"Homosexuality next to Satan himself"

[daniel Ray]

"I believe that the spirit of homosexuality is right next to Satan himself." That is what the pastor told the congregation during the Sunday Service three weeks ago. The following week a visiting pastor stated, "It has become a den of iniquity, because of the homosexuals," while refering to a seaside town in England.

I remained seated, and quiet, not such an easy task. I have been attending this church for only two months and have already grown to love this pastor and many of the patrons. They have shown me love and welcomed me but they dont yet know that i am a homosexual. Thier welcome has been graciously generous, the pastor even wrapped his arms around me and held me in front of the congregation on the same sunday i heard one of the above quotes.

My hope is that they will all come to know me, and love me for who i am, which would put me in a more powerful position to witness and testify. I believe that God lead me to this church, for whatever purpose he might have in mind. It is a medium size congregation (aprox. 200) and im sure there are some there who have homosexuals in thier families, or have participated themselves, although they would certainly be closeted. I love spending time with these people and the services at church are spiritually uplifting and encourageing.

I understand the risk for hurt and pain but perhaps God will use me to teach. I would like to know what your thoughts are about this situation. Also, i would greatly appreciate your prayers.

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of or confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:14)

"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." (Mark 9:23)

[Zerbie]

I wish you well, Daniel Ray.

Be prepared for the possibility of deep disappointment. I have experienced that people in such a mindset have been apt not to change their views of "Homosexuality" itself, but to change their views of the individual person they have met to shove that person into the category they designated for "Homosexuals." Even when it defies ALL logic and evidence.

I hope that will not be the case with you and your friends at your (new-ish) church. Perhaps you will reach just one person. Even that, in this atmosphere, will be a real victory.

[paul]

apparently.

daniel Ray,

I'm sorry...the pastors hug was qualified as is his "love." for people like him only. It seems to me that if he knew your secret, he would never embrace you for fear of being sullied by satan (you know, the guy "right next" to you).

My guess is that if you think you will establish yourself and then come out to these people you will be accused of being a deceiver. People will shield their young from you. At best, you will become a second class citizen in need of deliverance.

[Daniel]

The other Daniel here.....

Welcome.

I'm just curious. What made you want to attend this church?

Also- some practical issues come to mind here: I think it would be very difficult to effect 'change' absent a support system for that change. In other words, if you are the only person there who is bucking the system, then you will be the individual who will take the heat.

Can you- and are you ready- to do that alone? That's a lot to ask of yourself.

My sense is that real and lasting change happens in an environment where there is a great deal of active listening going on. And not just between individuals, but between groups of people.

Your chances of effecting change are greater- I believe- if you have others in the environment who will stand with you.

[antonyh]

I'm with Daniel here...find a church that nurtures your spiritual life and fully accepts you and work together with them for change. Your spirit is sacred and should not be defiled by blatant untruth about your sacred worth.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by daniel Ray

I am not a wilting flower. I understand the risk. I can handle the rejection as i have so many times before.

Now please dont forget the prayers.

We will remember.

I know you are no wilting flower and can handle risks/rejection (it's possible to get a feel for that from your posts so far.) However, even when you can handle rejection, risk, disappointment, etc. it doesn't mean you always have to, or need to put yourself out there frequently into a hostile environment. I strongly suggest taking it in small doses and surrounding yourself with 3D people who know and support the real you, even when you are strong. Doing those things will *keep* you that way, and make the whole process a lot more positive.

Wishing you well.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by daniel Ray

If i could have a posative effect on only one person it would be worth it to me, as well as them.

Any and all amounts of suffering that your would have to endure alone would be Ok with you?

Hey. I'm not a 'couch guy', but what you are suggesting is giving me the impression that you are setting yourself up to either....

1) be a victim.....or

2) have the oportunity to rip another person's face off (calling a brother in Christ a hypocrite?).

And the latter gives me great pause. That would be violent. And as such, isn't exactly in keeping with what this forum expouses- that is- nonviolent change.

Please think about this.

Again: I feel that I must reiterate this. The potential for a successful outcome is unlikely abesent a supportive environment- that is- others who will stand with you.

Now. If you are the Lone Ranger type, that's another matter. And if so, then that tells me that you may have some motivations which aren't being acknowledged.

A greater truth must be remembered here: big things (and the thing you are attempting is a big thing) is one of those things that falls into - I believe- the 'where-two-or-more-are-gathered' category. Right now, you only have you- and no one else to help you- to stand with you.

If standing alone floats your boat. Ok. I can see that. But if that is the way you want to do this, God Help You.

He gave us arms and limbs and brains: what you are hoping to accomplish - of necessity- needs more than what you can do alone.

[keltic63]

I'm doing this at my church, but it's only after 4 years of being out, they knew me before I came out, and these people love me. It's still not easy. There has been gossip. There has been rumor. there have been hurt feelings. I have the support of my pastor. I am of value to the congregation as I am the music director. If I stood up and called anyone there a name, all of that trust and work that I've invested there would be wasted. You being there for such a short time would make it appear that you planned this "attack" on their church, and have no doubt, from what you've told us that is said from the pulpit, this is exactly what they would say.

go find yourself a loving church, not one that has to go looking for satan lurking behind trees, and around each corner.

[daniel Ray]

I am not a militant Daniel. Just because you would not remain in my position does not make me feel that i should be moved. I have no hidden agenda. I am simply a man, with more in common with straights than not, who happens to be gay. Do you prefer reverse discrimination?

I am never alone. My Lord and savior Jesus Christ is with me wherever i go.

"Fear thou not; for i am with thee: be not dismayed; for i am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, i will help thee; yea, i will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness." (Isaiah 41:10)

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by daniel Ray

I am not a militant Daniel. Just because you would not remain in my position does not make me feel that i should be moved. I have no hidden agenda. I am simply a man, with more in common with straights than not, who happens to be gay. Do you prefer reverse discrimination? (Isaiah 41:10)

I never said I would 'not remain' in your 'postion'. All I suggested was that what you are endeavoring to accomplish is something best not attempted alone.

As Keltic has pointed out: he has the support of many at his church. This makes a great difference.

Do you in point of fact have that kind of support? If not? Why not?

[daniel Ray]

What i am attempting is to go to church, worship my creator, fellowship with other human beings, learn all that i can and be the best steward for Christ that i can be. If anyone there wants to have a problem with that then let them. should they decide to crucify me, let them do that also.

I have made a couple of new friends at this church, i do hope that they dont have to prove thier friendship by rescueing me. I would hope that the patrons there are more sensible and closer to God than that. And i believe there are at least one or two who are.

Just like living life in this hetrosexually dominated world, i have every right to be in this particular house of worship.

As i stated originally, i know the risks involved. If i wernt willing to take them i would have left the place already. I am there to worship with brothers and sisters who may be imperfect, as i am. Perhaps we will learn something posative from eachother.

[Daniel]

All blessing be with you!

[antiochian]

My first reaction was that this church has an unhealthy obsession with the issue of sexuality, considering you heard the subject of gays brought up during two (consecutive?) Sundays, but that's hardly surprising.

I would think that sitting in a pew and hearing myself described as being "next to Satan" would be emotionally and spiritually damaging. I couldn't take it. And furthermore, to monetarily support such a church...

Perhaps there are other churches you could visit before you get too invested in this one? I'd suggest do a little shopping.

You say the people are nice. Glad to hear it. I can't judge those folks any more than I can anyone else, but I'd caution you that some "Christians" have this mask of sweetness underneath of which lies vast ugliness. I'm sure some of those racist Christian grandmas in the 1950's baked lots of cookies for their grandkids and gave lots of hugs to their neighbors, but underneath it all they believed the African American folks 10 miles down the gravel road were trash...

[sailaway58]

I admire your idea and your desire to bridge the gap. I wish you were attending our church.
In the setting you are in you will be accepted if they believe you are struggling with this issue. If you have embraced your orientation you will face condemnation for sure.
I do believe that through friendship you might help others see you are not much different than anyone else. But the setting and people you describe, once out, will call you perverted, you won't be able to participate fully, (teach a class, work with children, serve communion). I doubt you will even be allowed to be an usher.
While you do this I suggest you find some loving, supportive friends.

[daniel Ray]

Thank you Sailaway. Wish i could attend church with you sometime. I am not unfamiliar with the types of christians that are two-faced. I am from a large family with many members who might fit that description. Even my immediate family members.

In this part of the country there is a church on nearly every street corner, I have already been to many.

I am not struggleing with my sexual orintation, that took place a long time ago. Currently i am persueing my desire to serve My lord Jesus Christ and to be doing my part for The Kingdom of God.

Have you ever felt that God put you somewhere or brought someone into your life? It is my beliefe that God led me to this particular church, therefore i am not afraid. In fact, i enjoy being there more than any church i have ever attended in the past. Hateful words cannot hurt me. Of course, at some point the truth will be known about me. If i am rejected, or even disqualified as a teacher, or membership denied i will no longer attend. It takes time and effort to build relationships; all will be revealed in the future. The loss of love would prove most painful to me, severed connections could hurt all involved, therefore, i will be most careful. You may hear that the worst has happened, I pray not.

Hope you are blessed with nice Spring weather fit for sailing!

[sailaway58]

Well, daniel Ray, like I said, I admire you. I don't know if I would call those that would condemn you two-faced. They have been open and honest about their view on GLBT issues.
Good luck!

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

Well, daniel Ray, like I said, I admire you. I don't know if I would call those that would condemn you two-faced. They have been open and honest about their view on GLBT issues.
Good luck!

earlier, daniel ray, you wrote that you could call the pastor a hypocrite to his face if he rejected you based on your orientation. here's what soulforce believes about our adversaries:

SEVEN "SOUL FORCE" BELIEFS ABOUT MY ADVERSARY

1. My adversary is also a child of the Creator; we are both members of the same human family; we are sisters and brothers in need of reconciliation.
2. My adversary is not my enemy, but a victim of misinformation as I have been.
3. My only task is to bring my adversary truth in love* (nonviolence) relentlessly.
4. My adversary's motives are as pure as mine and of no relevance to our discussion.
5. My worst adversary has an amazing potential for positive change.
6. My adversary may have an insight into truth that I do not have.
7. My adversary and I will understand each other and come to a new position that will satisfy us both, if we conduct our search for truth guided by the principles of love

I think these are good things to keep in mind when speaking with someone who thinks the worst of us. it keeps us from getting all dirty when the mudslinging starts; it's almost like a teflon coating!

and here me on this, I'm not saying that you can't express a firm opinion, or that you won't have those angry thoughts. It's not likely to work in your favor if you start name-calling.

[daniel Ray]

Yes, i wrote that i COULD call him a hypocrite. Not that i WOULD call him a hypocrite. Perhaps i should have structured that sentence differently. You are quick to imply that i might be a mud-slinging name caller which might bring you in parallel to the same. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Last night, sometime after my reply to Sailaway i realized that i have been defensive of my position on this entire matter. I had closed myself to considering what others were saying here, and not communicating. From my perspective however, some of you appear to be attacking, judging, and correcting. Just MY perspective. It made me feel defensive. People have been saying that i should leave, find a different church. I consider that an over raction to the words i quoted from my pastor. If i leave, i AM defeated, if i stay, i MAY be defeated; since i am unable to predict the future, i choose to stay.

I am not looking for argument, rather some encourageing advice. Zerbie provided such. Thanks Zerbie!

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by daniel Ray

Yes, i wrote that i COULD call him a hypocrite. Not that i WOULD call him a hypocrite. Perhaps i should have structured that sentence differently. You are quick to imply that i might be a mud-slinging name caller which might bring you in parallel to the same. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Last night, sometime after my reply to Sailaway i realized that i have been defensive of my position on this entire matter. I had closed myself to considering what others were saying here, and not communicating. From my perspective however, some of you appear to be attacking, judging, and correcting. Just MY perspective. It made me feel defensive. People have been saying that i should leave, find a different church. I consider that an over raction to the words i quoted from my pastor. If i leave, i AM defeated, if i stay, i MAY be defeated; since i am unable to predict the future, i choose to stay.

I am not looking for argument, rather some encourageing advice. Zerbie provided such. Thanks Zerbie!

I'm sorry you feel you're being attacked. That certainly isn't what I was trying to do. I was merely reacting to your words, and suggesting that you take a look at what soulforce is about, and what we try to keep in mind about our adversary.
I have offered advice, and it appears your mind is made up and you merely wanted affirmation for your choice of action. I'm sorry I am not able to offer that at this point.

that being said, Good Luck with your plans.

[daniel Ray]

Originally Posted by keltic63

I'm sorry you feel you're being attacked. That certainly isn't what I was trying to do. I was merely reacting to your words, and suggesting that you take a look at what soulforce is about, and what we try to keep in mind about our adversary.
I have offered advice, and it appears your mind is made up and you merely wanted affirmation for your choice of action. I'm sorry I am not able to offer that at this point.

that being said, Good Luck with your plans.

Thanks for wishing me good luck, i certainly need it. Divine intervention would be more appropriate.

I have not yet made a choice to take action Keltic, with the exception of posting this thread.

It would be so easy to walk away from this, perhaps i should, so far that seems to be the general consensus. I do see that i'm being stubborn, something like a mule :-). If i do leave the church i would miss the opportunity to become a positive example to anyone who may need just that in thier life. Obviously, this is a difficult position i'm in. I didnt begin attending this church so that i could become an activist or to cause any problems in any way. After what i've heard from the pulpit i think there is a need for my presence.