Dr Gordon Andersons Statement on the Equality Ride

[Venari]

Here is the statement made by NCU reguarding the Equality Ride. Also there is a link to the Chapel service where Dr. Anderson spoke to the student body about why we are not welcoming the Equality Ride onto campus.

http://www.northcentral.edu/news/soulforce.php

-Venari

[BruceChris]

Venari: Dr. Anderson calls himself a Christian, as I am sure he believes himself to be. He condemns the Equality Riders as being unrepentant sinners, and cites reasons as to why he believes them worthy of judgement.
I am sure that he has Bible verses and theologians to back him up. It might surprise some of you that Jacob Reitan also has Bible verses and theologians to back him up, as well as a few scientists.

I hope to come back to edit this sometime, but I will leave you with two thoughts. First, if you could otherwise be unremarkable in other ways,
but you had to have one overriding charactoristic, would you rather be
a faggot, or a bigot?

Most liberal theologians agree that the sin of sodom that was highlighted in the Bible was inhospitality. Venari, I'm sure that you have listened to the talk by Dr. Anderson. Can you defend his hospitality?

Peace and Love, BruceChris

[Venari]

Originally Posted by BruceChris

Venari: Dr. Anderson calls himself a Christian, as I am sure he believes himself to be. He condemns the Equality Riders as being unrepentant sinners, and cites reasons as to why he believes them worthy of judgement.

I am not seeing where Dr. Anderson says they are inviting judgment, in fact he applies the "woman at the well" narrative in John to the non-condemnation of God, about 3 minuets into the address. So yes he does consider homosexuality to be a sin but he does not state it brings on Gods wrath. He also calls the students not to look at the Equality Riders in a condemning manner. So the major disagreement is viewing homosexuality as a sin yet not condemning people who "choose" to be homosexual.

Originally Posted by BruceChris

Most liberal theologians agree that the sin of sodom that was highlighted in the Bible was inhospitality. Venari, I'm sure that you have listened to the talk by Dr. Anderson. Can you defend his hospitality?

I guess on the defense of his hospitality, the Equality Riders are not guests and we do not need to demonstrate hospitality. On that note, if you look at what the students at NCU do for our community demonstrates our hospitality. Unfortunately the Equality Ride comes on terms of not being invited and as Dr Anderson says they are not showing respect for "our" beliefs, 22 minuets in the address. I am not going to say what is wrong or what is right but I feel as my many at my school do that this is an attempt to force us to change, versus the goal or "relentless non-violence" where you show us why we need to change. Also there is the perceived attempt by Soulforce to change the laws to force us to "believe" what we're told to believe. As Dr Anderson states "The Equality Ride is not about creating a dialogue but about changing the law that would undermine the first amendment right of this school." (23:40)

So when it comes right down to it, hospitality is a non-issue. The equality riders are not our guests and if your referring to homosexuals then it is an equally non-issue as the student body on a daily interacts with the GLBT population of Minneapolis and have welcomed them to sit in our chapel services and as I stated before are involved in such organizations Minnesota AIDS Project. So we show hospitality to our guests and community but not people who come with "hostile" intentions, as we perceive them.

The issue of being a faggot or a bigot is rather pointless. You can be easily be both and you can equally be neither. What matters is the whole of who the person is.

-Venari

[Dash]

Who is my neighbor?

And, who is my guest?

Very similar questions, and the ancient response Jesus gave to the first is very applicable to the second.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Venari

I guess on the defense of his hospitality, the Equality Riders are not guests and we do not need to demonstrate hospitality. On that note, if you look at what the students at NCU do for our community demonstrates our hospitality. Unfortunately the Equality Ride comes on terms of not being invited and as Dr Anderson says they are not showing respect for "our" beliefs, 22 minuets in the address. I am not going to say what is wrong or what is right but I feel as my many at my school do that this is an attempt to force us to change, versus the goal or "relentless non-violence" where you show us why we need to change. Also there is the perceived attempt by Soulforce to change the laws to force us to "believe" what we're told to believe. As Dr Anderson states "The Equality Ride is not about creating a dialogue but about changing the law that would undermine the first amendment right of this school." (23:40)

So when it comes right down to it, hospitality is a non-issue. The equality riders are not our guests and if your referring to homosexuals then it is an equally non-issue as the student body on a daily interacts with the GLBT population of Minneapolis and have welcomed them to sit in our chapel services and as I stated before are involved in such organizations Minnesota AIDS Project. So we show hospitality to our guests and community but not people who come with "hostile" intentions, as we perceive them.



-Venari

wow. you are kidding, aren't you? as a community, or even as individuals, feel you are not "required" to show hospitality to anyone you define as a stranger?

Luke 10:27-29 27And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." 28And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live."
29But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

Luke 6:32-33 32"If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.

Your example has many parallels to the Sodom and Gomorrah story: strangers show up in town. No one knows what their intentions are, and no one knew that they were angels sent by God. The townspeople sought to subdue and humiliate the strangers, presumably because of some percieved hostile intention on the part of the strangers. Only Lot offered hospitality. I'll be sure that I don't stumble across your campus any time soon.

[Joe Brummer]

This thread has such an unpleasant tone between people. I bet this could be discussed without all the sarcasm ans insults.

Proving each other right or wrong isn't exactly a way to have a dialog, it is more of a power trip.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

This thread has such an unpleasant tone between people. I bet this could be discussed without all the sarcasm ans insults.

Proving each other right or wrong isn't exactly a way to have a dialog, it is more of a power trip.

I asked questions. I believe that is encouraging dialogue. I am insulted that the opinion of the college/Venari is that anyone who shows up uninvited doesn't deserve to be treated well. I posted the scriptures that came to mind as I read Venari's post. I don't believe I insulted anyone as I asked the question. I certainly have no power here as I'm not a moderator or staff at Soulforce. I don't even try to police the discussions that take place. Sometimes, a little anger is good. it gets things out in the open where they can be discussed.

[Joe Brummer]

Anger is very good, it is what we do with the anger that counts!

I will say I live Dash's response....it is poetic.


Maybe this thought will help us with this thread:

"Here is the true meaning of compassion and nonviolence when they help us to see the enemy’s point of view, to hear his questions, to know his assessment of ourselves. For from his view we may indeed see the basic weakness of our condition, and if we are mature, we may learn and grow and profit from the wisdom of the brothers who are called the opposition."

Martin L. King, Jr.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

I am not seeing where Dr. Anderson says they are inviting judgment, in fact he applies the "woman at the well" narrative in John to the non-condemnation of God, about 3 minuets into the address. So yes he does consider homosexuality to be a sin but he does not state it brings on Gods wrath.

I guess on the defense of his hospitality, the Equality Riders are not guests and we do not need to demonstrate hospitality.
i

Venari,

Maybe I missed something along the way- perhaps this it's more evident in other threads- but I don't have a clear sense of your own perspective in regards to the comments of this Mr. Anderson etc and how these matters affect you as a student. What you present here is a defense of sorts. What I don't get is which side of the fence you fall on. I'm curious to know why you are defending his actions.

Another thing. Don't you mean to say 'on the defense of his inhospitality' in the quoted sentence above? From my point of view, his actions speak for themselves. Anything else is splitting hairs.

[NonLemming]

This is a difficult situation as: a) the school claims to instruct following the teachings of Jesus (hightly doubtful) and b) the invitation to the school was declined. We cannot force others to like us or, in this case, even talk with us.

My immediate thoughts are: move on to the next stop, let as many people know of the lack of hospitality, be sure not to give monetarily to their larger controlling system (whatever that is on their state or region level), and continue to demonstrate grace. If we are unwelcome by a private institution, then we are unwelcome. We move on. Forcing them to hear our views will not work at this stage.

The important thing is for the participants of the ride not to be discouraged, but to move on to the next town. Some will get it, some will not.

[Liberal Crozier]

I understand the correlation on all levels between the Freedom Riders of the 1960's and the Equality Riders of 2006.

The Freedom Riders, even in the age of B&W television and few channels operating twelve hours a day, knew well what the " talking points" and "spin" that they would hear from the "Last Hurrah" individuals who propped up Jim Crow. Even the most ardent supporters of spiritual segregation, men like Robertson and Falwell....are not worried about their revisionism as they attract the "Stockholm Syndrome African-American clergy and laity" as they lend vocal and resource support to their former and disingenuously-identifed enemies who are now "allies".

The enemies of my friends are my enemies, too....says a wounded US Catholic Conference as they " bedfellow " with fundamentalists who are making strategic inroads in the US and throughout Latin America....to say nothing of your immigrant populations.

What changed? What made the "moral but uninvolved majority" take notice after a century or more of violent death and oppression? It was the Freedom Riders ( and the unfortunate death of three such riders in MS ) and the courageous "ministry of presence" they evoked.

Often, and not unlike prayer, it is NOT what you say, or do or act....but that you are prayerfully IN THE MOMENT.....you are STANDING UP for truth, equality and justice. You are the living gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Venari]

Originally Posted by keltic63

wow. you are kidding, aren't you? as a community, or even as individuals, feel you are not "required" to show hospitality to anyone you define as a stranger?

Originally Posted by keltic63

Your example has many parallels to the Sodom and Gomorrah story: strangers show up in town. No one knows what their intentions are, and no one knew that they were angels sent by God. The townspeople sought to subdue and humiliate the strangers, presumably because of some percieved hostile intention on the part of the strangers. Only Lot offered hospitality. I'll be sure that I don't stumble across your campus any time soon.

Keltic,

First you have taken what I have said out of context. I never said we are not required to how hospitality to stranger I said to people who are hostile to us. There is a difference between hospitality and love. Hospitality involves welcoming someone to your home, love is your caring for that person. You can easily demonstrate one without the other, we can refuse our enemies hospitality but still show them love.

In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah you find a city state that is extremely xenophobic and would be cruel to strangers and foreigners. The Equality Riders are neither of the two. They are not foreigners, the answer why is pretty clear. Also they are not strangers for several reasons. Namely this is the parallel in the narrative they angelic visitors did nothing except come to visit, in this case the Equality Ride come with the expressed mission to change our beliefs thought force, abet nonviolent force. Secondly they are not our guests as they come to us in a hostile manner, as they are being perceived by the school administration and a most of the student body and faculty, once again I refer to Dr Andersons address.

Since you chose to quote scripture to me to show how our rejection of the Equality Ride is unchristian let us consider; 2 Corinthians 10:3-4

3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

Matthew 10:14, Mark 6:11, Luke 9:5

14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.

(Matthew quoted)

Now looking at that what is the Christian response? Refusing to allow a forum for a person, or group of people, who though words appear as a threat. Or a group of people who don’t listen to what Jesus speaks to in regards to reaching a community but rather chooses tactics of the world?

Keltic, the issue of love is not at stake here. In fact my self and several students bought several umbrellas and other things for the Equality Riders as rain is in the forecast for tomorrow... pretty much we are going to do what we can to make their visit to NCU as comfortable as possible. But, at this time, the school will not entertain a discussion on the issue or further interaction with them… that is until we perceive their tactics to be truly wanting to talk and not trying to force change.

So I ask is that being Jesus, trying to meet the needs of people who are our "enemies." Or is being Jesus coming to a community and forcing your self upon them?

-Venari

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Venari,

Maybe I missed something along the way- perhaps this it's more evident in other threads- but I don't have a clear sense of your own perspective in regards to the comments of this Mr. Anderson etc and how these matters affect you as a student. What you present here is a defense of sorts. What I don't get is which side of the fence you fall on. I'm curious to know why you are defending his actions.

Another thing. Don't you mean to say 'on the defense of his inhospitality' in the quoted sentence above? From my point of view, his actions speak for themselves. Anything else is splitting hairs.

Daniel,

No I do believe Dr Anderson is acting in the best hospitality this situation allows him to act. What many people fail to see is the position he is in. His decisions are not his alone they come with the pressures of the Assemblies of God, the History of the school, the board of regents... and I can go on and on. When it comes down to the majority in all of these groups felt the Equality Ride is not coming on honest terms and represent a threat to the school rather then an chance for an open dialogue.

I defend Dr Anderson for I know the man is one of the most honest, sincere, kind, caring, compassionate... I can go on again... person I have ever met. I trust his words and actions are taken to sincerely meet the best interest of the first the students, second the school and finally his self. Also he asks the students to limit interaction with the Riders as we have seen the generation of media spectacle when that has happened so far. Yet he will not stop us from reaching out to meet the needs of the Riders. That is why I defend his actions.

I have often stated I strive for the same goals as Soulforce, but within the Assemblies of God. When it comes down to it I, like many others, are being forced where to stand. The fact of not listening to their message has nothing to do with it, what comes down to it is the manner in which each is going to and has conducted themselves. We refuse to welcome them because we view their actions as hostile and dishonest. Yet there is the refusal to follow the basic teaching of Jesus of when a community refuses to listen/accept you move on as a testimony against them, not to trespass onto private property... pretty much the disciples preached their message with out "civil disobedience" but the Equality Ride chooses to use that tactic.

From my position I see the most Christ-like actions coming from the school not from the Equality Ride. I know many of you will disagree. But I will freely say I see "unchristian" behavior from everyone involved. From how the Equality Ride is conducting themselves to Dr Anderson stance of the arresting of the trespassers onto our school. It was a tough decision to make but sadly it was one that had to be made.

-Venari

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

In fact my self and several students bought several umbrellas and other things for the Equality Riders as rain is in the forecast for tomorrow... pretty much we are going to do what we can to make their visit to NCU as comfortable as possible. But, at this time, the school will not entertain a discussion on the issue or further interaction with them… that is until we perceive their tactics to be truly wanting to talk and not trying to force change.

Well, this is very generous of you, certainly. Your actions speak for themselves.

Now a sentence here confuses me. On the one hand you tell us that you are being generous in your actions and then "the school" and "we" need to know that you are not being forced to change.

Talk is talk- and sometimes very cheap. No is ever forced to change. A good long relationship (I've been in one with a man for 14 years now) teaches one that. Retationships are a dance- that is- if they work. No one changes anyone. We only change ourselves. How you can perceive that you are being forced to change is beyond me.

Perhaps there is another tension at play here which is often behind many a defensive postion:

Love the sinner and hate the sin.

If you and your school see the Riders as inherently sinful- and therefore unworthy of your hospitality- well that's certainly an issue worth looking at. But please don't blame the riders for an unexamined 'projection'. It just reduces the interaction- the dance- to a one footed hop.

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Love the sinner and hate the sin.

If you and your school see the Riders as inherently sinful- and therefore unworthy of your hospitality- well that's certainly an issue worth looking at. But please don't blame the riders for an unexamined 'projection'. It just reduces the interaction- the dance- to a one footed hop.

No it is not that they are views as inherently sinful- and therefore unworthy of your hospitality. The school is maintaining a stance that homosexual activity is a sin. The rejection of the Equality Ride rests in their stated goal to "change school policies." That is one of the key places of tension and why there is a refusal. The school sees an attempt to force change verses having a discussion. This is where the view of hostility comes in and why there is a refusal to allow them onto campus.

-Venari

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

Daniel,

No I do believe Dr Anderson is acting in the best hospitality this situation allows him to act. What many people fail to see is the position he is in. His decisions are not his alone they come with the pressures of the Assemblies of God, the History of the school, the board of regents... and I can go on and on.

I defend Dr Anderson for I know the man is one of the most honest, sincere, kind, caring, compassionate... I can go on again... person I have ever met.

That is why I defend his actions.

I have often stated I strive for the same goals as Soulforce, but within the Assemblies of God. When it comes down to it I, like many others, are being forced where to stand.

We refuse to welcome them because we view their actions as hostile and dishonest. Yet there is the refusal to follow the basic teaching of Jesus of when a community refuses to listen/accept you move on as a testimony against them, not to trespass onto private property... pretty much the disciples preached their message with out "civil disobedience" but the Equality Ride chooses to use that tactic.

From my position I see the most Christ-like actions coming from the school not from the Equality Ride.i

You posted your message to me just as I posted a message to you. In the crosshairs it seems! Sorry I did not see it earlier. I would have modulated my response accordingly.

Ok. I get it. You're 'working from within' and question the intergrity and motivation of the Riders.

What's at play here I wonder besides all this talk about who is being more Christlike? A fear that you and the school will be branded in the media as being intorlerant? If you really have the higher moral ground here, what do you care? You will have the satisfaction of your moral clarity. And why does there need to be this higher moral ground- which is how this whole discussion seems to be playing out?

Again- talk is talk- annd often cheap.

I understand your allegiance to those whom you respect. However, I do not see why you must defend he actions jsut because the man is in a pickle as far as the denomination is concerned. You seem quick to point of the differences in percieved motivations between your school and the Riders. Why not within your school itself?

I can think of many reasons, nonetheleast being that you aren't, can't and dont' want to be out- doing so would lead to that as a matter of course- at least if done publically- would it not. That's the pickle perhaps. And if so- you have may compassion and love.

I was once an AG student and Evangel College and well remember my growing- and feared- selfknowledge. It's wasn't any fun.

What is it you fear my friend?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

The rejection of the Equality Ride rests in their stated goal to "change school policies." That is one of the key places of tension and why there is a refusal. The school sees an attempt to force change verses having a discussion. This is where the view of hostility comes in and why there is a refusal to allow them onto campus.

So- What's your goal? Do you want to bring change to your school? Would you like to be 'out' if you could be?

Why bite the hand that is trying to feed you?

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Daniel

So- What's your goal? Do you want to bring change to your school? Would you like to be 'out' if you could be?

Why bite the hand that is trying to feed you?

Originally Posted by Daniel

What is it you fear my friend?

My goal? Well, I guess that generates a confusing response so here goes;

I am working with several other pastors to increase awareness and sensitivity to and understanding of homosexual people. I fight against the view the homosexuality is a "uniquely grave" sin that incurs the wrath of God and other such foolishness. As I stated to my advisor my goal is to create a day when a GLBQ youth in the AG can openly talk to their youth pastor about their sexuality without the fear of bigotry. If people want to think homosexuality is a sin then that is their free choice but I will remind them it is no greater or less then the white lie they told their spouse.

In summary there it is. If you want to know more I could post my senior thesis, but I don’t think Jamie would like me posting 100 something pages of text.

But my goal is not to change policies but to change minds about what the policies mean. I fully agree with the stance NCU has because of the abuses of the rules that have occurred in the past. Regardless of sexual orientation I firmly believe sexual activity has its place in a committed, "married", relationship which is what the rules are in place to up hold, not to single out and discriminate against homosexual people.

What do I fear? Well, I am pretty open with my sexuality on campus. Many student do not know for the fact unless they are a friend I really do not think it is any of their business. But above that all the people who would make the decision to dismiss me from the university do know. So I guess my fear comes down to the simple fact of the backlashes I am now seeing within the AG and other denominations. But I fear what the Equality Ride represents to academic freedom

''If there is any principle of the Constitution that more imperatively calls for attachment than any other it is the principle of free thought, Not free thought for those who agree with us, but freedom for the thought that we hate." Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., 1928.

Part of freedom is the ability to dissent and disagree with what other say. It is the foundation of academic freedom. I feel the Equality Ride represents a rejection of this principle. NCU from its history teaches one thing and the UofM teaches another. But if you want to attend NCU there is the expectation you will abide by the rules they lay forth, it is part of the academic system there. So, while I am here I can be gay, but I cannot enter into a same-sex relationship while I am a student. It is what I freely give to earn the education I desire. I could attend Augsburg just a few miles away and earn a similar degree and be free to have a relationship, but it comes back to I choose to attend NCU and as such I am expected to choose to abide by the rules they put forth.

So I guess my fear is the loss of academic freedom.

-Venari

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

I am working with several other pastors to increase awareness and sensitivity to and understanding of homosexual people. I fight against the view the homosexuality is a "uniquely grave" sin that incurs the wrath of God and other such foolishness.

Well good for you brother. That's saying something.

In summary there it is. If you want to know more I could post my senior thesis, but I don’t think Jamie would like me posting 100 something pages of text.

Yes. I doubt that he would.

So I guess my fear comes down to the simple fact of the backlashes I am now seeing within the AG and other denominations. But I fear what the Equality Ride represents to academic freedom..

So I guess my fear is the loss of academic freedom.

Backlash. Freedom.

Those are very real things. As for the former: could you lose your semi-outed-ness and be thrust into the spotlight where you don't wish to be? Possibly. I can see why you would fear that. That's what they call a reasonable fear.

It looks like- from what your relate-that you've been able to carve out something of a niche where you can, if you don't engage in any sexual activity, attend your school and get your degree. The Ride is at odds with your personal trajectory. You don't want anyone messing with it. Fair enough.

To degress a minute. I wouldn't put my hopes in your thesis if I were you. I am open to another view, but if long experience is any indication, these matters are rarely sorted out through the head and intellectual positioning, no matter how asute. No one 'learns' to be a bigot or a homophobe any more than one 'unlearns' it. Did someone sit you done and say "ok- we're going to learn how bad gay people are today." I rather doubt it. We get our cue from others in thes matters in a far more insidious manner. We get the feeling first- the thought comes later. Reason, while valuable, only goes so far. That said, there is a minority of people who 'get it' when presented with 'evidence'. That's not, however, how most people 'get over' their phobia. They only do so, it seems, with contact with gay people.

Now, if you want to write your thesis as a declaration of your own freedom- that's another matter entirely.

Freedom. It's a big topic, but I disagree with you that the Riders don't respect that. They just don't have so a narrow view of it. There seems to be two things at play here: your clear and rightly understood interest in getting your degree as well as the goal of the Riders. What is at odds is the perception wherein the latter interfers with the former. My 'take' here is that hiding behind the fig leaf of academic freedom doesn't further anything and is only a sign of your fear. By focusing on the riders- it could be said- you keep the attention off of you.

Understandable.

You may well be between a rock and a hard place. Change is never easy. And it may seem to come at your personal expense. There is another way to deal with this. And that is to face your fear for what it is. Your ememy, in the end, may not seem so- but prove to be your friend.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

But my goal is not to change policies but to change minds about what the policies mean. I fully agree with the stance NCU has because of the abuses of the rules that have occurred in the past. Regardless of sexual orientation I firmly believe sexual activity has its place in a committed, "married", relationship which is what the rules are in place to up hold, not to single out and discriminate against homosexual people.i

Hmmm... missed this first time around.

You really like the policies huh? Ok. I can go with that. But would these policies allow gay people to have relationships if they were married? I rather doubt that seeing that the present state of affairs within the AG is far from such a position. In sum then, why are you defending these polices? It would seem that you are fighting for precious little wiggle room. And room to wiggle where? That's what I don't get here.

It seems to me that you only want the cage to be a little bigger. This doesn't fly.