My Conservative Father Made a Good Point

[glenze]

The last Gay Pride evening party I went was in thecentre of the city and a lot of straight people had turned up (obvious why - drinks, music and drag queens - who can't enjoy that) - when the speeches started the first speaker opened by saying "Welcome to Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender and Straight Pride" - a huge cheer went up and everybody had a great time!

[royalartisan]

Originally Posted by Tinkerbell047

My father (who is 72) is a conservative, Nondenominational, Republican ordained minister. I am his 18-year-old,"not straight," socially liberal daughter. We tend to butt heads quite frequently, especially on the issues regarding the GLBT community.

The other night, my father received an email from his sister about a Pride Parade in her home town, and how disgusted she was by it. My father made me read said email. I was disgusted by the hatred that she had put into the letter, and the obvious gay bashing that she was doing. I finished reading the email, and said nothing. My father sat down in his chair and asked me what I thought. I decided against responding. It was then that he said something profound, and something that made sense to me. He looked at me, and, though not in the kindest tone of voice, he said, "people don't want to be forced to see it. They don't want to know about another couples sex lives. We don't want someone else's intimate life forced upon us. If the gays would explain their points, make their arguments without the Pride Parades, and Pride Weekends, and rainbow days at ball parks, maybe people would be more willing to listen to them."

Maybe my father has a point in this. The GLBT community says that we don't want "special" treatment, but that we want "equal" treatment. But, maybe, just maybe, in some cases we try so hard to fine equality that we force closed the eyes of some people. Many of the men and women I know don't so much have a problem with the gay community, as the way the gay community goes about its business and are so turned off by the way we try to reach our issues that they don't want to stick around to hear the rest.

I'm only 18, and I'm still in high school. I will freely admit that I don't know much about the "real world," but, maybe my dad's point is a valid one. We all know that when the Right does and says things that are over the top we don't always stop to hear their points, maybe we should go about our demonstrations in a way that is more open and straight-friendly, maybe if we made our arguments in a more, for lack of a better term, conservative manner the Conservative people would be more willing to listen to us.

With love and blessings,
-Tink

Sound like my dad (except my dad is only 54 :P) and me.

And I agree with him. That's actually what I believe. If our communities would tone down all this "look at me, look at me" kind of stuff, I think people would be more open to hearing (and seeing) us out.

I understand the need to feel that we should be so visible now that more and more of us are coming out...and trying to be proud is a step toward higher self-esteem. But being proud is not a step toward equality.

We all know that pride is dangerous and many people see it as a sin.

It upsets me when you turn on the television and you see all this flagrantly obscene heterosexual crap there, but it has nothing to do with being hateful of heterosexuals because I'm a lesbian. When I see the exploitation of peoples' personal lives, no matter who they are or who they choose to sleep with, it angers me. Your private life should be your own. It bothers me just as much to see those ridiculous Girls Gone Wild adverts and even Tila Tequila. It's egotistical and just...disturbing to me.


I know how it feels to suffocate for fear that people will hate you for being gay...and to feel like we need to shout it from the rooftops..but we need to remember that, for the Baby Boomers and everyone who came before them, this "okay to be gay" movement is a new and shocking ordeal....

[pnggrad79]

Hey Tink,
I didn't know about Pride parades until about 3 years ago. I have been to 4 Pride parades and think that they don't necessarily promote an agenda. It is simply a time when the GLBT community gets together to show their unity and pride in who they are. Scott is right, it is only once a year and is a time we can be who we are and not face the discrimination we endure year round.
I love the bumper sticker that says, "I don't mind straight people, as long as they don't flaunt it" Sex is big business and it has become the norm for things so private to be out there sold and bought... Tell your dad there is such a thing as the off button or the remote control has a power button and all he has to do is shut it off if it bothers him. Tell him to read or go for a walk. He is not chained to the television.
I really have problems with people who are comfortable in their rights and freedoms when there are people in this country who don't have them, and those that do don't understand what the fuss is all about. Tell your dad to go live in the black community or be gay for a day, then he might have a different perspective.

[Rick336]

I've read the comments here. I'm just curious.

Suppose it was a Southern Pride celebration with a parade of floats and bands and hundreds of confederate flags celebrating Southern culture and heritage.

Rick

[Rick336]

Suppose it was a Southern Pride celebration with a parade of floats and bands and hundreds of Confederate flags celebrating Southern culture and heritage.

My point is this.

Even though there are a lot of Southerners who are proud of their culture and heritage, few would feel comfortable being associated with a event that widely displayed the Confederate flag. The reason is that even though the flag is a part of Southern heritage, it is very offensive to a lot people.

This is why I have a problem with gay pride parades. I don't have a problem with LGBT people being visible in the streets. I have been involved in dozens of protest demonstrations over the years. Even my signature on this forum is, "Out of the closets and into the streets!"

I also don't have a problem with tacky drag queens on festive floats and lots of people having a good time. That's what makes parades fun. A good example is New York City's St. Patrick's Day Parade.

What I have a problem with is open sexual expressions and sexual fetishes in the parade. One of the last gay pride parades I attended had a delegation from a local sexual fetish group that I found so offensive I don't feel comfortable describing it on this forum.

I haven't been to a gay pride parade in over a dozen years so maybe things have changed.

Rick

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Rick336

My point is this.

Even though there are a lot of Southerners who are proud of their culture and heritage, few would feel comfortable being associated with a event that widely displayed the Confederate flag. The reason is that even though the flag is a part of Southern heritage, it is very offensive to a lot people.

This is why I have a problem with gay pride parades. I don't have a problem with LGBT people being visible in the streets. I have been involved in dozens of protest demonstrations over the years. Even my signature on this forum is, "Out of the closets and into the streets!"

I also don't have a problem with tacky drag queens on festive floats and lots of people having a good time. That's what makes parades fun. A good example is New York City's St. Patrick's Day Parade.

What I have a problem with is open sexual expressions and sexual fetishes in the parade. One of the last gay pride parades I attended had a delegation from a local sexual fetish group that I found so offensive I don't feel comfortable describing it on this forum.

I haven't been to a gay pride parade in over a dozen years so maybe things have changed.

Rick

Eeeek!! I don't care for that, either. Flirty, even downright sexy fun is one thing, but overt behaviors from people I don't wish to see naked? Ohh, no way.

I've been to a handful of Prides, NYC, Houston, and caught distant glimpses of the Vienna parade. The last time I attended one, I got so many crude sexual come ons from drunk and high people it kinda put me off (and from guys who I'm sure weren't straight????? ).

I don't wish to see ugly displays of sexual behavior either. I would ADORE a gay pride parade with drag queens, dykes on bikes, all the usual stuff without people totally making-out in my face or worse, touching me uninvited. Just because it's Pride does not mean permission to touch strangers. One chick got offended when I told her, after she started trying to, that she may not touch my breasts or slap my buttocks. She thought *I* was rude!

But -- I see no analogy between being offended at a Confederate flag and being offended by the existence of gay pride parades, Rick. Sorry. I don't get it.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by zerbie

But -- I see no analogy between being offended at a Confederate flag and being offended by the existence of gay pride parades, Rick. Sorry. I don't get it.

The analogy is that a rebel flag is offensive to a lot of people. A banner for the "Fist ------- Association" is offensive to a lot of people. It's not about the existence of the parades themselves.

I think maybe it was on this forum a year or so ago that some gay pride parades now have strict rules against that kind of stuff.

Rick

[Zerbie]

Oh wow, I've seen some odd stuff at Prides, but never a flag like that!

Yeah. Crudeness like that absolutely turns me off. I would lose interest in going if it were always like that.

[Alecto]

I think I'm still really optimistic and positive about pride parades because:
A) I took the time to discovery the history behind them, and I think it's important to commemorate the Christopher street march
and
B) I'm in a relatively small city. Our parades just aren't all that offensive. There's always a few folks in the crowd who are a little more... "out there" than everyone else, but it's a large group of people and I almost expect it. I won't say there's no excess of skin, but there's no one full on naked, and (weird as it sounds) the skin that's there is usually "tasteful".

As for people treating you weird: OMG YES! I talked to my brother about that, and he blamed it on two factors:
1)The people who are used to being out around people have been drinking. All day. They get a little more obnoxious than usual.
2)There's a WHOLE bunch of people who don't usually come out to bars, or parades or parties or any other social events, especially those with a high ratio of queer people. They literally just do not know how to behave. I'm by no means saying they get a pass, but I try not to let it bother me either. I set my boundaries, and if they're violated I make sure the other person knows that said behavior is utterly inappropriate; they're not going to keep me from having fun though.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Alecto

2)There's a WHOLE bunch of people who don't usually come out to bars, or parades or parties or any other social events, especially those with a high ratio of queer people. They literally just do not know how to behave. I'm by no means saying they get a pass, but I try not to let it bother me either. I set my boundaries, and if they're violated I make sure the other person knows that said behavior is utterly inappropriate; they're not going to keep me from having fun though.

TOTALLY. Ditto on the drinking point, as well.
My theory behind the extreme behavior is that it may well be coming from people who are closeted most of the other 365 days, or newly out, factor in the drinking, and voilá, some odd behavior.

I just take exception when a guy I've never seen before grabs me, undoes his button fly, and while pulling me up against him murmers, "I'm a flaming f*gg*t." Yeah? And I'm Jake Gyllenhal. You can immediately see the resemblance.

What the--?

[matthewspeed]

Rick,

I share your sentiments! I, too, have no problem seeing my gay/lesbian brothers and sisters celebrating, marching in floats- drag queens,leather guys, costumes, etc... We are a diversified community. But the open glorification of sexuality is offensive to me. Our pride fest here in Cincinnati does not have that. It is very family friendly. Many straight and gay parents bring their children. A play area is set up for the kids. It is awsome. Yes, we have the usual drag and leather guys. The men in leather are just that, men in leather. There is no fetish activity going on. The only thing risque' (spelling?) I noticed last year, was a transexual who lifted her top, exposing her "new" breasts. Other than that, there were no overtly sexual explicit scenes through out the day.

We need to keep our sexual escapades in the bedroom. It is time for the gay community to think about our children. They are the next generation that will hopefully carry our banner. If ever I decide to adopt children with my future husband, I want to be able to feel comfortable in bringing my children to the Gay Pride events without having to cover their eyes!!

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Tinkerbell047

It was then that he said something profound, and something that made sense to me. He looked at me, and, though not in the kindest tone of voice, he said, "people don't want to be forced to see it. They don't want to know about another couples sex lives. We don't want someone else's intimate life forced upon us. If the gays would explain their points, make their arguments without the Pride Parades, and Pride Weekends, and rainbow days at ball parks, maybe people would be more willing to listen to them."

I think your father's statement is a little disingenuous because every time I see a wedding ring/straight couple holding hands, kissing, etc./ads for vacations/parents with children/straight couples dancing, having dinner together, etc... 90% of the time these things are indicators that, heaven forbid, these heterosexual people might be having sex. If normal displays of affection, family, romance, etc. are ok for heterosexual people, then they're ok for gay people. What's good for the straight goose is good for the gay gander.

However, as he and others in this thread have pointed out, the LGBT community could do a much better job communicating clearly about our lives, rights and needs.

I'm one of the chairs for Tulsa Pride... Here's the vision I've written for our events:

The Vision for Tulsa PRIDE 2008 is:
To unite the Tulsa-area Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender community, our allies, families and friends for the purpose of celebrating our lives and histories, strengthening our bonds to each other, and re-energizing our commitment to seek equality for all people.

The Theme for Tulsa PRIDE 2008 is:
equality
We seek the realization of the dream of Equality for all people, irrespective of sexual orientation, gender identity, ethnicity, color, age, abledness, faith or spirituality, citizenship status,wealth, education, etc.
love
We celebrate Love in all the many ways It expresses Itself in our lives. Love for our partners, families and friends. Love for our faith communities and organizations. Love for ourselves. Love even for those with whom we are not yet reconciled.
tulsa
We are proud of our beautiful city, our kind friends and neighbors, our incredible service organizations, our high quality corporations and businesses, and our world class arts and entertainment opportunities.

And here is the answer to a question I've been asked... "Why all the multiculturalism emphasis... is pride going to be gay enough?"

"In the last year, recent events have made our community very aware that hate is not only directed at those who are Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, but is often directed at people because of their faith, skin color, economic status, etc. When Oklahoma legislators passed HB 1804 with the intent of addressing undocumented workers, they unleashed a torrent of intolerance and hatred to those of Hispanic descent. Now, we have found new allies with this marginalized community. When Oklahoma legislators refused a copy of the Q’uran as a gift from a statewide interfaith alliance, our Muslim friends and neighbors suffered great heartache. As each of these things have happened, Oklahomans for Equality has been a vocal voice for justice for these communities. The fruit of this commitment to justice resulted in all of these communities coming to our defense when Rep. Sally Kern declared that LGBT people “were a bigger threat than terrorism.” Martin Luther King Jr. said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” As we stand up for our fellow minority citizens in Oklahoma, we have built great friendships and alliances with these communities. Finally, we should all remember that the LGBT community exists in every other community. Our people are Latino, African American, Asian, Jewish and Muslim. As we speak up for any oppressed group of people, we invariably are speaking up for ourselves. That being said, these are still very much gay pride events. The three cornerstone events are going to be an exciting celebration of our community and our lives. Plus, different facets of our community will be hosting events celebrating our diversity, including events for the Leather community, for the Transgender community, for LGBT families, for LGBT people of faith, for our queer youth, etc."

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

TOTALLY. Ditto on the drinking point, as well.
My theory behind the extreme behavior is that it may well be coming from people who are closeted most of the other 365 days, or newly out, factor in the drinking, and voilá, some odd behavior.

Yeah, Ellie and I saw some pretty tasteless behavior at Lansing Pride last year. They did bill it as 'bring your kids" there was an 'area for children' etc. Then, we were on the parade float and some young(20ish) thing pulls up her shirt and lets her breasts out, at the group of naysayers. I totally understand why she felt she had to do that, after all, people were telling her that we are going to hell, and siteing the Bibile. The really funny part was they were african-american and using the Bible the SAME exact way the KKK and bigots used it to make THEM seem less human! That aside, there were small children there with their gay parents in the crowd and it was pretty distastefull to us both.

Of course, at Marty Gras, people, (straight people), are having sex in the street, and flashing breasts all over, dressing in drag and all types of fetishes. So I fail to see how we are any different than they are! They are just accepted as the 'thing to do'. Should we have to put up with that?

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

I think your father's statement is a little disingenuous because every time I see a wedding ring/straight couple holding hands, kissing, etc./ads for vacations/parents with children/straight couples dancing, having dinner together, etc... 90% of the time these things are indicators that, heaven forbid, these heterosexual people might be having sex.

You forgot the Viagra and Cialis comercials!!!!!

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

Y Then, we were on the parade float and some young(20ish) thing pulls up her shirt and lets her breasts out, at the group of naysayers. I totally understand why she felt she had to do that, after all, people were telling her that we are going to hell, and siteing the Bibile. The really funny part was they were african-american and using the Bible the SAME exact way the KKK and bigots used it to make THEM seem less human! That aside, there were small children there with their gay parents in the crowd and it was pretty distastefull to us both.

Sounds like it was done out of defiant anger, which makes the solution to things like that the removal of provocation.

Although, honestly, and this is a tangent big enough to warrant its own thread, I do NOT understand why we Americans hyper-sexualize breasts. Other cultures do not have this taboo about the female breast that we have. Imo, it's something that we ought to accept as a normal, and also functional, part of the body, and just get over our inhibitions about it.

[pnggrad79]

I agree Zerb about desexualizing breasts. I mean half the population has them and they are quite functional(in more than one way). As a lesbian, I admit I notice them and try to be quite objective about how they enhance a woman's body and sometimes how they distract or detract from their appearance, but I do not think a woman's personality is defined by them and ultimately the personality will make or break it for me. I think they are beautiful and should be examined monthly and x-rayed yearly. I think they need to loved and supported well and taken care of. Women are beautiful, softer, lovelier and wonderful. What can I say?

[RedneckDyke]

I see Rick's point about the Confederate flag. Some people hate the flag and think it is for hate or racism. The Southern Cross (Confederate battle flag) was appropriated by hate groups and perverted to push their racist antisemite agenda. Racist and antisemite groups are desecrating that flag. I have a Confederate ancestor that fought bravely in the Western theater under Johnston and Hood. I fly a Southern Cross that has the words "Heritage Not Hate" printed on it. That message is directed to hate groups to tell them that the Confederate flag is not for use by hate groups. It is for decorating cemetaries and for display in museums and by people who want to honor their ancestors. There is a good video on YouTube of a guy singing a blugrass song that goes
"The Southern Cross never hid behind a hooded mask
And neither did Robert E. Lee.
The brave Confederate soldiers didn't die for the Nazi party.
That flag ain't yours to desecrate so leave our colors be"

I know I've gone off on a tangent.

That said, my response to someone who was offended by a Southern Pride festival would be the same to some offended by a Gay Pride festival. If you don't like it, DON'T GO. I hate rap music, but I don't go around saying people shouldn't have MTV raps concerts. I just change the channel. Or I don't go.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

I agree Zerb about desexualizing breasts. I mean half the population has them and they are quite functional(in more than one way). As a lesbian, I admit I notice them and try to be quite objective about how they enhance a woman's body and sometimes how they distract or detract from their appearance, but I do not think a woman's personality is defined by them and ultimately the personality will make or break it for me. I think they are beautiful and should be examined monthly and x-rayed yearly. I think they need to loved and supported well and taken care of. Women are beautiful, softer, lovelier and wonderful. What can I say?

I agree. I nursed all my children and in public, but discreetly of course. Breasts are way over rated. They are for feeding children and are more than sex objects. Although I do have to agree they are nice to look at. Men are so visual, they have a hard time talking to a woman and not her breasts. As a lesbian, I do also notice them but I have not the same problem talking to a woman instead of her breasts.

I think that they are the seat of power to some and flashing breasts are the same for women as a man grabbing his crotch in defiance.

[Alecto]

I'm not going to say that nipples are entirely non-sexual, cause...who are we kidding? But I will say that I don't think they're any MORE sexual for women, and it would make sense to have one standard of "decency" for everyone. I tend to be surprised when women are flashing (cause ya don't see that every day) but I don't think I've ever been scandalized.

[scott snedeker]

Chacote for me!