My Conservative Father Made a Good Point

[Tinkerbell047]

My father (who is 72) is a conservative, Nondenominational, Republican ordained minister. I am his 18-year-old,"not straight," socially liberal daughter. We tend to butt heads quite frequently, especially on the issues regarding the GLBT community.

The other night, my father received an email from his sister about a Pride Parade in her home town, and how disgusted she was by it. My father made me read said email. I was disgusted by the hatred that she had put into the letter, and the obvious gay bashing that she was doing. I finished reading the email, and said nothing. My father sat down in his chair and asked me what I thought. I decided against responding. It was then that he said something profound, and something that made sense to me. He looked at me, and, though not in the kindest tone of voice, he said, "people don't want to be forced to see it. They don't want to know about another couples sex lives. We don't want someone else's intimate life forced upon us. If the gays would explain their points, make their arguments without the Pride Parades, and Pride Weekends, and rainbow days at ball parks, maybe people would be more willing to listen to them."

Maybe my father has a point in this. The GLBT community says that we don't want "special" treatment, but that we want "equal" treatment. But, maybe, just maybe, in some cases we try so hard to fine equality that we force closed the eyes of some people. Many of the men and women I know don't so much have a problem with the gay community, as the way the gay community goes about its business and are so turned off by the way we try to reach our issues that they don't want to stick around to hear the rest.

I'm only 18, and I'm still in high school. I will freely admit that I don't know much about the "real world," but, maybe my dad's point is a valid one. We all know that when the Right does and says things that are over the top we don't always stop to hear their points, maybe we should go about our demonstrations in a way that is more open and straight-friendly, maybe if we made our arguments in a more, for lack of a better term, conservative manner the Conservative people would be more willing to listen to us.

With love and blessings,
-Tink

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by Tinkerbell047

My father (who is 72) is a conservative, Nondenominational, Republican ordained minister. I am his 18-year-old,"not straight," socially liberal daughter. We tend to butt heads quite frequently, especially on the issues regarding the GLBT community.

The other night, my father received an email from his sister about a Pride Parade in her home town, and how disgusted she was by it. My father made me read said email. I was disgusted by the hatred that she had put into the letter, and the obvious gay bashing that she was doing. I finished reading the email, and said nothing. My father sat down in his chair and asked me what I thought. I decided against responding. It was then that he said something profound, and something that made sense to me. He looked at me, and, though not in the kindest tone of voice, he said, "people don't want to be forced to see it. They don't want to know about another couples sex lives. We don't want someone else's black skin forced upon us. If the negros would explain their points, make their arguments without the Pride Parades, and Pride Weekends, and Martin luther King holidays at ball parks, maybe people would be more willing to listen to them."

Maybe my father has a point in this. The Black community says that we don't want "special" treatment, but that we want "equal" treatment. But, maybe, just maybe, in some cases we try so hard to fine equality that we force closed the eyes of some people. Many of the men and women I know don't so much have a problem with the black community, as the way the black community goes about its business and are so turned off by the way we try to reach our issues that they don't want to stick around to hear the rest.

I'm only 18, and I'm still in high school. I will freely admit that I don't know much about the "real world," but, maybe my dad's point is a valid one. We all know that when the Right does and says things that are over the top we don't always stop to hear their points, maybe we should go about our demonstrations in a way that is more open and straight-friendly, maybe if we made our arguments in a more, for lack of a better term, conservative manner the Conservative people would be more willing to listen to us.

With love and blessings,
-Tink

Try reading this argument by substituting another minority in place of gay(as I did in red) and see what it reads like. Now imagine reading your father's response to his black daughter.

In the state of Florida that would be legally defined as domestic violence.

It is only his homophobia (against which he is struggling for your sake I'm sure) that blinds him to what he is saying. I would ask him as an intellectual exercise to do so and see if he has an illumination.

Pride days are mostly for us. We need to feel empowered from time to time as compensation for the oppression that we endure every day.

Others can either see the goodness of it, or they can look at it with disgust and anger. It is up to them. It is not my responsibilty to prevent their disappointment or hate or disgust. (Previously I believed it was because my self esteem was lower than a putrid cockroach)

[OtterXero]

Plus, he's making the assumption that all the couples are sexually active, which isn't always the case, especially since not even all gay men in relationship engage in anal sex, which I'm sure is the one thing he's certainly invisioning. In the same way, though, going with your dad's point, you could argue you don't want to see heterosexual holding hands and imagining their sex lives. But you don't do that, do you? No, and it's probably because sex isn't equated so much with heterosexuality as it is homosexuality, at least in your dad's case. I know my dad has made similar comments about forcing people to make a decision when they gay couples, but I disagree. They need to learn not to think sex, omg!, everytime they see a same-gender loving couple. (^_~ @ Scotty.) Oh, and yes, Scotty did have a very good point, one I've made with my dad, although specifically about interacial couples as that was illegal in parts of the U.S. until the beginning of the 70s (a time he lived through), reinforced by religious and cultural beliefs, etc. and how people don't consider that wrong now nor does my dad, but that wasn ot the case when he was born. I think I actually got to him with that point. We have to be visible to get the point where people are just used to it. (Mind you, I'm not talking about pride parades, but just holding my boyfriends hand in public.)

A very insightful and wise post by you, though. We're just attacking your dad's argument, not you ^_^.

[OtterXero]

AHHH! I didn't realize that was you, Tink. How in the world did I make that mistake. Well... now you know how I would talk to you informally online if I just met you ^_^.

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Hi Tink,

I think the really important point has already been made above by Scotty. Your dad and aunt have the belief that it is somehow OUR responsibility to protect them from seeing and thinking about things that make them uncomfortable and that because homosexuality makes them uncomfortable that it is our responsibility to remain invisible. It is not.

I don't like to think about over-weight people having sex or really old people having sex. I'm glad they do and I'm glad it makes them happy! I just don't like to picture it. So I don't. It's that easy!

Pride parades are well publicized in advance and highly localized. They are unlikely to be surprised by a sudden and spontaneous pride parade going down their street. Televisions have on/off switches and volume controls so watching the evening news isn't required. If your aunt is watching and being disgusted by pride parades its a pretty good bet that its because she WANTS TO. Think about it. there are few feelings as satisfying as righteous indignation. Your aunt just enjoys getting her dander up. Its good for her circulation and gives her cheeks a rosey glow. God love her.

When we have a pride parade or when Jody and his bf hold hands in public it reminds your dad and your aunt that the world isn't as simple as they had thought it was or as they wish it were. This pisses them off. What they are really saying is: "Its fine for you to be gay as long as you are willing to help us pretend that you are not" I'm sorry but I am WAY TOO BUSY to invest any time or energy in THAT.

Eventually, they will discover that a world in which some boys and girls like other boys and girls is just as swell as a world in which boys only like girls and vice a versa. Just like Jody's dad has realized that a world in which black people marry white people is pretty much the same as a world in which black people only marry black people and white people only marry white people.

Find a way to say to your dad: "Dad, I love you... but not enough to disappear for you" He'll get it eventually.

Really well put U-Dog! I'm gonna steal it! Much better and clearer than my post!

[Alecto]

This reeks, to me, of "don't flaunt it". Heteros flaunt all the time, so I feel no obligation to keep my relationships "in the bedroom".

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

Try reading this argument by substituting another minority in place of gay(as I did in red) and see what it reads like. Now imagine reading your father's response to his black daughter.

Scott, I had the same thought about substituting another minority, my first choice was black also.


I guess I can explain from my point of view. Pride is the only time I can hold my wifes hand and hug and kiss her and not have to worry about someone trying to harm or hurt us, maybe kill us or yell dirty things at us. It is about liberation and the feeling of community, feeling not alone like we are not the only one.

In reguards about other peoples/couples sex lives. He apparently has reduced all gay people down to simply sex. I resent that immensely. Even if I never had sex again I would still be gay. I was once married to a man, and you guessed it, I was STILL gay. Gay is who I am, not what I do in my bedroom.

I also do not want to know about heterosexuals sex lives. I don't want my children seeing them makeout in public, hold hands to proclaim they are a couple, after all, couples have sex, or hug each other because that can be seen as foreplay. I really am ok with straight couples, as long as they don't try to force their ways on me.....sound familiar?

Yes, I want to be equal, I was to legally marry the woman I love. I want to have my wifes insurance cover me also, I want to save thousand of dollars wasted on attorney fees to protect my assets that I would not have to spend if I could legally marry. I want to be able to help her with her coat in public, hold her hand or kiss her cheek and not be spat on, threatened or even looked at like I'm sick. I want my children to be able to introduce her moms and not have people keep their children form plaing with them. I could go on and on.

People need to stop making excuses to justify keeping me unequal. Saying "we would accept them as long as they do this or that or are not too gay..." is just another excuse.

Unfortunately, my father is exactly the same way.

[RedneckDyke]

Noone is forced to see anything. I get tired of people griping about PRide parades. One weekend a year there's a parade. And out of a hundred people marching, maybe ten will be wearing leather or something that exposes some body parts. BIG DEAL! If you don't want to see it, don't watch it. There are perfectly good detours around the parade sites.
Women show thier boobies every year at Mardi GRas and no one says "Oh my God look at those immoral heteros! Decent people shouldn't be forced to see that.!" Guess what, if you don't like it, don't go to Mardi GRas!

[paul]

My father sat down in his chair and asked me what I thought. I decided against responding. It was then that he said something profound, and something that made sense to me. He looked at me, and, though not in the kindest tone of voice, he said, "people don't want to be forced to see it. They don't want to know about another couples sex lives. We don't want someone else's intimate life forced upon us.

Really? Tell your father he needs to rip the book "Song of Songs" from his bible then, as well as other portions.

[antiochian]

Hi, Tinkerbell.

I'd only like to add this. Imagine if your father were to be informed at how his openness about his Christianity offended others, and were told, "I don't care if you're Christian as long as you never talk about, I never see you holding a Bible, and as long as you take down all Jesus pictures and scripture plaques when I come to your house, so I'm not exposed to it."
He'd probably have a holy fit. He'd probably say that in a democracy he has every right to be open about his faith, and he'd be right. Granted, people can be too in your face about religion, but they also have the right to talk about it, and be open about it. Yet these same people oftentimes want to deny others, namely lbgt folks, that same right, the right to be open and honest about who one is. Get the picture?

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by RedneckDyke

Women show thier boobies every year at Mardi GRas and no one says "Oh my God look at those immoral heteros! Decent people shouldn't be forced to see that.!" Guess what, if you don't like it, don't go to Mardi GRas!

My mother said the same exact thing when I told her about this post!

[Gennee]

A common notion is that being LGBT is all about sex, and it isn't. It about who we are as people. In order to understand someone who is different, people need to be willing get to know that person or group and find some common ground. When I discovered that I was transgender I didn't feel comfortable for a while. Learning and trying to relate is not always comfortable but it can open up the doors to undersanding and acceptance.

Gennee

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by RedneckDyke

Noone is forced to see anything. I get tired of people griping about PRide parades. One weekend a year there's a parade. And out of a hundred people marching, maybe ten will be wearing leather or something that exposes some body parts. BIG DEAL! If you don't want to see it, don't watch it. There are perfectly good detours around the parade sites.
Women show thier boobies every year at Mardi GRas and no one says "Oh my God look at those immoral heteros! Decent people shouldn't be forced to see that.!" Guess what, if you don't like it, don't go to Mardi GRas!

You can see boobies at Mardi Gras? When is this event?

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

You can see boobies at Mardi Gras? When is this event?

I think it is in March or April. That is how the girls get beads, they flash for em! I'll ask my co-worker, her brother lives in New Orleans.

Of course, you do know that the reason they got washed out with a huricane is because of all us immoral gay people down there. It does make one wonder that the gay portion on the state was not flooded and also Mardie Gras is considered is straight celebration. Hence, all the sraight people having sex on the street down there and getting naked. (I wish I could remember who made an ass out of themselves by saying that!)

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

I think it is in March or April. That is how the girls get beads, they flash for em! I'll ask my co-worker, her brother lives in New Orleans.

Of course, you do know that the reason they got washed out with a huricane is because of all us immoral gay people down there. It does make one wonder that the gay portion on the state was not flooded and also Mardie Gras is considered is straight celebration. Hence, all the sraight people having sex on the street down there and getting naked. (I wish I could remember who made an ass out of themselves by saying that!)

I remember that accusation too. there was to be a big circuit party in NO, but the hurricane hit about a week before. one of the televangelists claimed it was because God didn't want that kind of perversity going on. I'm puzzled as to why God didn't wait another week and wipe out all the gay party goers. he's God afterall, right? couldn't he have timed that storm to hit just as the circuit boys hit the dance floor?

[BlueGirl]

I don't remember if I heard anyone say it was specifically because of gays or not but I did hear on the news that Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham, said it was a "wake up call". I would have thought better of him than to say something that ignorant. He seems to be more fundamentalist than his father is. I'd be surprised, and disappointed, if Billy said anything like that.

[tpdncr4christ]

In order for your father to appreciate "the homosexual" culture and come to accept it, he must first learn about it. He has "seen" all that he cares to about the homosexuals and there agenda, and frankly he didn't like what he saw (I wouldn't either). It's not that we need to expose him to gay porn and force him to watch, more that we need to open his eyes to show him our culture. Show him that we are normal people too.

The problem is that every time he sees something that he doesn't like he turns away, and then when he is presented with an opportunity to change something, (like voting for a more inclusive marriage law) he isn't going to have enough experience about the matter because he keeps looking away. Sometimes we need to live out loud, sometimes we need to have our Pride Parades to get people to notice us, to get them to look at us, so that we can educate them on the fact that we are people too. As much as they are, we are people too.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by BlueGirl

I don't remember if I heard anyone say it was specifically because of gays or not but I did hear on the news that Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham, said it was a "wake up call". I would have thought better of him than to say something that ignorant. He seems to be more fundamentalist than his father is. I'd be surprised, and disappointed, if Billy said anything like that.

Franklin Graham is much more conservative than his father. Billy has been much more gracious to us.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

I think it is in March or April. That is how the girls get beads, they flash for em! I'll ask my co-worker, her brother lives in New Orleans.

Of course, you do know that the reason they got washed out with a huricane is because of all us immoral gay people down there. It does make one wonder that the gay portion on the state was not flooded and also Mardie Gras is considered is straight celebration. Hence, all the sraight people having sex on the street down there and getting naked. (I wish I could remember who made an ass out of themselves by saying that!)

Umm. Pretty sure it's, like, end of January. It's the celebration of the last day before Lent - and not being raised Christian, I don't know when Lent is or how long it lasts. Got the impression it begins late Jan/early Feb and lasts for about. . . 6 weeks? Anyway, everyone goes bonkers the last Tuesday before Lent. Presumably this means Lent always begins on a Weds.

RE: the original topic of discussion.

One point that has so far not been made which is rather critical to the ostensible reason for the objection to pride parades is this:

Pride parades are NOT lobbying attempts nor are they educational outreach to the straight mainstream. Pride is FOR the LGBT communities and our friends who love us and want to celebrate with us. It's an important distinction rather analogous to the difference between a casual party with 10-12 good friends in your home versus a $500 per plate gala function for a cause or a political candidate. Ie, they are completely different types of social events. Therefore, it is ridiculous to say that the way the LGBT community "asks for rights" is inappropriate based on the social activities (and usually, the most outrageous photo one can find) of a pride parade.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Umm. Pretty sure it's, like, end of January. It's the celebration of the last day before Lent - and not being raised Christian, I don't know when Lent is or how long it lasts. Got the impression it begins late Jan/early Feb and lasts for about. . . 6 weeks? Anyway, everyone goes bonkers the last Tuesday before Lent. Presumably this means Lent always begins on a Weds.

Mardi Gras begins with Epiphany on the Twelfth Day of Christmas, and celebrates the arrival of the kings who brought gifts to the Christ child, thus the colors of green, gold, and purple, royal colors, used to celebrate the season of Mardi Gras. Each week, the celebrations become more intense, culminating in the unbridled revelry we see on Fat Tuesday. the actual dates of course are determined by Easter, as Lent begins with Ash Wednesday six weeks before Easter. So, to figure out the length of the Mardi gras season, one has to determine when Easter falls, by using the following algorithm.....or just looking at a calendar.

"The actual conditions to determine the date for Easter are (1) Easter must be on a Sunday; (2) this Sunday must follow the 14th day of the paschal moon; (3) the paschal moon is that of which the 14th day (full moon) falls on or next follows the day of the vernal equinox; and (4) the equinox is fixed in the calendar as March 21. Easter can never occur before March 22 or later than April 25."

once you know when Easter Sunday is, you back it up 40 days (don't count sundays) and you land on Ash Wednesday. so the period of time beginning with the 12th day of Christmas (epiphany) through Fat Tuesday, or mardi gras, dictates that season, and of course, is of varying length.