TIbet vs. Iraq

[paul]

I got a letter from the "International Campaign For Tibet" today. I made a donation because Daniel spoke up and brought the deplorable into the spotlight. One person can make a difference by motivating many. Thank you Daniel.

I searched the letter for information on how the monies donated are spent. The letter indicated that donations go towards "supporting [their] staff in Nepal and India who record the stories of refugees and bear witness to the world of the truth in Tibet." The letter further stated that donations go to "empowering [their] work to consistently seek knowledge and work for the release of political prisoners...." and to "advocate for the Tibetan cause, both within influential governments as well as to the population as a whole."

We have a reactive saying in our country, that has almost become cliche': "you cannot solve a problem by throwing money at it." I do not think this is always true. I think it is imperative to know where our money is going when we donate to a cause. To blindly give money to asuage our conscience or earn bragging points, is a waste on many levels...the primary waste (imo) being the waste of improper motive. That gets into spiritual effect, topic for another thread (this ones already getting cumbersome, sorry). What is money? Isn't it the fruit of our labor? Isn't it simply a mostly universal medium of exchange: labor/effort/energy for money? As such, money can do a great deal of good if it is spent wisely. I cannot go to Tibet, but I can take my own work and turn it into fuel for someone else to do work in Tibet. Part of my job is to make sure I don't just hire anyone for the job and make sure I am getting what I am paying for. Still, money is the most common means on the planet for getting things done.

By now you have probably asked what does this have to do with the title of this thread? I'll tell you (finally ). We have recently been discussing the war in Iraq and Tibet, and I thought it would be a good idea to juxtapose the two and open discussion accordingly.

My own opinion is that the "war" in Iraq is about hegemony, not survival. As such, it is no "war" at all, rather a very prolonged act of terrorism on the part of the U.S.. Indeed, we are one of the greatest violators in the world when it comes to "terrorism" as defined in the U.S. Code. (see "9-11 by Noam Chomsky, pg. 16). Sorry, I digress.

While the propaganda calls what is happening in Iraq a "war on terrorism," many a person has tried to also justify our action because we deposed a cruel despot (only to replace him with another?). Has the death toll gone down?

If we ignore the propaganda about Iraq, the fact remains that Saddam's regime was cruel and the Iraqi people needed help of some sort (as do many people in many countries). I am struck by the fact that the Chinese regime in Tibet is equally cruel, yet there are very different methods being employed to oust the Chinese, than were used with Saddam.

These are some of my thoughts, and background for them. The questions I pose are: how can we truly help the oppressed peoples of the world, and how can we stop (and in the future, prevent) our government from being terrorist?

[Vanessa White]

Interesting Paul.

I need to think on it more, but my initial thoughts on this, are that I have been wondering, since Daniel did bring Tibet here and to my awareness, why is it that there seems to not be much of a cry of outrage about China, as opposed to the situation in Iraq? I am definitely in opposition to the war, in our having involved ourselves in it, and in maintaining and now developing a dependence there. In a way, to walk away from it now, abruptly, I fear could bring great harm to that country, some of that harm that we have created. It is now becoming political ammunition for candidates and other prominent figures to publicly speak out about their opposition to us being in Iraq, without the level of repercussions as there were about it in the beginning of us entering there. But, why in the heck is there not much public outcry on a grander scale, in this country and around the world, about what is happening to the people of Tibet at the hand of China?

A part of me believes it is because China disguises/hides what it is that is actually happening there; but the same could be said of what we "really" know about what happens in Iraq or in any war. Part of me thinks it is because of the upcoming Olympics, and in the spirit of goodwill and international competition, no one wants to make a big deal about it. I have to say, I always look forward to the Olympic games, watching them and cheering for our nation, but I am inclined to not watch my set at all for them. I truly believe that we are being shown a tiny sliver of what is happening there, and the sadness is, I think many of their own citizens, even Tibetans, believe that it is the way the Chinese government is portraying it: the Dalai Lama calling the shots from India and causing chaos to be in control.

I just don't buy it.....

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Vanessa White

Interesting Paul.

I need to think on it more, but my initial thoughts on this, are that I have been wondering, since Daniel did bring Tibet here and to my awareness, why is it that there seems to not be much of a cry of outrage about China,

. But, why in the heck is there not much public outcry on a grander scale, in this country and around the world, about what is happening to the people of Tibet at the hand of China?

A part of me believes it is because China disguises/hides what it is that is actually happening there; but the same could be said of what we "really" know about what happens in Iraq or in any war. Part of me thinks it is because of the upcoming Olympics, and in the spirit of goodwill and international competition, no one wants to make a big deal about it.

love:

One thing you haven't mentioned yet is, the US is not going to take a stand against China because we are financially beholden to China.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

One thing you haven't mentioned yet is, the US is not going to take a stand against China because we are financially beholden to China.

You said a mouthful: we are up to our ears in debt to the Chinese. They are paying for our War in Iraq. We did what most American's do when they want something they shouldn't have and can't afford: get out the credit card.

[paul]

Vanessa,

IMO there is another reason why there has been little "outcry" against China. I believe China has shifted in a great way from a communist country to fascist. I also believe the U.S. is a largely fascist country as well (scuse me, I think the secret police are at the door ). So, I believe that the U.S. and China are bedfellows on the corporate end of the spectrum...the money end strikes me as the dominant force in our country at least, if not China as well, while the actual 'governments' are almost facade. The U.S. invasion of Iraq is about hegemony, as is the Chinese occupation of Tibet.

The propaganda machine that continues to call the U.S. invasion of Iraq a "war on terrorism," is the same machine that gives China a pass on their particular terrorism. In both cases, there is a money trail behind the quest for dominance.

[paul]

is a failure to connect.

I knew some of my friends would respond to this thread, just cause they're my friends and they love me and don't want to leave me flapping in the wind . I have this problem when I write where often I say to little, expecting people to read between my lines, assuming. Or I try to cram to little into a tiny space. Either way, the result is I get some blank stares, if any at all.

So, I'm going to try again.

It seems to me that what is happening in Tibet right now represents much of what this site is all about, i.e., non-violent revolution. I paralleled what is going on in Tibet with Iraq because to me Iraq clearly was/is a country in need of revolution. They were in need under Saddam, and are in need under the current occupying forces. Revolution is necessary, in varying degrees, in probably every nation on earth. Tyrany is everwhere. So understanding the process of revolution seems pretty important to me.

My question remains the same. What can we do to facilitate non-violent revolution in other countries where people are killed or tortured for speaking out, for living their lives?

This seems a logical and essential question to me. I know we have several revolutionaries on this site, so I was hoping for more.

[Zerbie]

Paul,


Perhaps part of the reason you haven't gotten many responses to this question is that no one knows.

Seriously. If I knew the answer to nonviolently revolutionizing the world for peace and freedom for all, wouldn't I be doing it, instead of searching the internet over for keys and suggestions to my own little corner of activism?

[BlueGirl]

[QUOTE=paul;54257]
My question remains the same. What can we do to facilitate non-violent revolution in other countries where people are killed or tortured for speaking out, for living their lives? QUOTE]



2000 years ago, Jesus tried to bring that about too through love and teaching but it didn't happen. I believe the answer lies in what He said is the second greatest commandment ( Luke 10:27- Love your neighbor as yourself) and the Golden Rule (Matthew 7:12 - Do unto others as you would have others do unto you). If everyone practiced just those two commandments, what a difference there would be in this world, but the majority of professing Christians don’t do that, much less anybody else. And with human nature being what it is, it's not likely to happen unless God takes away our right to choose and steps in and makes us do it, which is highly unlikely.

Jesus said that the love of money is the root of all evil. Notice, He didn't say money, he said the LOVE of (greed). It is greed and wanting to control others and the lack of caring about how someone else feels (ME first) that is responsible for most of the hurt and suffering and problems in the world. As long as there are people, especially in authority, who only care about what THEY want and who are greedy and wanting to control others, it will always be like it is now.
My family situation is a good example to use. As I used to hear my mother and grandmother say, how can countries get along with each other if families can't. There's not so much greed in my family, except maybe some on the part of my nephew who thinks he ought to have everything he wants, as there is an obsessive need to control. My sister can’t seem to live and let live, you do your thing and I’ll do mine. I can understand the dictator mentality of Bush and other dictators or wannabes because that’s exactly how my sister is, a wannabe dictator. She thinks that whatever she believes and does is what everybody else should do too, and it ticks her off if they don't. The Sunday school teacher in my church (the one I mentioned in another post that I was so smitten by)is, I think, another one who wants to control, even to the point of wanting to control what foods I eat. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people like that in the world and God help the rest of us if they get into a position of power.

BlueGirl

[perejean]

I don't think there are any significant oil reserves in Tibet

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by paul

is a failure to connect.

I knew some of my friends would respond to this thread, just cause they're my friends and they love me and don't want to leave me flapping in the wind . I have this problem when I write where often I say to little, expecting people to read between my lines, assuming. Or I try to cram to little into a tiny space. Either way, the result is I get some blank stares, if any at all.

So, I'm going to try again.

It seems to me that what is happening in Tibet right now represents much of what this site is all about, i.e., non-violent revolution. I paralleled what is going on in Tibet with Iraq because to me Iraq clearly was/is a country in need of revolution. They were in need under Saddam, and are in need under the current occupying forces. Revolution is necessary, in varying degrees, in probably every nation on earth. Tyrany is everwhere. So understanding the process of revolution seems pretty important to me.

My question remains the same. What can we do to facilitate non-violent revolution in other countries where people are killed or tortured for speaking out, for living their lives?
This seems a logical and essential question to me. I know we have several revolutionaries on this site, so I was hoping for more.

Actually Gandhi did address this question, but it's much easier for us, especially those who consider themselves activists, to look outward instead of inward. "We must become the change we seek."

First of all, the country MOST IN NEED OF REVOLUTION IS AMERICA. We cannot bring about change in China in terms of Tibet; we can't even bring about change in the U.S. in terms of Iraq. What we can do, however, is commit ourselves to educating ourselves, our families and our friends about the power of nonviolence and the systematic human rights violations that our own country is committing.

We must also, begin the arduous journey of living our lives more simply, and testify to the need for this in order to create a peaceful world. Until we Americans comprehend that war is inevitable as long as we are consuming the vast majority of resources needed by ALL of the people on the planet, there will be no peace.

We can't have it both ways. We cannot live with all this material wealth at the expense of others and not expect to have our country at war with the rest of the planet.

Kara

[matthewspeed]

We must also, begin the arduous journey of living our lives more simply, and testify to the need for this in order to create a peaceful world. Until we Americans comprehend that war is inevitable as long as we are consuming the vast majority of resources needed by ALL of the people on the planet, there will be no peace.


Kara,
You said a mouthful concerning living more simple lives. If Americans would wake up and boycott fuel for unecessary traveling and get rid of our gas guzzling suv's, maybe we could make a huge difference. I realize that going "green" can be costly, but we can take smaller, then larger steps. But we still have our heads in the sand. One day our "kingdom" will fall. What will we do then? Maybe that will have to happen before a revolution takes place here at home.

[inca nitta]

Originally Posted by matthewspeed

We must also, begin the arduous journey of living our lives more simply, and testify to the need for this in order to create a peaceful world. Until we Americans comprehend that war is inevitable as long as we are consuming the vast majority of resources needed by ALL of the people on the planet, there will be no peace.


Kara,
You said a mouthful concerning living more simple lives. If Americans would wake up and boycott fuel for unecessary traveling and get rid of our gas guzzling suv's, maybe we could make a huge difference. I realize that going "green" can be costly, but we can take smaller, then larger steps. But we still have our heads in the sand. One day our "kingdom" will fall. What will we do then? Maybe that will have to happen before a revolution takes place here at home.

Matthew,

What you said is excellent. Americans are definitely consumed by material greed, especially wanting to drive those big time SUVs. Wanting more and more, will lead to our "kingdom" falling, thus wanting smaller things could make a huge difference.

[kara speltz]

I'm plesantly surprised to see agreement on this, but let's take it up a notch. I know for me it's so easy to be critical of "America," and to blame it on our greedy culture or dishonest politicians. What's so important about nonviolence is that Gandhi keeps reminding us that it is "we" who have to change, not "they." What can we do to begin this process?

I'm a huge fan of the "paying it forward" plan. Oprah recently showed Americans how easy it really is to get involved in others lives and to move from "getting" to "giving."

At the risk of hijacking this thread, what specific things could each of us do to begin to change ourselves and in the process our communities?

Kara

[Pablo Rafael]

Originally Posted by paul

My question remains the same. What can we do to facilitate non-violent revolution in other countries where people are killed or tortured for speaking out, for living their lives?

Tough question there. One thing I think we can do is to stop interfering in the politics of other nations in order to gain advantage for ourself. We have so often helped keep oppressive governments in power if they helped our financial or military interests.

The oppressive government of the Shah of Iran was kept in power by the US until he could no longer hold on. The revolution sent Iran into the hands of religious fundamentalists. The communists gained power in Cuba to get rid of the United States and its corporations that totally controlled Cuba. We supported the Nationalists in China before the revolution. Also we have helped remove democratically elected governments like in Guatemala when they went counter to our interests.

We have economic and military influence in the world. So often we have used our influence to get gain for our own country rather than to help effect change in the lives of those oppressed and destitute. We have the financial power to make the Chinese government take notice of us right now. We could help the situation in Tibet. (But any disruption in trade with China will raise the prices that we pay at Wal-Mart.)

At the time I wasn't particularly supportive of Jimmy Carter as president. Dang, I'm getting old aren't I? Looking back I have come to admire his efforts to improve human rights around the world. When did we become "America only" in our attitude? And how did the Christian right get so tied to the this idea?

Originally Posted by kara speltz

What we can do, however, is commit ourselves to educating ourselves, our families and our friends about the power of nonviolence and the systematic human rights violations that our own country is committing.
We can't have it both ways. We cannot live with all this material wealth at the expense of others and not expect to have our country at war with the rest of the planet.

Good thoughts, Kara. As a kid I thought that the United States was always right and always good. A closer look shows that not to be the case. I think the US is one of the greatest countries in the world, but we have a responsibility to do much for the rest of the world since we have so much of the wealth. The love for others that the Bible so clearly teaches needs put in action here in our own country.

Originally Posted by matthewspeed

Until we Americans comprehend that war is inevitable as long as we are consuming the vast majority of resources needed by ALL of the people on the planet, there will be no peace.

I hate to admit it, but I think Matthew has a good point here. (I knew we kept him around for something. ) We are conditioned to always need more, comsume more, buy more. Like, who needs a new set of 500 count Egyptian cotton sheets when there is nothing wrong with the old ones? Who needs a 4000sq ft home? Who needs a huge SUV to carry one person?

I am starting to ramble, so it's time to head elsewhere.

[BenL]

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

I hate to admit it, but I think Matthew has a good point here. (I knew we kept him around for something. ) We are conditioned to always need more, comsume more, buy more. Like, who needs a new set of 500 count Egyptian cotton sheets when there is nothing wrong with the old ones? Who needs a 4000sq ft home? Who needs a huge SUV to carry one person?

I usually bridle at the bumper-sticker, sound-bite mentality, but I did see one recently that says so much to your collective points:

Live simply that others may simply live.

[paul]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

I'm plesantly surprised to see agreement on this, but let's take it up a notch. I know for me it's so easy to be critical of "America," and to blame it on our greedy culture or dishonest politicians. What's so important about nonviolence is that Gandhi keeps reminding us that it is "we" who have to change, not "they." What can we do to begin this process?

I'm a huge fan of the "paying it forward" plan. Oprah recently showed Americans how easy it really is to get involved in others lives and to move from "getting" to "giving."

At the risk of hijacking this thread, what specific things could each of us do to begin to change ourselves and in the process our communities?

Kara

Sorry all, I just realized that I got some more responses to this thread. Happened on a Saturday, then got buried...I am typically not around weekends.

Kara, don't worry about "hijacking this thread." I really only wanted to get discussion going, thought. I agree with your initial quote: "we must become the change we seek." That kind of goes hand in hand with my signature quote: "you are the world."

To answer your question, a bit. I am a big proponent of living locally. I raise a good deal of my own food and give quite a bit away. I will talk about organic farming to anyone who will listen. If each of us would raise even a little of our own food, or buy locally (local farmers market), there are several systems we would be bucking. For instance, mega farm factories, pollution from insecticides, fertilizers. Long distance transporting of food, exploitation of farm labor, the GMO industry. I know, that seems like quite a list, but simply by knowing the farmer who raises your food, we get in touch with one of the most basic components of life. It is a revolution in itself.