"Homosexuality next to Satan himself"

[RedneckDyke]

Daniel, We're not trying to attack you. WE're trying to tell you that you could get hurt. Sometimes people who have been in a situation tend to be a little abrubt to other people who may be just starting. Go to a meeting of women who have husbands that drink or abuse them. Sometimes a woman will want to stay with someone abusive and think that if she loves him enough they can change him.

Maybe that's what we are doing. Telling you,"Look, I'm sure you are a loving, honest, sincere, Christian person. And you think you can do some good. Change hearts and minds. Well, maybe you can, but the odds aren't great." Look what happened to Stephen in the Bible. Heck, look what happened to Jesus.

Anyway, just keep in mind that you don't have to be a martyr. God wants us to love people, of course he does. But I don't think God expects us to bash our heads against a wall. Jesus said "sure, go preach and spread the gospel. But if they ain't gonna listen, shake the dust off your feet and move on."

[paul]

Originally Posted by RedneckDyke

Daniel, We're not trying to attack you. WE're trying to tell you that you could get hurt. Sometimes people who have been in a situation tend to be a little abrubt to other people who may be just starting. Go to a meeting of women who have husbands that drink or abuse them. Sometimes a woman will want to stay with someone abusive and think that if she loves him enough they can change him.

Maybe that's what we are doing. Telling you,"Look, I'm sure you are a loving, honest, sincere, Christian person. And you think you can do some good. Change hearts and minds. Well, maybe you can, but the odds aren't great." Look what happened to Stephen in the Bible. Heck, look what happened to Jesus.

Anyway, just keep in mind that you don't have to be a martyr. God wants us to love people, of course he does. But I don't think God expects us to bash our heads against a wall. Jesus said "sure, go preach and spread the gospel. But if they ain't gonna listen, shake the dust off your feet and move on."

Gee Red,

That was very well put.

[Pablo Rafael]

This whole conversation is a difficult one. I for one have chosen to stay in a non-affirming denomination. I think it is important for LGBT individuals to have a presence in those congregations and help to change people's perspectives. However, I think in many churches I think it is impossible to do any good. The gay person becomes the sacrificial victim to prove to the world that they are really "good" Christians. Not that I think your church is this way, Dan, just how I see many.

Also a key concern that has been brought up by others here, is just how much negativity are you willing to endure? I am willing to put up with some negativity, but not willing to take on a major attack.

I think most Christians with an anti-gay attitude really do not have hatred in their hearts. They need educated. They simply are believeing what they have always heard. Education is having some effect. Young people are much more accepting of gays in the church than are older people.

The anti-gay churches need to be challenged. They need to know that sweeping all the gays out of the church is not an option. But our response as gay Christians should be one of love. We can show love without giving in. We can be firm and strong and loving. I think it is best not to burn bridges. In the future I think most Christian denominations will repent of their anti-gay position. I probably won't be alive to see it, but I hope future generations will.

[matthewspeed]

This is a good discussion to have.

There is a reality that most churches or denominations will not come to accept homosexual persons as members or accept homosexuality as a sinless and normal way of living, especially in our lifetime. I have come to the realization that I may have to attend a church that does not accept me of who I am. I choose to attend church mainly to worship God. I can walk into church, listen to the sermon, worship my Lord, then go home. I may find a few within the church to have quality fellowship with. But it is not my desire to necessarily change the churches stance on homosexuality. I have to first make sure I am worshipping God and receiving the spiritual nourishment I need.

I have attended open/liberal churches. Many have watered down the gospel message just for the sake of being liberated. That is not what I am looking for.

I choose to return to the Catholic faith of my youth. I have to accept the fact that the Catholic church will not embrace my sexuality. So I will have to keep silence as I sit in my pew and focus on worship.

Possibly, as I continue to to attend services, I will make friends and people will see my legitimacy. They will see me as a fellow believer. If I get close enough to others and eventually reveal my life, they will first have seen my fruits and will think differently on the subject of being gay and maybe they will revisit their views and see Gods love and acceptance towards His gay children. This will happen one person at a time. I don't have a problem with this.

If I am with my life partner, I would have no problems attending chuch together. As we continue to worship, people will see our committment to our faith and I am sure that some will accept. It may have to be a "dont ask dont tell" kind of thing. But this will allow families to have discussions about me and my partner when they go home. They may have discussions around the dinner table saying, " Hey, did you see those two guys in church? I think they are together." This will cause them to have discussions about the subject and will challenge them.

Sometimes, just being present without uttering a word speaks a higher volume. Again, the bible says that we will know other believers not by words, but by their fruits. (No pun intended! LOL! Just a little strange humor there!)

Just my thoughs ladies and gents!

-Matthew

[Pablo Rafael]

Originally Posted by matthewspeed

we will know other believers not by words, but by their fruits.

What did you just call me!!!

I will not put up with being called a fruit!

All of you are my witnesses. You heard what he said.

I DEMAND SOME MODERATOR ACTION HERE!!

[daniel Ray]

[QUOTE=RedneckDyke;52932]Daniel, We're not trying to attack you. WE're trying to tell you that you could get hurt. Sometimes people who have been in a situation tend to be a little abrubt to other people who may be just starting. Go to a meeting of women who have husbands that drink or abuse them. Sometimes a woman will want to stay with someone abusive and think that if she loves him enough they can change him.[QUOTE]

Thanks for your concern. As i have stated several times, i am aware of the risk involved in this situation. I have recieved training as a volunteer with abused, paraplegic, and mentally challenged consumers, so i have some understanding of enjured persons suffering various abuses.

Maybe that's what we are doing. Telling you,"Look, I'm sure you are a loving, honest, sincere, Christian person. And you think you can do some good. Change hearts and minds. Well, maybe you can, but the odds aren't great." Look what happened to Stephen in the Bible. Heck, look what happened to Jesus.

Anyway, just keep in mind that you don't have to be a martyr. God wants us to love people, of course he does. But I don't think God expects us to bash our heads against a wall. Jesus said "sure, go preach and spread the gospel. But if they ain't gonna listen, shake the dust off your feet and move on."

Thanks, i will remember that i dont have to be a martyr. And the next time i go bashing my head into the nearest wall i might be able to knock enough sense into myself to realize they "aint" gonna listen, but then i aint done no preaching yet. yet i say! In the meantime....i'll take your advice, God does want us to love, of course he does!
"A new commandment i give unto you, that ye love one another; as i have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples (as we go preaching the gospel), if ye have love one to another." John 13: 34,35 I need a sermon on how to use these quote brackets.

[daniel Ray]

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

This whole conversation is a difficult one. I for one have chosen to stay in a non-affirming denomination. I think it is important for LGBT individuals to have a presence in those congregations and help to change people's perspectives. However, I think in many churches I think it is impossible to do any good. The gay person becomes the sacrificial victim to prove to the world that they are really "good" Christians. Not that I think your church is this way, Dan, just how I see many.

I see what you are saying Pablo, its good to be present as long as you are not victimized. So far nothing has been directed at me personally, I have been welcomed with open arms.

Also a key concern that has been brought up by others here, is just how much negativity are you willing to endure? I am willing to put up with some negativity, but not willing to take on a major attack.

The attack here has been toward all people, it is extreamly dangerous and the words spoken could potentially harm several patrons in the congregation, including thier family members. The negativity is not easy to take and i'm sure not to be the only one bothered by it. I hope to be able to discuss it with the pastor one day soon.

I think most Christians with an anti-gay attitude really do not have hatred in their hearts. They need educated. They simply are believeing what they have always heard. Education is having some effect. Young people are much more accepting of gays in the church than are older people.

I'm in total agreement! I think it's an ungodly belief put in thier heads by a spirit of homophobia that attached centuries ago. Education is KEY. I have already composed a letter to the pastor explaining my views on how i believe god sees homosexuals as equal to heterosexuals and will present it when i feel the time is right, they need to know me better before i do that.

The anti-gay churches need to be challenged. They need to know that sweeping all the gays out of the church is not an option. But our response as gay Christians should be one of love. We can show love without giving in. We can be firm and strong and loving. I think it is best not to burn bridges. In the future I think most Christian denominations will repent of their anti-gay position. I probably won't be alive to see it, but I hope future generations will.

Love where your coming from here Pablo! I think the challenge should be to love, in love, the pendulum swings both ways, I could not stay without a love for these people and they could not allow me to stay without a love for me. It is a challenge, God is certainly teaching me in this situation, one of his masterful crash courses. I believe he will be merciful to all involved.

[matthewspeed]

Sorry guys/gals!!

Did I refer to us as "Fruits?" Just a little sick humor here. Just so you all know, I am not the most "politically correct" kind of guy!

I just couldn't resist!! C'mon Pablo, I know you chuckeled when you read that. LOL!

I cant seem to get these icons to work. Pablo, you are always using the cutest icons in your messages. I guess I'm not the most computer literate person.

[Emproph]

I also take to heart all the admonishments offered, but I get the impression that you have a better handle on the situation than is perceived.

I have to admit, given the hell that I’ve been through, striking out on one’s own, without support, in whatever context, does provide certain, and permanent knowledge of what challenges one is capable of meeting.

If you are secure with yourself, in the midst of the overall challenge, you’ll be fine no matter what happens.

Just from what I’ve read of yours in this thread, it seems you’re going in with your eyes open and with the conscious intent to ensure minimal damage for all concerned (including you), in the name of maximizing understanding for all concerned. Which to me, is confidence instilling laser focus.

You’re set.

Now please forgive me while I support your cause by making fun of your name by groovemeistering it to music…

Daniel Ray - Are you Daniel Ray?

(Except actually it’s Jimmy Ray - Are you Jimmy Ray?)


He's meaner, he's leaner, and he ain't no inbetweener. And if none of us ever listen to that song the same again, my work here is done...

[daniel Ray]

[QUOTE=matthewspeed;52975]This is a good discussion to have.

There is a reality that most churches or denominations will not come to accept homosexual persons as members or accept homosexuality as a sinless and normal way of living, especially in our lifetime. I have come to the realization that I may have to attend a church that does not accept me of who I am. I choose to attend church mainly to worship God. I can walk into church, listen to the sermon, worship my Lord, then go home. I may find a few within the church to have quality fellowship with. But it is not my desire to necessarily change the churches stance on homosexuality. I have to first make sure I am worshipping God and receiving the spiritual nourishment I need.

I hear you Matthewspeed! Worshiping God and receiving spiritual nourishment is first and foremost. A little fellowship would also be welcome while doing the above in church.

I have attended open/liberal churches. Many have watered down the gospel message just for the sake of being liberated. That is not what I am looking for.

No sir, watered down might dilute the meaning, while expounding and perhaps expanding could bring more lucid understanding.

I choose to return to the Catholic faith of my youth. I have to accept the fact that the Catholic church will not embrace my sexuality. So I will have to keep silence as I sit in my pew and focus on worship.

Possibly, as I continue to to attend services, I will make friends and people will see my legitimacy. They will see me as a fellow believer. If I get close enough to others and eventually reveal my life, they will first have seen my fruits and will think differently on the subject of being gay and maybe they will revisit their views and see Gods love and acceptance towards His gay children. This will happen one person at a time. I don't have a problem with this.

I do agree, developing friendships is a way to educate others about homosexuals Of course if they're close enough to see your fruits your legitimacy will certainly become revealed :-). (my attempt at comic relief) Your right! one person at a time, that is the way.

If I am with my life partner, I would have no problems attending chuch together. As we continue to worship, people will see our committment to our faith and I am sure that some will accept. It may have to be a "dont ask dont tell" kind of thing. But this will allow families to have discussions about me and my partner when they go home. They may have discussions around the dinner table saying, " Hey, did you see those two guys in church? I think they are together." This will cause them to have discussions about the subject and will challenge them.

Yes, i can see it. Hello, my name is Kiwi and this gentleman is Pomegranat, could we share some of your grapejuice please? I think you are correct, people will talk and that will eventually lead to communication with some. There would definately be discussion, i think your approach is whats needed.

Sometimes, just being present without uttering a word speaks a higher volume. Again, the bible says that we will know other believers not by words, but by their fruits. (No pun intended! LOL! Just a little strange humor there!)

Our presence is very important, i think especially in church. BTW i know some fruits, apple, grapes and bananna, i keep them very close to me.
I like your approach Matthewspeed. Keep it up!

Just my thoughs ladies and gents!

-Matthew

[daniel Ray]

Originally Posted by Emproph

I also take to heart all the admonishments offered, but I get the impression that you have a better handle on the situation than is perceived.

Yes, take heed of warning signs. Your perception and investment of faith is greatly appreciated Emproph!

I have to admit, given the hell that I’ve been through, striking out on one’s own, without support, in whatever context, does provide certain, and permanent knowledge of what challenges one is capable of meeting.

"Certain and permanent knowledge of what challenges one is capable of", so well said i had to say it again. I too understand the challenges of striking out on your own without support, quite a sobering, educational experience would'nt you say. Character building is what comes to mind.

If you are secure with yourself, in the midst of the overall challenge, you’ll be fine no matter what happens.

Just from what I’ve read of yours in this thread, it seems you’re going in with your eyes open and with the conscious intent to ensure minimal damage for all concerned (including you), in the name of maximizing understanding for all concerned. Which to me, is confidence instilling laser focus.

You have a way with words my friend. You accurately perceive my intentions to procede toward understanding without damage.

You’re set.

Now please forgive me while I support your cause by making fun of your name by groovemeistering it to music…

Daniel Ray - Are you Daniel Ray?

(Except actually it’s Jimmy Ray - Are you Jimmy Ray?)

Emproph YOU ROCK DUDE! Are you Jimmy Ray? Are you Johnny Ray? Are you Slim Ray? Are you into my scene? Do you think i'm takeing liberties? JUMP BACK! TURN AROUND! Now lets do it again.

Are you into my scene? Come take a walk with me, i'll take you to church if your feeling dangerous. Anytime man! The band is a bit rock n roll, i think you'd like it!

Ah! Good God! I am a believer! a reeper and a dreamer. I am Daniel Ray

He's meaner, he's leaner, and he ain't no inbetweener. And if none of us ever listen to that song the same again, my work here is done...

[scott snedeker]

Daniel,

The best thing you can do is understand your place in your spiritual/emotional development. You are precisely where you are supposed to be, right now but you will cultivate a new spiritual level as time goes by.

Right now you are allowing the trespass of your pastor. This is what I call sanctimonious predation. Your pastor is compensating for a personal sense of inadequacy by dehumanizing gay folks for gratification. Predatory gratification is a gross disconnection from one's inner spirit. Again as I observed in the past, Fear is the opposite of spiritual connection and awareness.

But while you are permitting this trespass, you are exploring here, which means that you are growing out of the mindset that allows this trespass to continue. You are discovering that you have a sense of entitlement not to be trespassed against in this way.

So I am taking a moment to pull you aside to ackowledge that you are trying. Don't judge your self because in reality, outside of Soulforce as I am sure you have come to realize many are are just waiting for a flaw or a fall. But the truth is we all get it right on one of these tries, and soon you will see how far you have come.

Some of the next steps for you may include: trading condemnation for tolerance: Tolerance for acceptance: Acceptance for being embraced.

Some of these changes may require small changes in you life. Some may require big ones. The one thing I would ask you to remember is to try not to hold back because of fear.

One big change I had to make was the abandonement of Christianity. Now that stirs fear of eternal damnation in many folks raised Christian. The argument raised often has been that if I don't share the same metaphysical belief as do leaders of the Christian church, then my soul will perish.

But I do believe in [God] although I use a different label that changes with me. And oddly, I believe Christ to be a human uniquely connected to this Spirit through his capacity to love, and his teachings coming from his connection. At this point the distinction dwindles down to interpretation of historical events, not a spiritual idealogical conflict.

And in my Druidic Pagan Spiritality I am embraced. Nature is cherished, Sex is a Holy connection to the Earth spirit who delights in my lovemaking! I am lving true to my nature designed by God which gives him the joy of seeing His creation fulfilled.

And those who condemn? I believe that they are so far outside of [God's] connection that they are not even aware of his plan, lost at sea without a compass. I feel their emptiness when I think of them.

So I focus on my own Garden in which to cultivate love, Lovers, Life, and joy