How does one begin to include everyone?

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Thanks so much for the reply and the interest on the part of one of our thoughtful members. I hope that my thoughts will add to our dialogue concerning what it means to be "catholic" in my sphere of reference. I think we (or some members) have a different interpretation of what "inclusion" or "inclusivity" means. For me (and I am not representing the entire United Catholic Church fellowship), inclusion means that all brothers and sisters are represented in the fellowship or community of faith. I have attended services of the other UCC (the United Church of Christ) and am familiar with their mission and their polity. I admire them greatly and am part of their social action network here in Southwest Florida where we are stamping out slavery and indentured servitude little by little. I have also attended a service of the Metropolitan Community Church here in Naples whose mission is one of diversity and inclusion. The practice of the United Church of Christ from my extensive research and contact does appear to confirm their "open and affirming" declaration. However, I didn't see or hear "open and affirming" at MCC in Naples. I felt I was not "included." When I have more time, I'll explain in detail why I felt segregated.

I firmly believe that inclusion must come by welcoming with open arms all who come to celebrate as a fellowship or community. In an ideal world, 10-20% of the membership would be GLBT; 10-20% would be persons of color; 50-70% would be heterosexuals of any race or ethnicity. I guess you get the idea of my vision of inclusion. One's sexuality and/or gender identification are not to be celebrated; no, they are to be affirmed and embraced and become part of the mainstream of the culture. Once we begin to divide into subcultures, we find ourselves more and more isolated, one from the other. An example of a subculture is the deaf subculture; by isolating themselves deaf people are not participating fully in the culture or society in which they live. Helen Keller is a wonderful example of how a person can not only participate but contribute and enrich the entire society.

I am looking for ways to integrate all my brothers and sisters who want to follow the Christ into one loving, accepting community which makes the difficult choices the Christ followers must make. Speak out against war; fight for freedom of all citizens and all residents (legal and illegal) of the country.

This is just a beginning. I've spent many of my 66 years observing, studying, working to learn to love all my brothers and sisters whoever they are and wherever they are.

Love and blessings in Christ and Benedict,
Father Albert OSB

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by FatherAlbert

However, I didn't see or hear "open and affirming" at MCC in Naples. I felt I was not "included."

I'm not qualified to address the rest, and probably not qualified to address this, but I'm gonna try anyway.

I have a feeling that what you felt at that MCC is similar to what a white man would have felt at an African Methodist Episcopal Church in the 1950s. Both churches were created to carve out a safe place for an oppressed minority to practice their Christianity.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be a need to create an MCC or AME, but this isn't a perfect world. It's a world where African Americans weren't welcome in most Christian churches then, and where LGTBs aren't welcome in most Christian churches now. I wish it were different, but this is the best we can do under the circumstances.

As civil rights for African Americans have become more and more a part of the culture, a lot of the original reason for the existence of the AME has gone away too. But what's left behind is the heritage and tradition that is specific to the AME, and that needs to be honored.

Likewise, someday civil rights for LGTBs will become more acknowledged and practiced and ingrained, and a lot of the original reason for the MCC's literal sanctuary will have fallen away. But there will also be a heritage and tradition that those outside the minority group will need to understand must be honored.

So I guess what I'm saying is that yeah, we should work for full inclusion in mainstream churches (I've never been to an MCC, but I'm trying to help the UMC get on the stick.) but at the same time we need to acknowledge that having a safe haven has been and will continue to be an important part of the movement. And one of the side effects is that straight folks might not feel full inclusion, because the structure, ministries, and liturgical focus of the MCC were built for someone else.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by Matt Algren

I'm not qualified to address the rest, and probably not qualified to address this, but I'm gonna try anyway.

I have a feeling that what you felt at that MCC is similar to what a white man would have felt at an African Methodist Episcopal Church in the 1950s. Both churches were created to carve out a safe place for an oppressed minority to practice their Christianity.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be a need to create an MCC or AME, but this isn't a perfect world. It's a world where African Americans weren't welcome in most Christian churches then, and where LGTBs aren't welcome in most Christian churches now. I wish it were different, but this is the best we can do under the circumstances.

As civil rights for African Americans have become more and more a part of the culture, a lot of the original reason for the existence of the AME has gone away too. But what's left behind is the heritage and tradition that is specific to the AME, and that needs to be honored.

Likewise, someday civil rights for LGTBs will become more acknowledged and practiced and ingrained, and a lot of the original reason for the MCC's literal sanctuary will have fallen away. But there will also be a heritage and tradition that those outside the minority group will need to understand must be honored.

So I guess what I'm saying is that yeah, we should work for full inclusion in mainstream churches (I've never been to an MCC, but I'm trying to help the UMC get on the stick.) but at the same time we need to acknowledge that having a safe haven has been and will continue to be an important part of the movement. And one of the side effects is that straight folks might not feel full inclusion, because the structure, ministries, and liturgical focus of the MCC were built for someone else.

Dear Matt: I agree with you. Truth be told there are still lots and lots of white churches where Afro-Americans are not welcomed. It has been said that Sunday morning is the most segregated time in our country. Some would like to suggest that racism does not still institutionally exist in this country and thus they would all like to pretend we're color blind.

Here in California we had a black guy who worked hard to overturn affirmative action. At the moment I can't recall his name, but the damage he has done is mighty.

It also reminds me of the issue of privelege that we so reluctantly acknowledge and resist. As white people, we live with an expectation that we will be welcomed anywhere. Similarly heterosexual people (especially white heterosexuals) walk around with an expectation of being fully welcomed everywhere.

As you said, in a perfect world, that would be the dream. But we live in a world where people of color and people of differing gender identities are not welcomed, and that is the way that racism and heterosexism hurt ALL PEOPLE, not just those discriminated against.

Kara

[FatherAlbert]

My dear brother and sister,

Thank you for taking the time to reflect and respond. I didn't fully explain my experience at MCC Naples. Firstly, I did not announce that I was heterosexual and I was dressed in my clericals (collar and black suit). The preacher was excellent and spoke about giving, emphasizing that spreading the news of their small congregation was one of the ways of giving. And he spoke about welcoming all and their mission to be an inclusive community.

When you limit your appeal solely to the GLBT population, you are working against growing a faith community. I would like you to reflect on the real difference between color and sexual orientation. I don't provide answers; I just ask questions.

My experiences have been very positive: attending for four summers an Episcopal Church in Salem, MA where the rector was a gay man and the congregation was a real mixture of all kinds: black, white, gay, straight, old, young, families, singles. We all gathered together for worship and for social activities. I also know several friends who are long-standing members of the United Church of Christ congregation in Salem where both gay and straight worshippers celebrate their differences with great joy and are truly "open and affirming" in all respects. Their gay and lesbian members are wonderful contributing members of their church in every way.

I chose the United Catholic Church because of the vision and mission of the founder and Primate of this post-denominational fellowship. We have women priests and bishops (our presiding bishop is a woman and a wonderful shepherd), we have gay and lesbian clergy, we have black, white, and native American clergy (I'm the native American; actually, mixed: white and native American.) All of our clergy are working people or retired from their careers; most of us who are still working are hospice chaplains or military chaplains in Veterans' hospitals; while still others are performing jobs in other areas of social work. We aren't church builders per se; we serve those who have been abandoned by their former churches or have been excommunicated; or who feel uncomfortable in churches that discriminate overtly or covertly against them for whatever reason. We do not accept pedophiles at any level of ministry. If that makes us biased, then so be it.

I am hoping that more and more people will respond and reflect on what separating brothers and sisters for worship will accomplish, especially for those who say that they are following the Christ. He is the yardstick against which we measure ourselves. The rest of the nonsense must be left long in the past. As my mentor, Joan Chittester, a Roman Catholic Benedictine and Christian mystic says: "Nothing we do can change the past; everything we do can change the future."

Please try to be open and to think outside the box! Followers of Christ are real people living in the 21st century. Most of what we have learned from our different denominations and fellowships must be left behind. There is no room or biblical reason for guilt about who we are. God made us; and what He saw he said was "good." My dream is that we can all worship together and celebrate our differences before God and our neighbors. I pray and work toward that dream becoming a reality every day, both as a priest and a Benedictine monk who lives in the world, not behind monastery walls.

Blessings in Christ and Benedict,
Father Albert OSB

P.S. I have been married to my first and only love for 36 years. Throughout the years we have made friends of all who have cared to accept our friendship. We have differences in both of our families: GLBT relatives, black and Asian, Jewish and Buddhist, and pagan feminist, and I guess whatever other differences there might be are among our own family members. In my life I have experienced the love we all have for one another and yet we can embrace and celebrate our differences. How good God is!

[BruceChris]

It's true, on Sunday morning most people do head for their comfort zone, and their peer group. As some of you have shown, you can sometimes reach out to others not like yourself, and build a congregation.

In my predominantly gay church, we keep getting more straight people insisting that they want to come too, as well as pastors from various other churches, and over the past few months we have gotten several African American members. So maybe it is mostly a matter of having an accepting and positive attitude.

Yet somehow there is often something about more conservative churches that often gets in the way.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Bruce Chris,

Stay away from those churches which do not state up front their vision and their mission statement. A faith community should reflect as closely as possible the community-at-large. That is my opinion. That is the environment in which I am happiest. But that is also who I am! I love difference, openness, authenticity, true diversity and inclusivity. That's my idea of church. Unity among follower of Christ is my vision. My mission is to make that a reality however I can. I have the age, the knowledge, and the faith to remain steadfast to my vision and mission until the end. Having enjoyed ill health for many years and undergone lots of surgeries, I work hard every day to do what the Holy Spirit directs me to do. Every day is a beginning; we are born anew when we wake up each morning. How wonderful! That is the reason I say to myself all the time: How good God is!

I try to remain non-judgmental with all things in my life. I fail many times each day. Although I know that only God can judge, I do find myself making judgments every day. Sometimes it is being impatient with the person in front of me at the gas pump because they aren't moving fast enough for me; sometimes it is in the supermarket or other store when the cashier's English isn't as good as I would like; sometimes I judge people on television because they aren't thinking the way I want them to. Thanks to God for His constant presence with me to remind me to refrain from any form of judgment. Like all humans, I fall time and time again, only to get up and keep on trying. I try to picture Jesus on His way to His crucifixion, falling three times and then being nailed to that cross on which He died in disgrace. Remember His saying, "Abba, Father , forgive them for they know not what they are doing!"

To follow the Christ is to choose the narrow path. That sometimes means making the choice to chase after rainbows, to be a Don Quijote and never lose you sight of the ideal. It's a good thing to dream the impossible dream. That's the way that dreams come true.

Love and blessings in Christ and Benedict,
Father Albert OSB

[Alecto]

Ok, so, I don't go to church, and maybe this is one of those things I should stay out of. But I think that I myself kind of prove my point: I think it's entirely possible that GLBT folks might have different spiritual needs than our heteronormative peers. And that certainly doesn't mean other folks aren't welcome, but if they have different needs than we do, they might not find their own met. I think it would be GREAT if there was enough time, and enough people, enough brainpower and enough emotional energy to serve EVERYONE. But realistically, don't most religious orders tend to specialize in a certain ministry? It's like trying to fix everything in the world: it's a good way to burn out real quick. Like I said, I don't attend the MCC churches or anything, but I don't see anything wrong with something that's aimed at US, in terms that we don't have to translate.

[Daniel]

This is an interesting discussion, one which I do not feel myself fully qualified to participate in: like Alecto, I am not currently attending a church. That said, I did serve as a professional choirmember for about 15 years here in NYC- most of that time spent at one particular parish. You might say I am retired from that endeavor. And being something of a Buddhist, do not feel a particular need to worship at the moment. Thoughm if asked to choose, I would join an Episcopal church. I guess you might say I am on hiatus.

What does all this have to do with the matter of inclusion? Good question. I think that we live in a world in which striving for inclusion is an every present need. That said, there is also seems to be a need for exclusivity: that's what seems to help even the most ardent fundamentalist feel safe and secure. And while this may sounds radical, I think that even the conservative fundamentalist who eshews inclusion needs his/her 'space', as odd as that may sound.

As such, I think this is part and parcel of a non-violent view of the issue you have brought to the table: giving to others- even those that exclude others- the very inclusion that they seek.

[wmanion]

If God is truly not a respecter of persons and his love encompasses all of us, regardless of our sexuality or skin color, should not we put this aside when we worship? We are all different and each of us have our own gifts and talents to bring to the table and I believe we should strive to bring all walks of life together. Can the foot say to the toe that I have no need of thee?
I have not been to church is a long time. One reason is that I cannot find a church that is affirming in my area that I can go to, however, I believe we all have basically the same spiritual needs. I do not think in this day and age we can afford to be exclusive. As I have learned God's love is inclusive of everyone and I think we do each other a disservice, if we chose to be exclusive. I am not saying you have to give up your individualism, but we need to reach out to one another. I hope this made sense and I am getting the discussion correctly.

Love,
Bill

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Bill,

You are truly blessed! You have found and embraced the message. I am saddened that you haven't found a faith community to share the message and to support and affirm you. And more, to celebrate the beauty in all of creation: we share more in common as children of God than we differ from each other. I fully agree that we must hold fast to our individuality. That's the part of us that we all need to celebrate and to share with our brothers and sisters. No two of us are the same! Let's not let them put us in the box with all the other common crackers (I think that's an old, old term for Saltines.)

May God bless you and may His Spirit continue to inspire you to seek the Truth no matter the cost.

Love in Christ,
Father Albert OSB

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Alecto,

Although I fully agree that all of us have our individual needs, our spiritual needs can be fulfilled within an "open and affirming" faith community. Jesus was the Good Shepherd to all: the poor, the wealthy, the sick and infirm, the "sinner." I don't want to begin a discussion of sin. My view is very simple but, I guess, radical, for these times of finger pointing. We do need to have clubs where like people can congregate and affirm, celebrate, and support each other in whatever their "thing" is. I don't believe that clubs, social and political groups should be included on the same level as a faith community. A true faith community (in my humble opinion) should force us to think outside the box and to speak our truth and listen to all our brothers and sisters. Yes, I know that this is certainly a quixotic way of thinking and believing, but I also believe that some of us are called to love unconditionally as much as is humanly possible. Don't we all believe that God loves us unconditionally with all our bumps and warts?! Only God can judge our thoughts and actions in this life.

If anyone is feeling the need to "herd" to fulfill their spiritual needs, they must search within where God is waiting to bless them and enfold them in His embrace which surpasses anything we can experience with our senses. I've been there and know of what I speak. (A story when I am feeling more secure in this venue.)

Let's all gather together at the river! Let's show them we are followers of the Christ by our love, especially when we assemble to worship Him.

Love in Christ,
Father Albert OSB

P.S. I am a professed monk in an ecumenical religious order without walls. We all live in the world and have jobs and all the rest that most people do. We try to live according to the Rule of Benedict and practice certain devotions every day. You can find a little bit about us on the website, the Grey Robed Monks of St. Benedict or at GROSB.

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by FatherAlbert

I didn't fully explain my experience at MCC Naples. Firstly, I did not announce that I was heterosexual and I was dressed in my clericals (collar and black suit). The preacher was excellent and spoke about giving, emphasizing that spreading the news of their small congregation was one of the ways of giving. And he spoke about welcoming all and their mission to be an inclusive community.

When you limit your appeal solely to the GLBT population, you are working against growing a faith community. I would like you to reflect on the real difference between color and sexual orientation. I don't provide answers; I just ask questions.

First, I'm not sure why you pointed out that you were wearing your uniform or why you even made it a point to wear it. Were you expecting to get special recognition or something? I don't understand.

Second, this is a conversation. We each provide questions and answers. That's how a conversation works. If you're just here to school us on your theories, I'll move on to another thread.

Third (I hate it when I number things, but I've come this far...), in regard to the rest of your post, you're thinking too much about yourself and your comfort instead of the needs and comfort of the community that the MCC was created to serve.

African American churches, more so than the mainstream churches that rejected them, became (and continue to be) not just churches, but social centers where members of that community can go and not worry about their minority status being a concern. I see no reason to assume that LGTB churches would be any different.

In other words, and I mean this in the least hostile way possible, it isn't about you. It's about people who've been rejected and/or attacked and/or injured, and their need of a safe place. You (not They) need to be sensitive to their (not your) needs.

Again, is this the perfect setup? No. But it's the best we can do given the circumstances in the world we live in.

[stevenrkelly]

This is a great discussion. For 29 years I served as a UMC pastor. During that time I was aware that an key componet of Christianity is that it is always lived within community. American culture focuses so much on individualism and I"m afraid that the American Christianity has moved its focus to individual faith as opposed to living out the faith in community. So many churches, liberal and conservative, seek to build community with folks that look like them, think like them, etc. Many faith communities have lost the art of learning how to agree to disagree.
As a therapist I know that human beings have a hard-wired, biological need to belong, to contribute, to receive, to feel appreciated, and to feel like someone "gets" them.
All that's to say: We are hard-wired for community. Faith communities can provide healthy venues to get those needs met as well the need to connect with something great than ourselves, that "Wholly Other" that some call God.
The hard part in all this? Getting along, giving people space to be. coming together around our common needs. I am hopeful because I have seen adn experienced glimpses of it.
So I keep going, hoping, believing.

Grace and Peace
Steve

[andrewlittle]

I am thoroughly enjoying, in both an intellectual and faith sense, this conversation. While I see some disagreements, I see them being played out lovingly and respectfully - oh, that we could say that about the world at large.

I see some of the distinctions being made as the constant battle between "is and ought."

In an ideal world, I agree totally that all - with all meaning all - ought to be able to worship together with no barriers, distinctions or limitations for any reason whatsoever.

It is, however, not an ideal world. The ideal is that to which we work towards - just like we work towards the Kingdom of God. The constant tension between the "now but not yet" is lived out in many ways - not the least of which is the way church is frequently segregated.

Given that there is an "is" - a place and time in which there exists people who have been harmed by the church universal and particular - there needs to be a venue that allows them some freedom from the harm they have experienced.

One benefit of being part of the dominant culture, like myself, is that I can easily find places within which I can be "home". Being a white, middle aged, heterosexual, educated, middle income male allows me a wide rage of areas in which I am in my element. If I change of the characteristics of dominance, however my choices start to decrease significantly. While this may not be the way it ought to be, it is the way it is.

In living into the Kingdom of God, we absolutely need to work towards mitigating the circumstances that cause the "is", but we cannot do that while ignoring that what "is" does in fact exist. We cannot just jump to the "ought" without first changing the conditions that block access to it.

[Alecto]

I have a tendancy to post later at night, and so I've missed one very important question. It's very unclear to me from your post just what made you uncomfortable at the MCC, and I think that might shed some important light, for me anyway, into what this is all about.

Also, Andy: the constant battle between "is and ought." This is how I conceptualize my experience as a gay man. I shouldn't have to be patient with people; it shouldn't be my job to educate straight folks (and I do still think it's wrong and unfair when they automatically expect me to). I shouldn't have to limit my behaviors at certain times of day or in certain places because of fears for my physical safety. But pretending that everything is the way it should be doesn't get me any closer to the way it should be. It just made me really happy that you used those terms that resonated with me.

[Daniel]

Andy- I really appreciate what you've articulated on the matter being discussed. You brought to mind what I have heard called 'relative reality', being a thing which certain persons, like those who are trying to get elected, are thinking about all the time. And then there is the 'cosmic reality'. Something else altogether. The big picture.

Sounds like your words 'is' and 'ought'. And I have to say, having an 'ought' imposed on one is like putting on a jacket that's a bit too tight.

Don't be all want a little more comfort than that?

[kara speltz]

One of the things missing in this discussion it seems to me is that somehow it feels to me Fr. Albert that you're judging all MCCs by your experience at one. I'm Roman Catholic and attend a very welcoming RC parish in Berkeley.

But I have also attended a number of different MCCs in my travels. Each one of them is very different, as are various RC parishes. I'm an out lesbian at my own parish, and I preach and am a Eucharistic Minister. That surely would not be allowed at most RC parishes. The same is obviously true within the MCC community. Some are more welcoming than others. Many of them have a number of straight allies attending because they are such a welcoming community.

I also want to reiterate what I wrote in my first post about privelege. I think Fr. Albert you really need, to take some time and pay attention to that issue. Because as a heterosexual, there is no way that you are not influenced by that; just as I am influenced by my white skin privelege.

I believe you are here as an ally, but it is imperative that as an ally, you recognize heterosexual privelege and work to overcome it.

One of the most outstanding experiences of a straight man recognizing his heterosexual privelege for me goes back to the year 2000. We were protesting at the United Methodist Conference in Cleveland. We were to meet with some of the bishops, and had created a "set of demands," so to speak. One of them was the reinstatement of our beloved Jimmy Creech who had been defrocked the previous Novemeber for performing same gender weddings.

Jimmy had not been at the meeting the night before when this came up, so when he saw the demands, he stood up and said, much to our astonishment. "I will not tread on my heterosexual privelege. I will not be reinstated in the Methodist Church, until every LGBT person who has been refused ordination because of their gender identity has been ordained."

What an amazing insight on the part of this very holy, man! None of us had even thought about that issue.

Acknowledging our position of privelege is the first step to becoming a trusted ally.

Kara

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Kara,

It's sad that we all as humans tend to place everyone in a certain category. It is, as I've stated before, the herding instinct, both to want to be with others who look, act, talk, and think like us in every way. The more variables we can find in common, the more magnetic and attractive the group.

I find it rather humorous that you feel that I am privileged as a "heterosexual male." I've really never thought about it, but now that the idea has been brought to my attention, I know that I have never been treated with any privilege by anybody, other than a hateful group of fundamentalists who invited me to worship because I seemed to be the correct color and had a family name that might indicate that I was ripe for the picking. This happened in the South when I was in the Army during the Vietnam war. It was also my very first experience of overt and very aggressive racism.

No, Kara, I don't come from a position of privilege in any respect. I have always been the outsider looking in. Even now, in my choice of fellowship I am an outsider because I am not allowed to celebrate Eucharist in any of the denominations which have a Eucharistic liturgy in the Catholic sense. I do facilitate small groups in centering prayer and "lectio divina" and spiritual reading groups using books that our group decides they want to study in depth. This all takes place in an Episcopalian community where I am not allowed on the altar in any capacity.

I admire you for staying with the Roman Catholic church. I felt hypocritical staying when I was in my mid-forties because of the concentration on the abortion issue every Sunday and the thinking that Roman Catholicism held all the Truth. I was told that all my Protestant relatives were living in error and even might not be able to go to heaven. Many of the Church rules made no sense to me. The more I prayed and read and spoke with people who had different thoughts, the more I felt alienated from the Church. And so, for me, I had to begin a search for a fellowship that was "open and affirming" and didn't impose all the restrictions and the guilt which the Church had placed on me. There is much more to my personal story which I am not ready to disclose at this time.

I shall refrain from posting until I once again feel that this is not a place that welcomes everyone to discuss. I really don't appreciate angry people making inferences about my motives for doing what I do. I do not wear a "uniform." I do want to be identified as a minister or priest when I visit the hospital or am performing any duties of a pastoral nature. Incidentally, my finding is that when I am dressed as a priest, I am usually looked upon suspiciously and with some disdain. That's a discussion for another time.

I don't have any theories that I am trying to expound. Unless you believe that my conviction that God loves us all unconditionally before all time is a theory.

Love and blessings to all my brothers and sisters wherever you are and whoever you are,
Father Albert OSB

[Alecto]

I'm not trying to be pedantic or judgemental, or even snarky. One of the major points about any kind of privilige is that it goes unnoticed by those who hold it until it is brought to their attention. That's a part of the privilige is that you don't have to recognize it.
It's not about "People see I'm straight so they always like me!". It's a whole list of things that sometimes apply to straight folks, but almost never apply to those of us on the non-heteronormative side. And it's not the only kind of privilige operating, so that while I lack hetero privilige, I do still have full access to male privilige, and white privilige. More information about what we're talking about, specifically with heterosexual privilige, can be found here and here. Surely, there's more on google, but these sites link to other articles about white privilige that might better explain the concepts.

(Maybe if someone else knows about topics within this forum discussing privilige, they'd be so kind as to link? I can't remember any in recent history)


I would also gently point out that the frustration you're feeling about people being "angry", and you don't know why: that's all a part of the different needs that different people have. That you don't understand why these folks might question your motives demonstrates a general lack of understanding on your part of what it means to be queer in America. There's plenty of folks who will tell you that we're no different from anyone else. I beg to differ: in so many ways, we're similar, and it's so important to remember that, but in doing so we can't forget that because of our place in society, and the effects that has on us, we are different in some ways too. At least some of us. And ignoring that doesn't help us out any.

[Daniel]

Dear Father Albert,

I would ask you to please remember that site exists to bring many kinds of people together around the table with nonviolence and inclusion at the center of the table.

Please remember: you started the discussion and pulling out now really is rather bad form on your part. I encourage you to stay around and think about things. You last post comes across to this reader as very defensive, and as such, is hardly in the spirit in which you started this thread.

Ok. If you want to take your marbles and go play somewhere else. Fine. But remember, this is a public forum, with many views, some of them which you may not agree with (I noticed you did the gracious thing and ignored my comments! )

If you only want to be here to have others agree with you, then that is another matter, and if so, that is not a discussion, but something else entirely.

I think they call that grandstanding.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grandstanding

And as such, it doesn't make for great conversation. Why do I know all about such a matter? Because I have an ego just like everyone else and can be prone to just such a stance.

Big deal!

How about let's try to get along rather than take offense so easily.