I'm a bit upset with Soulforce

[matthewspeed]

I responded recently to the thread concerning the Iraq war. I want to be very clear about my intentions.

I stated that I was upset with Jamie for stating that anyone who is for gay rights and also supportive of the Iraq war is NO friend of Soulforce.

I am upset. I am enraged!!! I stated that I am not 100% certain that our presense in Iraq is wrong. I do feel that we need to set a time table to get the hell out of there, but I am not totally convinced that the entire war was unnecessary. I am GLAD that Saddam (spelling?) is dead. He was an evil dictator, responsible for joyfully murdering his own people. I am glad that women are getting their right to vote as well.

I am NOT happy with our troups dying or innocent civilians being killed. But I am not 100% certain that Bush lied. I still think it is possible that he was given the wrong information, but then he may have covered it up after finding out that the weapons were not there. I just don't know. There are a lot of issues surrounding this horrible situation.

I know two things.

1. I hate war!

2. Unfortunately, sometimes war is necessary to protect our borders and our freedoms. Sometimes we need to protect other nations from evil dictators. But I also have the thought that we have no business getting involved either. It's a hard choice to make. Should we have stopped Hitler? Or should we have let him go on possibly killing millions more? If you talk to any survivors of the Holocaust today, they would tell you how grateful they were for being liberated by the U.S. I realize WWII was started due to the Japenese, but entering Europe to stop Hitlers Regime was the RIGHT thing to do. I am not necessarily comparing WWII to the Iraq war, because like I said, I have not yet come to the conclusion on my exact thoughts on the Iraq war. Am I the ONLY one with this dilemma?

But I should have the freedom to share my thoughts on this forum. But by Jamies statement, I am NOT a friend of this organization because I might be supportive of the war to some degree. I feel betrayed by Jamies statement. My thoughts should be heard and challenged. But I should not be exiled from this group just because I might be a supporter of the Iraq war.

[Zerbie]

It's an interesting concern. I vote for approaching Jamie directly, one on one with this. I don't think you're the only one, but I do think you're pretty firmly in the minority. Talk to Jamie and see if you can smooth things over any with him.

[matthewspeed]

Thank you Zerbie

I appreciate your response and your concern. I need to contact Jamie directly, but I also wanted to express my thoughts on the forum, since he publicly expressed his views. I invite others opinions on this. I am a big boy. I can take criticism. I always love a challenge. I think we should invite others with opposing views. It challenges us and helps us grow.

I have friends that still believe that my homosexuality is not within Gods plan for my life. I disagree with them whole heartedly and they know that! But they are faithful friends that would give me the shirt off their back. Now, I cant just "disown" them because they are in total disagreement with my sexuality. We have RESPECT for each other. That is essential.

I don't ask that others necessarily agree with my stance, but I deserve respect. Because I give respect to others, I demand it back.

[paul]

Hi Matthew,

I believe this was the statement to which you refer?

In this staff member's opinion, a person who happens to be supportive of gay rights and supportive of America's occupation of Iraq is no friend of Soulforce. For a justice organization with Dr. King's image as part of our logo, the latter far outweighs the former.

Could I be correct in saying that you are really "a bit upset with" Jamie? I understand that Jamie is a "staff member," but he also qualified/balanced that with the word "opinion." So, in the interest of debate couldn't you say "in this forum members opinion" then state you thoughts and feelings?

Has someone on these forums threatened you with "exile" or prevented you from voicing your "thoughts?"

[matthewspeed]

If Jamie says that anyone who supports gay rights and also supports the war in Iraq is "no friend to Soulforce," what does that tell you?

If I do support the war (which I haven't said if I do totally or not), then I am not considered a friend to Soulforce. I must be an enemy in Jamies eyes. I would not feel welcomed or a part of this forum. That is a form of alienation.

[Zerbie]

I think Paul's point is a good one, one that was made in the interest of hopefully reducing the anger/upset you may feel. At the same time, your concern is of interest because Jamie did not specify it as a personal opinion independent of his role as staff, but referred to his staff position when saying so. I can see your concern.

At the same time, running with Paul's point for a moment, even though Jamie is staff, he is still only one person and not the whole of SF. Let me put it out there that you make your decisions about feeling a sense of belonging versus alienation on this forum based on how you feel hanging around with the rest of the group as a whole. . . . Unless you decide that one staff member's statement in that regard is enough for you to conclude that this is not where you want to be right now. I can see why one could decide to view this either way.

Just sayin', in case my point is as foggy as my head right now (allergy attack), that if you feel you are gaining something positive from this group, why let one person drive you off?

[paul]

Originally Posted by matthewspeed

If Jamie says that anyone who supports gay rights and also supports the war in Iraq is "no friend to Soulforce," what does that tell you?

If I do support the war (which I haven't said if I do totally or not), then I am not considered a friend to Soulforce. I must be an enemy in Jamies eyes. I would not feel welcomed or a part of this forum. That is a form of alienation.

It tells me that that is his "opinion," as he qualified. SF is a community of many people, it is more than any one person, or even a set mission statement. I submit that if you are alienated, it is by Jamie, not SoulForce. I am not meaning to mince words. I consider myself a part of SF, so when you use the label "SoulForce" you include me. But I haven't said anything to alienate you, and I do not consider you to not be a friend of SF. And, as far as I know, no one has exiled you. You are still here voicing your opinion (and I'm glad ).

If Jamie had not qualified that what he said was in his "opinion," I would be disputing that he spoke for all of SoulForce. But he voiced his "opinion" and you are challenging it.

[paul]

Zerbie,

Thanks for your input...seems we were typing at the same time. We are on the same page with this. You understand where I am coming from.
paul

[matthewspeed]

Before we consider reopening this thread, I want to make something clear. Soulforce is allied with the peace movement. In 2003, Soulforce posted an anti-war stance.

In this staff member's opinion, a person who happens to be supportive of gay rights and supportive of America's occupation of Iraq is no friend of Soulforce. - Jamies quote

I guess I tend to feel a bit alienated due to the fact that Jamie is a Soulforce staff member. He clearly stated that as a Soulforce staff members opionion, that I may not be considered a friend to Soulforce if my views on the war differ. If it were just one of the many friends here on Soulforce giving their opinion, then it would be different. But he is a staff member. I wonder if he should have said what he said, being a staff member. I feel that he was using his role as a "staff member" to make his opinion more poignant. It may seem to appear like a reflection of the Soul force staff as a whole.

I am not that sensitive to just quit being a member of this site due to ones opposing opinion, it just hits a bit deeper when it comes from a staff member.

At any rate, I consider all of you my friends on this site. I would never say that any of you would cease to be a friend just because we have opposing views. That would be ludicrous. Debates are healthy. They challenge us and cause us to grow if we take it on as mature adults.

But I wont keep beating a dead horse.

[paul]

Hi Matthew,

I am glad to hear you won't flee the coop .

I feel that he was using his role as a "staff member" to make his opinion more poignant.

This point is logical to me. Jamie's use of his role as a staff member was an appeal to authority it seems, and possibly (but not necessarily) fallacious in my mind, since Jamie qualified it was his opinion. Can you appeal to yourself as an authority?, I dunno. I don't think he achieved perfect balance there.

We all tend to use informal fallacy when arguing our point. Too much of it and persuasive dialogue degenerates into a quarrel that benefits no one. Your use of the word "exile" struck me as an appeal to emotion, since we can all see you are not banished from SF. Had you truly been exiled, I would have been among the first of several to ask why?

I'm glad you are here and I am glad Jamie is here.

[matthewspeed]

Thank you Paul.

Though I still feel Jamie used his authority as staff member to make his opinion to seem as though it was a Soulforce viewpoint as a whole, I do realize it was his opinion. I don't agree with his reasoning, but he is entitled to his feelings on the issue. I respect that.

These are the freedoms we take for granted in this country. Thank God we live in a nation where we can freely discuss our opinions openly and publicly without being imprisoned or worse!

This is probably one of the most honest forums I have found on the internet. Many topics are discussed and many thoughts are brought to the table. I actually like it when another membe may disagree with me. I am not too stubborn to change my mind if I am proven wrong on any issue.

I'm not going anywhere guys/girls! You're stuck with me!

Thanks again Paul for your input.

[Zerbie]

See, I don't think we are successfully accomplishing anything here but talking in circles. Wheeeee.

I remember when Jamie first made that post and I remember thinking Whoa, that could have a deterrent effect to some people with regard to involvement, financial support, etc. What I would enjoy seeing clarified is to what extent that might or might not be part of an official SF stance, or is it in fact only Jamie's opinion. Recognizing that the entire conversation is risky, since a small organization could, presumably, hardly afford to lose supporters.

I still vote for bringing it up directly with Jamie. Otherwise we are all making guesses and in a position of trying to speak for him, or justify things, etc etc etc.

[matthewspeed]

Zerbie,
Well spoken. I will email Jamie directly.

Thank you Zerbie for your concern on the issue.

[tdogg]

I totally get where Jamie is coming from. But what struck me about the original quote was the "no friend of Soulforce". Perhaps that is the real issue. I believe most if not all of those involved in Soulforce would be opposed to the war (but I'm not 100% certain). But I'm equally certain those involved, where that the opinion, wouldn't consider people in favor of the war to not be a friend. But maybe I'm wrong?

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by tdogg

I totally get where Jamie is coming from. But what struck me about the original quote was the "no friend of Soulforce". Perhaps that is the real issue.

I responded to Matthew in the original thread, but your comment, tdogg, may have provided insight into what the underlying issue is. Note that my post from December was in response to a problem member who had been portraying herself as a friend of GLBT people (and Soulforce) but was provocative, highly critical of any activism that had a real chance of bringing about positive change, and continually repeating the misinformation of the far right on both gay issues and U.S. foreign policy. Several months of that culminated with her being banned and my stating:

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

In this staff member's opinion, a person who happens to be supportive of gay rights and supportive of America's occupation of Iraq is no friend of Soulforce.

In a more general sense, it would probably be better stated that such a person is currently in an adversarial position to both Soulforce and the greater spirit of the justice movement. There is a need for reconciliation, to make our adversary our friend.