for learning nonviolence, but I don't know that people know to read it. Maybe Jaime could add a link to the site that says "nonviolence self-study" or something so our letters to editors, our direct actions and phone call campaigns fall in line with the mission of Soulforce.

Gays and lesbians have tried many things over the years to win our rights. We are constantly told that the world isn't ready for us to have our rights. We are demonize at every chance the conservatives get, all do to misinformation. Nonviolence has worked a dozen times over for oppressed groups. I truly believe it is the only hope for us.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

I do feel that it would be good if Soulforce could add more emphasis on teaching nonviolence. The 17 Step Journey is a great tool for learning nonviolence, but I don't know that people know to read it. Maybe Jaime could add a link to the site that says "nonviolence self-study" or something so our letters to editors, our direct actions and phone call campaigns fall in line with the mission of Soulforce.

A more definite teaching and training program would be incredible!

... maybe even coaches & mentors....

[tdogg]

Well said Nate!!!

[NathanATX]

http://www.abpnews.com/944.article

[Dash]

With the Equality Ride underway, what a timely opportunity to address another case of spiritual oppression in Christian schools! There's no question that the little mustard seeds of hatred planted in society by religious zeal have grown into great canopies of evil. The insistance that homosexuality is evil and the ensuing religious war against us results in beatings, bullets, and bashings. Gays are knifed, whipped, dragged behind trucks, tied up, tortured and left to die by people who sincerely believe that God hates us.

In the context of what our martyred transexual, bisexual, lesbian and gay family members have gone through I would urge us all to keep in mind that we are not the perpetrators of violence. While phone calls can be annoying, insistant attempts to communicate might anger...there is no comparison between the violence done to us, and the protests that that we raise. If we cry out against the vigorous attacks made against us, I see no reason to add shame to our pain. We give our oppressors so much power. Let us not add to it embarassment for making our voices heard

Our history is not one of violence. Creating concept of the "militant gay activist" is a remarkably effective tactic of those who hate us, but it is untrue. What is true, however is the long bloody history of the Church against many groups of people who looked, lived, or worshipped differently. We are the victims of violence...nothing we have done in our protests is in any way violent. I thank all of you for the work you are doing, and I urge you to continue making your voices heard.

[Joe Brummer]

Dash,
I wish I could agree, but I don't. We have been violent to our oppressors. Even if just in our words. It is important for us to keep in check. To point out to each other how we can better this movement.

Having 300 people calls this man's cell phone is beyond annoying, it is violence. We can never retaliate in anyway. Even in our speech and words, and especially in our actions.

Comparison are no excuse. No matter what they do to us or have done, we must never retaliate in anyway. That is the whole point of nonviolence.

[Dash]

I must admit...humbly...I'm not sure that your perspective on telephone calls produces anything but blankness in my imagination. I can't concieve that an electronic signal from one device to another is violent...perhaps if we were advocating some violent act upon someone...but I know the love that grows here is incapable of that.

[Joe Brummer]

Dash,
Imagine you recieved 300 angry callers on your cell phone telling you that your beliefs and actions are wrong. How would you feel? Would you consider those people calling your ally's?

The problem with the calls is that in will not turn an adversary into an ally which is the goal of nonviolence.

[dewdrop_world]

By the same token, how can sound waves emanating from one person's mouth and entering another person's ear constitute violence?

How about when the one person is Fred Phelps and the other is a grieving war widow?

Violence is not inherent only in the action. It's as much in the intent if not more so.

James

[Joe Brummer]

If you look back at the civil rights movement lead by MLK, you will see that most of the direct actions were lead by the Student Nonviolence Coordinating Committee. If you listen to Dr. King's speeches, he talked of nonviolence and what it means constantly. Nonviolence was the heart of the movement. People were dedicated as much to learning nonviolence as they were the cause.

That is what I feel we as GLBT people need to be doing. Every move we make should be nonviolent. Before we can be assured of that, we must learn what violence really is and what nonviolence really is. I hope that as a community we can work towards that goal.

[jaltree]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

http://www.abpnews.com/944.article

The key quote in my opinion is this:

“I would consider Jason a Christian because so many of his values are Christian…. He embodies everything a friend should be. A lot of people are suffering because he is not here.”

It seems that some of these religious 'leaders' have a hard time differentiating between worship of Christ, and worship of the Bible.

[Mia14]

I think I still agree that we should try to be civil to this college president and, as Zerbie said, call his office instead of his cell phone because this is a business-related incident for him. I'll admit that I was excited when I read his cell-phone number and wanted to call him myself, but then realized how attacked and violated I would feel if I were he.

Violence comes in many forms. If someone were to call you at work and complain that they saw you holding hands with your partner earlier that day, you'd feel violated and also annoyed that they called you at work about a personal issue.

I'm glad Joe Brummer could better explain what I was trying to say. I'm learning, but still not completely able to articulate all the specifics. Thanks, Joe.

[Joe Brummer]

Thank you Mia! I have learned from you tonight and i needed that!

[Jamie McDaniel]

Here is the front page of today's Lexington Herald-Leader.

Front Page of Herald-Leader (pdf)

Full story:
Gay policy could hurt pharmacy school plan. National standards prohibit discrimination

[awediot]

Wow! Particularly the last paragraph... Justice may lie in the eye of the beholder, and thier bankbook... Caught the story on CNN as well but cannot find any link to the vid... Anyone?

Thanks for the update Jamie

[Dash]

We should of course be gentle and civil, yet our persistance, tenacity, and even audacity may be what wins the day.

Though the judge may have no intention of giving us justice, because we are after him every day...because we hound him...he may yet relent simply to stop our bothering him.

Though our friend may not get up in the night when we come to him in our need, because we continue knocking...he may let us in simply to stop our noise.

Though the world may not listen to our reasoned and eloquent arguments, because we are persistant and bold in demanding change, they may yet be moved.

I have spent almost all of my adult life in university communities. I have seen students rise up, and though the administrators have a plan and a purpose, because the students are so vocal and relentless, they do yield.

But if we are more concerned about the comfort of our sleeping friend than for our own greater needs in this dark night...he will never come to the door.

[Joe Brummer]

Nonviolence is much more than being civil and gentle. Leave all that to the others. Nonviolence is about love and nothing else.


Nonviolence is not about winning AGAINST your opponets, it is about winning over your opponett.

You wrote:
Though our friend may not get up in the night when we come to him in our need, because we continue knocking...he may let us in simply to stop our noise.

We want him to come to the door because he wants to, not because we made him. Nonviolence is not about making people do things, it is about making the WANT to do it because they have seen it is justice.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

Nonviolence is much more than being civil and gentle. Leave all that to the others. Nonviolence is about love and nothing else.


Nonviolence is not about winning AGAINST your opponets, it is about winning over your opponett.

You wrote:
Though our friend may not get up in the night when we come to him in our need, because we continue knocking...he may let us in simply to stop our noise.

We want him to come to the door because he wants to, not because we made him. Nonviolence is not about making people do things, it is about making the WANT to do it because they have seen it is justice.

Well. How's the water in here guys? I bailed out a few pages ago. Looks like things haven't changed much since I left.

Look Joe, how about at least seeing the sheer beauty of poetry in Nash's post?

You don't seem to be giving anyone the least amount of slack. How can anyone catch up with you when each time someone offers something their hand gets slapped for not being correct enough?

All 'bad dog' and no 'treats.'