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#1
04-29-2008, 11:19 AM
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reinterpreting Paul's words in Romans
Alot of people use a few biblical passages to condemn homosexuality, And Paul's words were also scathing. But from what I learned from the course in Miracles, is that people who tend to hold on to grievances or condemn others will redefine God into their own image. God cannot be a body and the attributes often assigned to him are often seen as punitive judgmental, and ready to strike dead anyone who gets out of line or makes a mistake or goes off course. Apparently Paul thought adulterers, people who drank too much and homosexuals were worthy of death, which to me reflects exactly what the course says, Paul was not always consistent, in one breath he says not to condemn others and in the next he says give vengence to the Lord and he will repay. (How can you forgive and hold onto vengeful thoughts?)Jesus did not typify this in his attitude, again when a woman was about to be stoned for adultery he did not cast a stone.
What if Paul were in the place of Jesus, would he have cast the stone? You can see the contrast between the attitude Christ had and Paul's which should lead us to question Paul's attitudes toward certain people. Did they reflect Christ's or were they his own opinions, based on his own prejudices and misgivings, or perhaps homophobia.Most of the new testament does teach forgiveness, it is in many scriptures, but because we are dealing with imperfect people can we always trust what the written words say? Revelation also predicts the destruction of mankind where only a few are saved and the rest perish, it is pretty bleak if that is how God's plan for salvation works, most people then don't have any chance to be redeemed. Doomsday and apocalyptic prophecies have been a round for some time, I guess it is a matter of what one chooses to believe. That means that most people are predestined to perish.... then again where is choice, and the possibility that things could turn out differently. I often wondered why the bible could be so confusing but when you deal with the frame of reference of a writer , you are dealing with his own conclusions and belief systems. Do we really believe honestly that Eve and an apple caused the fall of mankind? Or is this more of an allegory describing something else. If the bible were unambigious it would be different. I was also watching on the history channel about attitudes about sexuality in the ancient world, they were pretty stringent, but there was nothing consistent about them... perhaps sexuality is something to be explored more and looked at in another light. Even in the earlier catholic church there were those who did not live up to their commitment of life long celibacy..they strayed.Why so many scandals in the church when it comes to human sexuality... Questions that need to be explored. Perhaps subconsciously there has been a lot of stigma about sexuality and spirituality, whether they actually can be integrated. Last edited by ladyinred; 04-30-2008 at 08:31 PM. 
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#2
04-30-2008, 08:43 PM
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Redefining truth and spirituality
I had written more on my post above but it got lost , so I'm just going to post a few websites with articles that you might find interesting: I think instead of seeing the bible as the infallible word of God we need to perhaps challenge age-old beliefs and interpretations of God as Jesus many times did, by breaking the sabbath ;old testament ,breaking the sabbath meant death, said to be ordained by God, Stoning for adultery, also a mandate said to come from God ,overlooked by Jesus when he forgave a woman accused of committing adultery who was about to be stoned to death, communion with "diseased people" in the old testament , it was mandated that you were to not be near or touch an" unclean person", Jesus touched lepers, dead people,those who had other diseases. Said ,"You had heard in the days of old , an eye for an eye ,a tooth for a tooth (Old testament) But I say unto you love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you...." Ok enough about the bible, but I think it is safe to say perhaps we need new revelations and shouldn't depend so much on "the written word for our answers, not saying not to read the bible, but I tend to avoid scripture I find disheartening.
Articles you might find interesting:http://www.godvsthebible.com/chapter01, http://www.eoni.com/~visionquest/library/biblesnot.html Quote : T .Jefferson:"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.”
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#3
04-30-2008, 08:59 PM
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Taken from the God vs the bible website:
Third Edition Summary: The Bible has many harsh critics. The most notable among them is God. The natural universe, God's Creation, speaks out loudly and clearly against the Bible and other vaunted books of so-called revelation. This book documents how. In it, the reader will learn: How even the most remedial knowledge of science that every child should know is enough to completely discredit the Bible. Evolution is the least of the Bible's problems. How the Bible contradicts itself on even the most fundamental of theological issues, from the divinity of Christ to the proper path of salvation. How the Bible glorifies certain acts of rape, genocide, slavery, bigotry and other cruelties. The true history of "Hell" and what your church doesn't want you to know. How the power of reason, God's greatest gift to us, fosters a deeper and healthier spirituality than could ever be possible through faith. By the end of this book, the reader will have an undeniable case that humans, not God, wrote the Bible and the only Word of God is the Creation itself. Chapters Other Features Support this Site Table of Contents Below is a brief description of each chapter with linked text and images that will open it. Alternatively, you may use the navigation bar to the right to go directly to any chapter or site feature. Preface: Author's Notes for the Reader This preface offers the reader some understanding of the decisions that went into the making of "God vs. the Bible". To be thorough, there were two different translations used in the research of scripture: the classic King James Version (KJV) and the most modern New Revised Standard Version (NRSV). Any morally or logically flawed verses in the KJV that were fixed in the NRSV were omitted from this book. The Christian will not have the comfort of claiming that the biblical passages cited in this book are translation errors unique to the KJV. This preface also explains my motivations in writing this book. This part of the preface offers a quick overview of the terrible cost of the Christian and Islamic faiths and how they stifle the human mind and spirit. Finally, the preface includes a list of acknowledgements. This book would not be possible without the people who have shaped my life and other freethinking authors who have blazed the trail before me. I would like to humbly thank all those who have contributed their insight and/or assisted me in my own ongoing search for the truth. Part I: The Seven Fatal Flaws of the Bible Chapter 1: A Self-Evident Truth Whoever Wrote the Bible, It Wasn't God. If there is a uniform definition of God, it is the Creator. Different religions have their own ideas about what else they attribute to this being but its fair to say that this basic definition, First Cause of the universe, would be one point of agreement. If we are to believe that the Creator also wrote a book (such as the Bible) shouldn't we expect this book to contain an accurate understanding of how Creation operates? This chapter introduces the seven fatal flaws of the Bible and debunks some of the common Christian excuses for biblical errors. It also argues for the standard of "zero defects" with regard to any book said to be the Word of our Creator. The proper respect for God demands nothing less. Chapter 1 Sections: Introduction / The Zero Defects Standard / The Seven Fatal Flaws of the Bible / Addressing Defenders of the Faith / Conclusion Chapter 2: Inherent Problems Fatal Flaw #1: By Definition, the Bible Can't Be "Revelation" Before we even read the first word of the Bible, there are already serious problems that call into question just how reliable it is as a source of divine revelation. This chapter explores the definition of revelation and how it can only be a first-hand experience (the matchless honor of speaking to God directly). It's not something that can be packaged or reliably related through hearsay testimony. Additionally, why does God need prophets? Wouldn't speaking to the entire planet at once be a better plan? Why does God need missionaries? If identical copies of this book had appeared in many different cultures across the world long before they had any contact with each other, it would lend credibility to the idea that the tome is indeed from God. Instead, it was written by the people of one culture and only spread to the rest of the world through human hands. Chapter 2 Sections: Introduction / How can the Bible claim to be "revelation"? / Why does God need prophets? / Why does God need missionaries? / The Source of Revelation for Nature's God Chapter 3: The "Heavens" vs. the Bible Fatal Flaw #2: How Can the Bible Be the Word of Our Creator When It Has Such a Poor Understanding of the Cosmos? Forget about evolution. The Bible makes many ridiculous assertions about the nature of the cosmos that can be debunked by the most remedial of scientific knowledge. You don't need a doctorate in astronomy to understand how scripture is wrong about the universe. This chapter lists the seven ways that the Bible is wrong about Creation, from its assertion that the sun revolves around the earth to its idea that you can get to heaven by building a really tall tower. Chapter 3 Sections: Introduction / The Bible Says the Sun Revolves Around the Earth / The Bible Says the Moon is a Source of Light / The Bible Says the Sky is a Dome / The Bible Says the Stars are Little Lights Fixed in the Sky-Dome / The Bible Says the Earth is Small, Flat and Supported by Pillars / The Bible Says the Universe was Created in Six Days / The Bible Says You Can Get to Heaven by Building a Really Tall Tower / Conclusion Chapter 4: Nature vs. the Bible Fatal Flaw #3: How Can the Bible Be the Word of Our Creator When It Has Such a Poor Understanding of Life? The Bible was obviously written by primitive humans who had little understanding of the nature of the world they lived in. This chapter catalogs seven of their most serious errors, from their belief that illness is caused by demonic possession to their accounts of the nearly thousand-year life spans of some of the early biblical characters. Chapter 4 Sections: Introduction / The Bible Doesn't Understand Medicine / The Bible Doesn't Understand Animals / The Bible Doesn't Understand Plants / The Bible Doesn't Understand Weather / The Bible Doesn't Understand Gender / The Adam and Even Fallacy / The Ridiculously Long Lives of the Old Testament / Conclusion Chapter 5: Reality vs. the Bible Fatal Flaw #4: The Bible is Filled With Magic, Mythical Creatures, and Other Elements of Fantasy Do you believe dragons are real? Do you believe that mortal humans can cast magical spells? Would you believe that God once made a public speech to the entire nation of Judea? The people who wrote the Bible did. The Bible is filled with examples of fantastic creatures, sorcery and mysticism. Yet, when we survey God's Creation, we see a predictable universe, devoid of supernatural upheaval. Even the things that remain a mystery to modern science carry the promise to one day be discovered. So how could the author of the Bible be our Creator when the book has such an outdated, superstitious view? Chapter 5 Sections: Introduction / Mythological Beings / Magic in the Bible / Yahweh Talks to People? / Nature's God and Divine Intervention / Conclusion Chapter 6: The Flip-Flopping Bible Fatal Flaw #5: If the Bible Has One Author, Allegedly God, Then Why Can't It Keep Its Own Story Straight? A joke commonly told about the Bible is that you can use it to justify any opinion as long as you know which verse to cite and how to interpret it. This cynical observation is all too reflective of this muddled, contrary tome. For the sake of brevity, we will focus on the seven most divisive or glaring self-contradictions of the Bible and how they have led to so many different factions of Christianity. After finishing this chapter, the reader may come to understand how all of these denominations manage to consider themselves the true version of Christianity. It's all a matter of which passages of the Bible people care to read. Chapter 6 Sections: Introduction / The Two Contradictory Creation Stories in Genesis / The Mixed Messages Regarding the Proper Path to Salvation / No One is Righteous, No Not One... Except for All the Ones Who Are / Does Yahweh Want to Save Everyone? / The Flip-Flopping Jesus / Was Jesus God or a Separate Being from God? / The Evolving Biblical God / Conclusion Chapter 7: The Not-So-Good Book Fatal Flaw #6: Seven Ways the Bible is Morally Bankrupt by Modern Standards Be careful what you call, "The Word of God". People might believe it. This chapter is not for the faint of heart. It catalogs the seven greatest horrors and injustices of the Bible, from rape and genocide by the Biblegod's orders to bigotry in many forms. Christians are asked to reflect on each carefully before investing any credibility in this book as the ultimate moral authority in life. To moderate Christians: can you read this chapter and still claim the Bible is "God's Word"? If you call for religious tolerance and non-violence but still say the Bible has divine authority, you are sending out a confusing mixed message. You say this is the Word of God but you don't always agree with it? Chapter 7 Sections: Introduction / The Evil Acts of Yahweh / Rape and Genocide by Yahweh's Orders / The Biblical Endorsement of Slavery / Hell for All Those Who Doubt Yahweh's Love / Cruel and Unusual Laws / Punishing One Person for the Sins of Another / Bigotry in the Bible (Sexism / Gay-Bashing / Anti-Semitism / Racism) / Atrocities Waiting to Happen? / Conclusion Chapter 8: He Had to Sacrifice Himself to Himself? Fatal Flaw #7: The Jesus Story Makes No Sense This chapter thoroughly analyzes the claims about Jesus and his alleged life. It asks a number of common sense questions (such as "Why does human sacrifice make everything better?" and "What force could compel God to require such a bloody ritual just to be persuaded to forgive us?"). It also delves into Old Testament writings to show that the Jesus sacrifice is completely inconsistent with Jewish teachings. In the section, "Jesus-Come-Lately", the reader will learn about many similar myths that predated the alleged life of Jesus. Christianity didn't offer much that was new. This chapter analyzes the four canonical Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) to show how they can't possibly be reliable accounts of history. Finally, it reviews the many versions of Christianity that existed in the first few centuries. The wild variety of early "Christian" beliefs fly in the face of the myth that a uniform belief based on Jesus' teachings "got off the ground quickly and spread rapidly despite persecution". It seems reasonable to ask, "Did Jesus even exist at all?" The honest answer is "God only knows." Chapter 8 Sections: Introduction / Why Does Human Sacrifice Make Everything Better? / Jesus vs. the Old Testament / Jesus-Come-Lately / Was There a First Coming of Christ? / The Plausibility of the Gospels / Many Other Gospels - Many Other Christianities / Jesus: Man of History or Mything In Action? / Conclusion Chapter 9: False Prophecies About Jesus How "Biblical Prophecy" Fails to Support the Jesus Story Many Christian apologists will point to the Old Testament prophecies that Jesus allegedly fulfilled and the prophecies that Jesus made as proof that Christianity holds the true understanding of God. This is classic circular reasoning, using the Bible to prove the Bible. Essentially, these defenders of the faith are saying, "The Bible says that Jesus is the Son of God. We know that this claim is true because Jesus fulfilled many of the Bibles prophecies. We know he fulfilled these prophecies because the Bible tells us he did." The circular nature of this reasoning is obvious but let that go. This chapter plays in the court of the Christian apologist to show that seven of the claimed "fulfillments of prophecy" are either false prophecies or misquotes of Old Testament scripture. In particular, Matthew (or whoever wrote the Book of Matthew) is proven to be a liar by his own words. This chapter also details the greatest false prophecy made about Jesus: that he would return "soon", within the lifetimes of the disciples. 2,000 years later, we're still waiting. Chapter 9 Sections: Introduction / Behold a Virgin Shall Conceive / The David-to-Jesus Bloodline / The Slaughter of the Innocents / Out of Egypt / He Shall Be Called a "Nazarene" / One Flock - One Shepherd / Jesus is Coming Soon / Other Arguments for Christianity / Conclusion Part II: The Culture War Chapter 10: What's NOT in the Bible? Conservative Christian Beliefs in Conflict with Biblical Teachings Conservative Christians often like to speak of creating a society more in line with the values that are found in the Bible. Yet, when we examine where they stand on social issues, we find that they aren't even supported by their vaunted scriptures. They want to steer America closer to a theocracy but feel free to violate their own sacred text as it pleases them to do so. This is not to say that adhering to a Bronze-Age tome and its backward laws is a good idea for a modern society but if Americans are to trade in our secular republic for a theocracy, it would be nice for us to know that we can at least expect our new masters to play by their own rulebook. Chapter 10 Sections: Introduction / "Life Begins at Conception" / "Marriage = One Man and One Woman" / "We Need Prayer in Schools" / "Remember the Reason for the Season" / Conclusion Chapter 11: Founding Fathers America's Most Famous Deists America was founded as a Christian nation? Don't believe a word of it! In this chapter, the reader will learn about America's most famous deists, her founding fathers, and some of their anti-Christian sentiments. It's no accident that the Constitution is godless or that the Declaration of Independence invokes Nature's God instead of Jesus. Their letters to one another and the records of their discussions prove that their intention was to establish a secular republic and build a wall that separates government from religion. Radical right wing Christians are working hard to suppress this knowledge and rewrite America's history so that they may reinvent this nation as a theocracy. As this chapter will show, the concept of God as a being that created all of humanity free and with "unalienable rights" is one consistent with deism, not Christianity. The Bible claims that kings rule by divine right and slaves should obey their masters. For America, either the Bible or the Constitution must be the master. A nation can't serve two. As we come to love one, we must hate the other. Chapter 11 Sections: Introduction / Was America Founded as a Christian Nation? / Will America Remain a Free Secular Nation? / The American Revolution Continues / We Should Respect People, Not Ideologies / Conclusion Chapter 12: The Demonization of Sex How Scripture Vilifies Both Straight and Gay Sex While Sanctifying Celibacy, A Paradigm that Works Against Nature and Nature's God. Humans are sexual beings. This is a simple fact not to be disputed. Sex is not simply essential for procreation; our desire for sexual gratification is hardwired into our being and is quite easily one of the most powerful motives of human nature. Coming to terms with our sexuality in a healthy way is arguably an essential component to our spiritual wellbeing. Unfortunately, the New Testament fails to deal with the topic of human sexuality in a positive way. This Word of God, which ought to be expected to provide guidance in all aspects of our lives, is handicapped in this critical field. This chapter is divided into two parts. The first discusses how Christianity vilifies heterosexual sex, focusing on the irresponsibility and poor ethics behind "abstinence-only sex education" (a certain way to increase teen pregnancy). The second analyzes Christianity's perplexing taboo against love between people with similar body parts. Chapter 12 Sections: Introduction / The Sanctification of Celibacy / Abstinence-Only Sex Education / Nature's God and Sexual Morality / Why Does Love Become "Evil" When the Body Parts Are Similar? / Nature's God and Homosexuality Chapter 13: Hell Who Knew a Garbage Dump Outside Jerusalem Could Be Made into Such a Useful Device With Which to Control People? The fear of Hell has been a powerful tool used by Christian leaders over the years both to gain converts among unbelievers and as a method to control those who had already converted. Even the most liberal denominations support the idea that such a place exists and thereby carry the implicit threat. More conservative denominations make Hell a central theme to many of their sermons. Is Hell real as they claim? Not only is there no evidence for the existence of such a place, there's plenty to the contrary. The ancient Jews, who wrote the Old Testament, didn't believe in Hell. The Christian concept of this infernal region got started with a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. This chapter explores the history of Hell, tears apart Pascal's Wager and provides proof that this place of eternal torment couldn't possibly exist. Chapter 13 Sections: Introduction / The History of Gehenna (Hell) / Pascal's Wager / The Parable of the "War of the Worlds" / It's Not Real / Conclusion Part III: God's Gift of Reason Chapter 14: Deism Reason-Based Spirituality It's been said that you shouldn't criticize without presenting a better idea. This chapter offers to the reader a healthier spiritual alternative to Christianity called, "deism". This philosophy is more compatible with modernity and celebrates (rather than stifles) our natural gift of reason. Reason and spirituality are not opposites. Quite to the contrary, there is great spiritual depth in being a freethinker. Our minds are unfettered by the shackles of religious faith, at liberty to explore the wonder of human consciousness and the majesty of God's Creation. Chapter 14 Sections: Introduction / Deism Defined / How Should We Serve God? / Reason-Based Spirituality / What of Comfort in Times of Need? / Deism and Morality / How is Deism Different From... / Conclusion Chapter 15: As the Dust Settles... The Battle Between God and the Bible is Over but the War Rages On At the end of this book, the sacred tome of Christianity stands in ruins, having been cut to shreds by the twin blades of observation and reason. It would be of great benefit if this victory were sufficient to open minds and close churches. Unfortunately, there are many emotional roadblocks which hinder the Christian's journey to freedom. The reality is that the struggle between God and the Bible is not one that can be completely documented in any book. It is fought in the mind of every Christian. In each one, buried beneath fear, denial and social programming is God's Gift of Reason, struggling to break free. This chapter touches on some of the emotional chains which keep the faithful tied down. Deconversion is often a difficult and painful transition but the wavering Christians should know that they aren't alone. The best thing for them to do is seek out a supportive community of those who've been through it. Chapter 15 isn't divided into sections. It's fairly short, designed to be the conclusion to the whole book.
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#4
05-01-2008, 12:43 PM
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Salvation
[QUOTE=ladyinred;55229]
Revelation also predicts the destruction of mankind where only a few are saved and the rest perish, it is pretty bleak if that is how God's plan for salvation works, most people then don't have any chance to be redeemed. QUOTE] Why do you say that, ladyinred?  Jesus is God's plan for salvation. Anyone who's heard of Jesus as the Son of God and the Gospel (Good News) story will be redeemed if they believe and accept Jesus as their Savior. IF they don't, then they won't be. The choice is theirs. As a Christian, I've been taught and believe that salvation is obtained only through faith in Jesus, beliveing that He's who He said He is and that He is the only Way to be saved from eternal damnation. Believing and accepting that is what makes one a Christian, not whether they do or don't commit certain sins. No one can be saved by being "good". The reason for that belief is found in the words of Jesus Himself in the following Gospels: Mark 16:16, John 3:16,17,18, John 3: 35 & 36, John 5:24, John 6:35-40, John 11: 25 & 26. I'm sure there are some who disagree with that but that's my belief according to my understanding of the Scriptures. Everyone who is capable of understanding and deciding things for themselves has free will to either accept Jesus or reject Him. The people who perish will have done so of their own free will and choice, just like people who choose to break our civil laws and end up in jail because of it. As Walker (Texas Ranger) says, "Choices and consequences". BlueGirl
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#5
05-02-2008, 08:19 AM
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I have no qualms with Jesus, but the bible is inconsistent about alot of things, in one breath it talks about the works of the flesh being wrath among other things and in another passage it says that people will be lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God ..... unloving, unforgiving and unmerciful, haters of God ,violent and proud....etc. How can the bible then depict a God like that found in revelation consumed with rage and ready to take revenge and cause unending suffering and torment to those who haven't worshipped him? Sounds like God has a huge ego then. many ancient religions including the Mayans believed they had to appease angry gods by blood sacrifices, the ancient Hebrews had this belief about the old testament god , he had to be appeased by the blood sacrifices of animals if you were to be so-called forgiven for your "Sins", it's like you have to earn his favor, and if you don't you might get whacked with plagues or disease, or famines, or have someone kill you, this sounds more like a vengeful, God demanding retribution if you don't do things his way." Watch out!!!! One mistake and you'll get it."
These beliefs about God have carried over into modern history because of the bible and other written documents claiming that they are the word of God, Think on this ,when 9/11 happened the Islamic fanatics believed in such a God ,ready to exact vengence on the infidels, they had no problem with killing innocent people. Then because of such a belief in such a God we can attribute every misfortune that happens to a vengeful God who punnishes. Suppose your loved one was in a car wreck, God must have been angry with him for something he did so that is why he "got it". Suppose your loved one dies and has not been saved according to the bible, you can now worry about his soul rotting in hell and anguish over it, This does not bring much comfort or peace of mind does it? Who on earth would want to even think that their loved one would perish like that , perhaps a young child who had not grown up in the church and hadn't been saved who dies of some disease? What a about a moslem child who had been raised Moslem or a buddhist or some other person who was taught to believe in something else? Dooms-day prophecy again , is not unusual ,many ancient religions had them. The Mayans , the Indians also had them about the end of the world , that mankind would suffer from plagues, floods, famine and all sorts of awful things would befall them. How can we attribute such things to a loving God? He sounds more like a sadist who enjoys tormenting and causing his children to suffer, you won't have to wait for hell then, it will be right here on earth. God will make sure you suffer. God as the course defines him is not seen as cruel or vindictive, yes we have free will and God does will we not perish, but he's not going to beat us over the head or force us into salvation, he cannot be both dark and light but only light, he cannot be both benevolent and malevolent he cannot be both forgiving and vindictive . God cannot be in a war with himself and you cannot attribute evil to him because it is simply blasphemous, and would make him and evil God (Who sounds more like" Satan" , who of course want us to suffer and be tormented in the everlasting lake of fire and who is out to claim his victims. who is our worst enemy then God or "Satan" who both want us to be tormented and suffer?) For him to will evil for his children would make him a cruel God. I think it was Thomas Paine who said a belief in a cruel God makes for a cruel man. We take the teachings of an ancient hebrew tribe in the bible and believe in their god. Are we then suppose to cower in fear and walk on eggshells thinking well oops if I screw this one up or make a mistake my salvation may be revoked. Many people may feel it is impossible to please God and feel they fall short of the mark....... after all you have to earn his approval and love. He doesn't just give it uncondtionally.. As far as hell ,all you need to do is look at the world about you and see the pain and suffering and host of other problems to know people don't need to wait for the after-life to be tormented or suffer, they are right now. Look at the events like that in Africa, Iraq, look at poverty,look at those who suffer from cancer and other disease... It is dangerous to define God by the written words of men, do we actually know they had the true revelation or accurate knowledge of God (Perhaps trying to scare and intimidate people to bring them into line???)or were they as the course said , defining God in their own image? Sounds like an" iffy" God to me, as in maybe I will forgive you and maybe I won't, but according to the bible you don't have a choice , there are those who are predestined to be saved and there are those who aren't. Sounds like a pretty scary frightening God. one I wouldn't want to believe in. I can understand why many turn to atheism and become agnostic after reading the bible. if that's the only concept of God we have, then it isn't much of a choice to believe in him he is way too scary and frightening. I'm not saying there isn't beauty or wisdom in the words of the bible, I read those passages myself. But revelation sounded like some psychotic dream to me , a nightmare of epic proportions. It also depicts Jesus as coming back with sword in hand ready to deal with unfinnished business , this hardly depicts the Jesus who died on the cross and forgave those who crucified him. Do we really need to be scared witless to come to God? Do we really need to be told that if we don't accept Jesus we are going to hell, sounds like salvation through coercion and intimidation and fear,I'm sure Jesus Christ would want things that way. Do we really want to attribute all the misfortune in the world to God, wouldn't that make him responsible for them then? Wouldn't he then be responsible for all the misery and evil in the world, does that make any sense?????????????????????????? Don't count Christ out . I'm not saying to do that but understand that the bible isn't always a reliable source in the way he is depicted, I like to think of the verse in the bible where it says" come unto me all ye who are burdened ......... my yoke is light and my burden is easy." (Not the exact words but what I remember of that verse. He also said religious leaders in his time put loads on peoples backs that were grievous to bear and did not lift a finger to help ease that burden, and also stated that they made impossible religious demands on the people,I would say that can be attributed to the truth about Jesus because he cared about people he did not want them to carry heavy burdens he wanted them to lighten their loads and trust in him , the Prince of Peace . Does that sound like Christ wanted destruction for people or was he concerned with their welfare and theri problems? Another website I would recommend is www.Godwithoutreligion.com You might want to check it out, it talks alot about belief systems. Another thing consider yourself as a parent to a child ( you may not be, but I'm just using this as an example : What would you want more than anything for that child would you want him to be destroyed and ruined or wish ill for him or would you want him to be happy and be concerned with his wellbeing. What would a loving parent want for their child? What makes sense then? Why then is God depicted as a cruel tyrant who seems only interested in himself? He can force people into exalting and praising him by sending floods ,plagues , disaster then? Doesn't sound like that god has much concern for the wellbeing of his children but wants to be built up and praised and if you don't , all of the above will happen(revelation)Sounds like God is desperate for man's approval then, he demands praise through coercion. Think about tyrants like Saddam Hussein, a dictator who had no qualms with torturing or killing his own people, all over Iraq Pictures of him are plastered every where hailing him as the "great leader, even statutes are constructed in his honor The same with the North Korean leader who doesn't even care about his people starving or suffering, they are to address him as dear leader and all sorts tributes are paid to him to praise him and honor him, even plays and songs are sung as a tribute to his greatness to build him up as the great leader of his people, those who would dare to speak an ill word about him would put to death.. Statues are also constructed in his honor and pictures are plastered everywhere of him announcing him as the dear leader. What would you call these people who had a need to build themselves up at the expense of other people. Egomaniacs? Narcissistic? Why on earth would God be depicted in such a horrible way when he is not even a human being? And can we ascribe such petty, hateful human attributes to God? The god of Revelations has really ugly nasty temper when things don't go just his way. (Notice I don't capitalize god when God is seen in a negative light or seen as cruel, barbaric,bloodthirsty , violent,hateful ,hurtful, meanspirited, vindictive, and unjust) .When we are dealing with many of the written words of the bible....(especially in the old tesatment) WE are dealing with primitive people in primitive cultures who were often barbaric, ill educated, uninformed, and warlike in the bible (especially the old testament) who had primitive concepts about God, he was the big bogey man , to be feared and had to be appeased with blood sacrifices when angry. How many other primitive and ancient cultures had similar concepts, many. Blood sacrifices were common to their belief systems about an angry war-like god.. who constantly had to be appeased by the blood sacrifices of animals or humans, or loaves of bread or herds or whatever. Doesn't seem like his anger was ever quelled does it..? If they thought at one time the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth, why would you expect them to be very advanced or enlightened in any thing else.Their knowledge and understanding were primitive after all . Last edited by ladyinred; 05-02-2008 at 10:25 AM.
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#7
05-02-2008, 04:05 PM
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The fundies will definitely getcha on that one, they are good at using the bible to beat people over the head with damnation and hellfire for their sexual orientation. Gay bashing is nothing to them, it's normal to them. But it does say how their world view and beliefs are fixated. Well the bible say it so it MUST Be true. I guess we can start again with stoning people again for not observing the sabbath, and if you eat shellfish or pork you are in deep doo-doo. Everything outside their interpretation of the bible is demonic influenced, if you are a liberal, evil, if you are a moderate Christian ,evil, buddhist, Hindu, Moslem evil influnced by the devil.And oh yeah there are those who believe that the anti-Christ will be homsexual... Everyone cherry-picks biblical passages , the ones that most suit them, that is, But they also overlook those they don't agree with like warnings about adultery or divorce. Better to demonize someone else..
So you find a biblical passage that says Yaweh hates fags, well of course that justifies hating gays , after all it came out of God's mouth,(Questionably) I think perhaps those who used god in the old testament perhaps used him to justify their actions, it made it more acceptable then to murder to pillage , to hate those who were different from them, , after all put the words in God's mouth saying he commanded such and such and it gives it the aura of credibility, how can you argue with god saying it then? How can it not be then acceptable to act out on the commndment of god? And if you accept this line of reasoning, you have god's blessing to kill unbelievers, homosexuals, people who don't observe the sabbath , people who commit adultery, have gods approval to have slaves ,invade another country ,kill all the people except virgin girls who have never "known" a man or slept with one, even the married women get killed too. Well Hallelujuah!!!! God get's all the credit for commanding these things in his name. Some historical background on ancient Hebrew culture:http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch04.htm I'm not to insult anyone here who is a Christian that is not my goal. But how people view Christianity may be at the root of the problem, .For example ,Jerry Falwell said Jesus was very masculine and had thick muscles and was not a willowly , gentle type. The Christian right have depicted Jesus with thick muscles with a sword in hand, a Charles Atlas type. Like Christ went to the gym and pumped iron I'm sure... They try to portray him as something he is not. Personally as far as I remember in the bible there is not alot mentioned about Christ's appearnce other than he was just average. Try imagine Christ on the cover of some magazine "flexing his muscles." I also noticed that those who are Christian who are dedicated to social justice, equality and acceptance of others are usually gentler types rather than hostile or aggressive and concerned with helping and serving others. See how the individual view is selective. I personally think that Christianity is not the problem ,I do think that Christ's message has too often been distorted. After reading from Robert Burney's website he tends to share this view, it's not Christ or Christianity but how people interpret Christ and Christianity. Below is a posting was to show why people become disillusioned many times with churches and their teachings, primarily with fundamentalism. And how those who believe like the fundamentalist can drive people away from the church. Last edited by ladyinred; 05-03-2008 at 09:57 AM.
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#8
05-02-2008, 10:20 PM
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This is interesting:
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#9
05-03-2008, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Why then, I wonder, do people make God less loving than humans. It seems to me that God's love surpasses all others. We are made in the image of God. God can not love less than we. I do not fully comprehend how all of this works, but that's because I am not God. But I find it so very sad that people read the scriptures and then jump to conclusions that make no sense, limiting Gods love and compassion to fit within our own limited abilities. We are all God's children, whether we call God, Jesus, Allah, Jehovah or whatever name. God's love is for all, not for just some. kara
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#10
05-03-2008, 03:37 PM
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I firmly believe that God's grace is shown to us though the life, death and resurrection of our Saviour. I believe that it is through Christ that God's love comes into the world.
How this happens, I don't know. I don't think that people are saved if they happen to believe the right things. If that were the case, then we would be in charge of our own salvation. Our knowledge would be our means of salvation. I believe that God's grace and salvation comes to us without any work on our part. Our work comes later in showing some of that love to God and to others. So many religious groups think there is a set of teachings that have to be believed. I think that it is not WHAT we believe but IN WHOM we believe. (I think it was U-dog that first said that on these forums and really made me think.) I don't understand how God's love comes to people in all places and times, but I am sure that it does. Also I have great reverence for the Bible. I am constantly distressed when people use the Bible to "prove" a point. The purpose of the Bible is to enlighten us and give us a glimpse of the mystery and majesty of God. It is not a book to be disected and analyzed. To do that to the Bible removes its meaning. Too often people present their interpretations of the Bible as Bible truth. I often disagree with interpretations, but not with the Bible itself. We human beings need to realize in all humility that all our religious teachings are interpretations. Only God sees the whole picture.
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For I am convinced that neither life nor death...neither the present nor the future nor anything in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39
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#11
05-03-2008, 06:21 PM
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Kara and Pablo I feel your words comforting and you are right we cannot see God's love as limited and conditional only for a few and not for others I guess in so many words I was trying to say that. I wasn't trying to ax Christianity or God, only to present another view point,why is it that people here when confronted with their beliefs and feelings about their own sexuality are asked constantly to justify that according to "biblical" standards." Why should they have to? I'd ask someone who was fundamentalist who went strictly by the "book" how come so many fundies divorce and how they could justify that according to biblical standards, or eat, pork, or shellfish, or not strictly observe the sabbath holy day according to old testament standards, the list could go on and on couldn't it? (Ask them and it might get 'em to shut up,lol would they have an answer for it? Sometimes I've gotten ones that were pretty convoluted.LOL.... or yeah...bu----t we are under grace, yeah and ? But Paul says those who are adulterers cannot inherit the kingdom of God and according to the bible if you remarry, you are considered an adulterer, if you strictly believe the bible and Paul's words) It proves nothing we just have to trust God. Obviously you can see that even people who are strict fundies don't go strictly by the book or do what it always says or follow it exactly, in other words they don't always play by the "rules" they expect others to follow without fail.. They pretty much as I said before "cherry pick" the verses that suit them as we all do, but what they do with it ,is use it as a weapon to brow beat LGBT people. Obviously it hasn't worked all that well, and I'll have a good laugh on that one, because LGBT people are still around.
I also read that Gay people hate Christianity and Christians, this was written on a website about fundamantalism. I think the above posting about ,"Why I left " would explain alot about this. Alot of gay people just became disillusioned with the church or God and Christianity and could no longer follow that path , or should I say the one laid out for them by the fundamentalists. Can you honestly blame them? Last edited by ladyinred; 05-03-2008 at 07:59 PM.
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#12
05-03-2008, 08:05 PM
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I'm going to post this for humor, I'm sure many of you have seen this. it's been around for sometime:http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~susan/joke/laura.htm
For those of you that are not following the recent controversy that has to do with Laura Schlessinger: she is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Paramount Television Group is currently producing a "Dr. Laura" television show. Recently she has become a convert to Judaism, and now she is Ba'al T'shuvah. Recently, she has made some statements about homosexuals that has caused the Canadian anti-hate laws to censure her... The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura which was posted on the internet... an open letter to Dr. Laura J. Kent Ashcraft May 2000 Dear Dr. Laura, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them. a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die? i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (also the biblical verses mentioned above are on the website in reference to the above and have the full verses and numbers to show they are in the bible)
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#13
05-04-2008, 01:09 PM
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Ladyinred, you ask a lot of good questions concerning the Old Testament and contradictions and discrepancies in the Bible but I can’t answer them. I have often thought about them myself. Since the fundamentalists are so big on the Old Testament and think they have all the answers, they’d probably be the best ones to ask. I'm sure they'd have some explanation whether it made sense or not.
If it's salvation you're concerned about, which you seem to be, why are you concerned with what the Old Testament says? It doesn't have anything to do with our salvation except foretelling about the Messiah to come. As for me, I don’t like the Old Testament and I don’t much care what it says. The Old Testament (before Christ came) is Judaism, not Christianity (after Christ came). The two have the same God the Father but are very different in other ways as you have noticed. I’m not a Jew so it’s not my history and Judaism is not my religion. Since I am a Christian and my salvation comes from Jesus, I am only concerned with Him and His words and teachings. Concerning what I believe about the way to be saved, I am only going by what Jesus said as is recorded in numerous places in the Gospels (His words) as to how one is saved. If anyone and everyone will be saved regardless of what they do or don't believe, then what did Jesus mean when He said that He is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" and that no one comes to the Father but by Him? What did He mean in those Scriptures that I listed above when He said that those who believe are saved/not condemned but those who believe not are damned/condemned already? I believe that Jesus was God in human form on this earth. I believe that when He said "Whosoever", He meant just that and that includes gay people. I believe what He said and I claim Him as my Savior. I don't have to always like God's way of doing things in order to believe it. I just have to choose what I'm going to do about it. Everyone else has the same choice, believe and accept or not. What they choose is between them and God. Kara, the question you ask concerning what I'd do if I had a child doesn't matter because God doesn't always do things the way we do. God is no respector of persons but I would be if I was God. But getting back to the child part, that comes back to the question of "Who is my family?" Jesus said that His family is those who do the will of God, His Father. I don't have a child but I do have a blood sister. Considering the kind of person she is and the way she has treated me in particular, I do not consider her “family”. If I had my choice, I'd never have any contact with her ever again unless she said she was sorry and started acting differently, which is highly unlikely. BlueGirl
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#14
05-06-2008, 08:34 PM
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My concern with the old testament and some of the new testament is the few scriptures that are used to "condemn" homosexuals. Paul writings did not necessarily reflect the way Christ taught or how he would behave toward the so-called outcasts. Because of these scriptures the oppression of LGBT people is generallyacceptable by the fundies. And since they have alot of clout and power in Washington DC primarily among Republican leaders the are helping to shape policies that directly impact LGBT people and their quality of life. Even James Dobson has the ear of President Bush and often, among other right wing notables. I personally do not believe the holy scriptures are the infallible word of God but written by fallible people with limited understanding in their knowledge of God. Because it is written "Therefore it is true" Primarily I wrote the above posts to help people on this forum to challenge long held assumptions and to rethink things, ask questions and perhaps to follow their own common sense and inner guidance, rather than relying on "words" to validate their position. And to understand that scripture has also been prejudicial toward other groups too, women and other minorities.Women had virtually nil rights in the Roman culture of the time.
The new testament actually accepts slavery, which now after centuries and outdated belief systems took a long time to abolish, even though there is slavery in certain forms still in the world. Blacks are still struggling for equal rights and are often the victims of hate crimes in fact ranking first in victims of hate crimes. WOW!! look how far we've come and how "Enlightened" we are.How dumbed down can we be? Without progress there is no evolving of the human mind from mere savages, to a more spiritual place..To be more compassionate toward others who aren't "US" and may not have the same view point we have or may live alternative lifestyles we don't feel comfortable with...Well we still go to war after centuries of conflict and human suffering and in fact there seems to be more war now, perhaps we will end up nuking ourselves out of existence because of that type of mentality. The ancients did not have weapons of mass destruction, so they couldn't wipe out whole populations on the earth like we can. How smart are we??? And how evolved are we from the mindset of the ancients who were often war-like and engaged in conflicts with others, mainly different tribes .WE apparently are very slow learners and tend to repeat history like a broken record, rather than learn from our mistakes .We pride ourselves on the advancement of our culture and technologically, but mentally we are like "stunted" children grasping for "straws" in the dark. The simple truth is our soul is here to evolve in love and the love of God expands within us. Last edited by ladyinred; 05-06-2008 at 11:28 PM.
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#15
05-07-2008, 02:50 PM
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I agree
Ladyinred,
I understand where you're coming from and I agree with you. But since it is the fundamentalists who have those hateful screwed up ideas and they're the ones that are causing most of the trouble for us, they need to have those things pointed out to them. I've often thought that if I ever get a chance to talk face to face with any of the anti-gay fundamentalists that use (misuse) the Bible to mistreat us and others, I want to bring up several of the things you mentioned and also point out the things that Jesus said that knocks their arguments in the head and ask them to explain how they get around the things He said. So far, I've only been able to ask in letters, which I may not get an answer to or don't have the time to debate and write all that would be required. Before Jesus came, women were nothing more than the man’s property, like their animals or anything else they owned. I’ve often thought that maybe that’s why there’s nothing said in the Old Testament about female homosexuality. Maybe what they did with each other wasn't considered important enough to mention, just so they didn’t give themselves (the man’s property) to another man. I don’t know, that’s just my opinion about it. When Jesus came, He treated women differently. Paul was a Pharisee before he became a Christian and evidently thought like the typical Jewish male thought. It would be ridiculous to think that all of his thinking changed when he became converted. Since he was a human and not a puppet or a robot, he certainly had opinions and thoughts of his own. And since he was human, not God like Jesus was, he didn’t know everything and was capable of making errors as are we all. Have you ever noticed how little the fundamentalists quote Jesus, especially when they want to use the Bible as a weapon against someone? They can’t find anything in Jesus’ teachings to fit their hateful purpose. They always use the Old Testament or something Paul said. I sometimes wonder if they’ve forgotten that it’s Jesus, not Paul, who was God in the flesh and who died to save us and that Paul was just a human like ourselves. If something Paul or the writers of the Old Testament said was contrary to what Jesus said, it’s Jesus who’s to be listened to first and foremost. But Paul is in agreement with Jesus about how a person is saved (Romans 4:5, Romans 10:10-13, Ephesians 2: 8 & 9, just to name a few). That applies to anyone and everyone, no exceptions, who believes and accepts Jesus. Slavery and wars are both contrary to the teachings of Jesus so I don’t know how the professing Christians in favor of those things can get around what Jesus said. Yes, I have a lot to ask if I ever get the chance. What I especially want to ask them is this: Even if it were a sin to be gay, if they, the fundamentalists, can be saved in spite of whatever sins they commit (surely, they won’t say they don’t commit any) why do they think they can be saved but not someone else just because someone else’s sins are different from theirs? James 2:10 says that whoever keeps the whole law but offends in one point is guilty of all. If people could be saved by being “good” (keeping all the laws), Jesus wouldn't have needed to come and die for us. It's because of His goodness, not ours, that we can be saved through Him. BlueGirl
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#16
05-07-2008, 06:23 PM
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Ancient Rome and prostitution:http://ancienthistory.about.com/libr...utionnotes.htm Women apparently didn't have any economic freedom back then or opportunities to pursue work or a career, and either were married or engaged in prostitution
Last edited by ladyinred; 05-07-2008 at 06:38 PM.
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#17
05-11-2008, 01:52 PM
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Ill read the whole thing but before i forget, i wanted to comment on this quote you said lady,
"(How can you forgive and hold onto vengeful thoughts?)Jesus did not typify this in his attitude, again when a woman was about to be stoned for adultery he did not cast a stone. " Plz... do not speak as if jesus simply saved her from being killed. He DID say, go and sin no more(or something like that). What would happen if she was to do adultery again? Do you think God would have saved her from her chosen fate(due to his own mosaic law), or forgive her again and again and again... endlessly. Id like to present what he did to the theif that did not accept him and simply scoffed at him. He(Jesus) made a bird take out both his eyes. That, imo, is not abiding by forgiveness. Then again, he might've already had the chance or had already been forgiven, but he chose not to care and sin again(in this case blasphemize against Jesus). At any rate... Forgiveness is not the same as letting sin run rampant through tolerating it. Forgiveness is finite. Otherwise there would be no point in a theocracy to have a jail(or the death sentence). Maybe thats why the Catholic church(as do the mormons) has an 'appointed by God' leader(s). Whose actions are regarded by the catholic populace to be His, as does teach the dogma. If God had a change of 'heart' in his own law... it would only make sense that he have someone in the world to express any other 'change of heart'. THis of course.. is another inconsistency in his 'absolute morality and law'.
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#18
05-14-2008, 02:46 AM
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Here is the problem with your perception you define God in your own limited and finite way, but God is infinite and you are talking about a man who died on the cross who forgave his tormentors suddenly deciding he is going to get revenge on the guy who personally insulted him on the cross next to him when he was subjected too much worse? Doesn't that seem a bit convoluted ???????? You because of your perception of Jesus some how being on the same level as you again define him in your own limited finite way as being judgmental and vindictive and who only offered forgiveness conditionally ,(here again as he died on the cross and forgave people who did much worse than his offender on the cross next to him, were they seeking his forgiveness by the way? Did they repent of their deeds? They spat at him ,scoffed at him insulted him , told him if he was the son of God why couldn't he come down off the cross and save himself) The same man who said "I've come into the world not to condemn it but to save it? Even the Apostles admitted that they made the same mistake because they saw Jesus in terms of human wisdom and saw him according to human standards and judgments. Do you honestly think that God thinks on the same level as we humans do or has weaknesses like we do , do you honestly think he is capable of prejudice , hate and other human frailties and pettiness ?
Last edited by ladyinred; 05-14-2008 at 03:09 AM.
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#19
05-14-2008, 03:38 AM
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Here is something from the lost gospels at Nag Hammadi,omitted from the bible:The Gospel of Truth
Translated by Robert M. Grant The gospel of truth is joy to those who have received from the Father of truth the gift of knowing him by the power of the Logos, who has come from the Pleroma and who is in the thought and the mind of the Father; he it is who is called "the Savior," since that is the name of the work which he must do for the redemption of those who have not known the Father. For the name of the gospel is the manifestation of hope, since that is the discovery of those who seek him, because the All sought him from whom it had come forth. You see, the All had been inside of him, that illimitable, inconceivable one, who is better than every thought. This ignorance of the Father brought about terror and fear. And terror became dense like a fog, that no one was able to see. Because of this, error became strong. But it worked on its hylic substance vainly, because it did not know the truth. It was in a fashioned form while it was preparing, in power and in beauty, the equivalent of truth. This then, was not a humiliation for him, that illimitable, inconceivable one. For they were as nothing, this terror and this forgetfulness and this figure of falsehood, whereas this established truth is unchanging, unperturbed and completely beautiful. For this reason, do not take error too seriously. Thus, since it had no root, it was in a fog as regards the Father, engaged in preparing works and forgetfulnesses and fears in order, by these means, to beguile those of the middle and to make them captive. The forgetfulness of error was not revealed. It did not become light beside the Father. Forgetfulness did not exist with the Father, although it existed because of him. What exists in him is knowledge, which was revealed so that forgetfulness might be destroyed and that they might know the Father, Since forgetfulness existed because they did not know the Father, if they then come to know the Father, from that moment on forgetfulness will cease to exist. That is the gospel of him whom they seek, which he has revealed to the perfect through the mercies of the Father as the hidden mystery, Jesus the Christ. Through him he enlightened those who were in darkness because of forgetfulness. He enlightened them and gave them a path. And that path is the truth which he taught them. For this reason error was angry with him, so it persecuted him. It was distressed by him, so it made him powerless. He was nailed to a cross. He became a fruit of the knowledge of the Father. He did not, however, destroy them because they ate of it. He rather caused those who ate of it to be joyful because of this discovery. And as for him, them he found in himself, and him they found in themselves, that illimitable, inconceivable one, that perfect Father who made the all, in whom the All is, and whom the All lacks, since he retained in himself their perfection, which he had not given to the all. The Father was not jealous. What jealousy, indeed, is there between him and his members? For, even if the Aeon had received their perfection, they would not have been able to approach the perfection of the Father, because he retained their perfection in himself, giving it to them as a way to return to him and as a knowledge unique in perfection. He is the one who set the All in order and in whom the All existed and whom the All lacked. As one of whom some have no knowledge, he desires that they know him and that they love him. For what is it that the All lacked, if not the knowledge of the Father? He became a guide, quiet and in leisure. In the middle of a school he came and spoke the Word, as a teacher. Those who were wise in their own estimation came to put him to the test. But he discredited them as empty-headed people. They hated him because they really were not wise men. After all these came also the little children, those who possess the knowledge of the Father. When they became strong they were taught the aspects of the Father's face. They came to know and they were known. They were glorified and they gave glory. In their heart, the living book of the Living was manifest, the book which was written in the thought and in the mind of the Father and, from before the foundation of the All, is in that incomprehensible part of him. This is the book which no one found possible to take, since it was reserved for him who will take it and be slain. No one was able to be manifest from those who believed in salvation as long as that book had not appeared. For this reason, the compassionate, faithful Jesus was patient in his sufferings until he took that book, since he knew that his death meant life for many. Just as in the case of a will which has not yet been opened, for the fortune of the deceased master of the house is hidden, so also in the case of the All which had been hidden as long as the Father of the All was invisible and unique in himself, in whom every space has its source. For this reason Jesus appeared. He took that book as his own. He was nailed to a cross. He affixed the edict of the Father to the cross. Oh, such great teaching! He abases himself even unto death, though he is clothed in eternal life. Having divested himself of these perishable rags, he clothed himself in incorruptibility, which no one could possibly take from him. Having entered into the empty territory of fears, he passed before those who were stripped by forgetfulness, being both knowledge and perfection, proclaiming the things that are in the heart of the Father, so that he became the wisdom of those who have received instruction. But those who are to be taught, the living who are inscribed in the book of the living, learn for themselves, receiving instructions from the Father, turning to him again. Since the perfection of the All is in the Father, it is necessary for the All to ascend to him. Therefore, if one has knowledge, he gets what belongs to him and draws it to himself. For he who is ignorant, is deficient, and it is a great deficiency, since he lacks that which will make him perfect. Since the perfection of the All is in the Father, it is necessary for the All to ascend to him and for each one to get the things which are his. He registered them first, having prepared them to be given to those who came from him. Those whose name he knew first were called last, so that the one who has knowledge is he whose name the Father has pronounced. For he whose name has not been spoken is ignorant. Indeed, how shall one hear if his name has not been uttered? For he who remains ignorant until the end is a creature of forgetfulness and will perish with it. If this is not so, why have these wretches no name, why do they have no sound? Hence, if one has knowledge, he is from above. If he is called, he hears, he replies, and he turns toward him who called him and he ascends to him and he knows what he is called. Since he has knowledge, he does the will of him who called him. He desires to please him and he finds rest. He receives a certain name. He who thus is going to have knowledge knows whence he came and whither he is going. He knows it as a person who, having become intoxicated, has turned from his drunkenness and having come to himself, has restored what is his own. He has turned many from error. He went before them to their own places, from which they departed when they erred because of the depth of him who surrounds every place, whereas there is nothing which surrounds him. It was a great wonder that they were in the Father without knowing him and that they were able to leave on their own, since they were not able to contain him and know him in whom they were, for indeed his will had not come forth from him. For he revealed it as a knowledge with which all its emanations agree, namely, the knowledge of the living book which he revealed to the Aeons at last as his letters, displaying to them that these are not merely vowels nor consonants, so that one may read them and think of something void of meaning; on the contrary, they are letters which convey the truth. They are pronounced only when they are known. Each letter is a perfect truth like a perfect book, for they are letters written by the hand of the unity, since the Father wrote them for the Aeons, so that they by means of his letters might come to know the Father. While his wisdom mediates on the logos, and since his teaching expresses it, his knowledge has been revealed. His honor is a crown upon it. Since his joy agrees with it, his glory exalted it. It has revealed his image. It has obtained his rest. His love took bodily form around it. His trust embraced it. Thus the logos of the Father goes forth into the All, being the fruit of his heart and expression of his will. It supports the All. It chooses and also takes the form of the All, purifying it, and causing it to return to the Father and to the Mother, Jesus of the utmost sweetness. The Father opens his bosom, but his bosom is the Holy Spirit. He reveals his hidden self which is his son, so that through the compassion of the Father the Aeons may know him, end their wearying search for the Father and rest themselves in him, knowing that this is rest. After he had filled what was incomplete, he did away with form. The form of it is the world, that which it served. For where there is envy and strife, there is an incompleteness; but where there is unity, there is completeness. Since this incompleteness came about because they did not know the Father, so when they know the Father, incompleteness, from that moment on, will cease to exist. As one's ignorance disappears when he gains knowledge, and as darkness disappears when light appears, so also incompleteness is eliminated by completeness. Certainly, from that moment on, form is no longer manifest, but will be dissolved in fusion with unity. For now their works lie scattered. In time unity will make the spaces complete. By means of unity each one will understand itself. By means of knowledge it will purify itself of diversity with a view towards unity, devouring matter within itself like fire and darkness by light, death by life.
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#20
05-14-2008, 03:43 AM
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... contd.He appeared, informing them of the Father, the illimitable one. He inspired them with that which is in the mind, while doing his will. Many received the light and turned towards him. But material men were alien to him and did not discern his appearance nor recognize him. For he came in the likeness of flesh and nothing blocked his way because it was incorruptible and unrestrainable. Moreover, while saying new things, speaking about what is in the heart of the Father, he proclaimed the faultless word. Light spoke through his mouth, and his voice brought forth life. He gave them thought and understanding and mercy and salvation and the Spirit of strength derived from the limitlessness of the Father and sweetness. He caused punishments and scourgings to cease, for it was they which caused many in need of mercy to astray from him in error and in chains - and he mightily destroyed them and derided them with knowledge. He became a path for those who went astray and knowledge to those who were ignorant, a discovery for those who sought, and a support for those who tremble, a purity for those who were defiled. Continued on the website;http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/got.html
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