How does one begin to include everyone?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

Dear Daniel: While I most often agree with you, this is a place I don't.

As a rule, I don't believe in reverse racism, because my definition of racism has a power component to it. I have a friend who actually was a victim of reverse racism in that he happened to hear a black professor (clearly a person in power in terms of a student) say that he automatically gave his white students lower grades. That was the first time, I was able to acknowledge that racism might be a reverse situation. But for the most part, since blacks in this country have very limited power, I don't believe it applies except in perhaps a 5-10% specific situation.

Now I would call what happened to your husband bigotry. And clearly bigotry runs the gamut. I'm a bit bigoted towards rich people, coming out of a working class background. It takes a lot for me to warm up to people with a lot of money. Since I have no power, I wouldn't call it classism, but I would acknowledge it as bigotry. Can you see the fine line there?

This thread gets more and more interesting as we progress. I always find these discussions around privelege fascinating. Kara

I'm not sure believing in reverse racism is the point here. It's not like I have brought a theoretical matter to the discussion: I'm talking about a real event. The actuality of the situation, as I see it, speaks for itself. You may call it bigotry, but the reality of the situation was something else entirely.

How was race NOT involved? That's the question I have asked myself. It was not simply a matter of homophobia. It was, in fact, the reaction of a few who saw my husband as the WHITE MAN. A stand-in for all the former crimes of all white people.

Isn't bigotry the when a person holds a view about a subject or persons despite evidence to the contrary? And what is racism? A reaction against, or a fear or hatred of a class of persons because of their physical characteristics? In this case, my husband's very whiteness. Truth is: a few in this congregation wanted a black organist. But guess what? They couldn't find one. So what did they do? They took their prejudices out on my husband. Instead of working to support and foster members of their own race to serve them, they instead chose to take their frustration out on the one white man who would. And he wasn't the first white person that was attacked either- this church has a long history of a revolving door as far as their musician's were concerned.

There was definitely a 'power' component involved. A small faction made life hell for my husband. Did they prevail? No. But did others in the church stand up for my guy? Hardly. In the end, he had to defend himself- no one really stood up for him. He was the one who had to take the bull by the horns. The leadership didn't want to deal with the issue until pushed to do so: I call that passive racism.

If it looks like race, smells like race, and acts like the race card is being played- I say that is it race and not merely a fit of bigotry.

And again- and mentioned in my former post- this is something as liberals we are not supposed to talk about or address. There is a view which supposes that blacks, because they historically have not had power, cannot be racist. Well. That simply isn't so. Not from what I have seen.

It may not be polite to point this out. But it is true nevertheless.

Kara- we don't have to agree about this, but living through the experience of what unfolded went waaaaay beyong bigotry. My man had to defend himself in front of the vestry because of the animus of two members of his choir. He prevailed against them and their groupies, and then started looking for another position, eventually finding one in a predominately black congregation which is pastored by a white gay man who serves at the altar with his partner.

It's the first place in a long string of places where he now feels welcomed. And is indeed welcomed.

[nmwolfboy]

Oi, Kara & Daniel, your exchanges poke at my sore spots. But the discussion is important, though perhaps veering a bit off topic in this particular thread.

My life has included some opportunities & experiences relating to race that i find alot of other Anglos (i live in New Mexico - we're Anglos here, not whites) have not had. From reading Kara's posts over the past couple of years, i believe Kara has had similar opportunities and experiences, and that has yielded the perspective from which she speaks.

Daniel, i read what you've written about your husband's experience at that particular church, and i'm saddened by what he encountered there. How wonderful that he was able to weather it so well, and subsequently has found a place where he is genuinely welcomed.

i really liked the phase "uncooked stuff" that Daniel used up-thread. When discussing racism, heterosexism, straight/white privilege, misogyny, etc., a phrase like that communicates something that other, "ism & schism" loaded words are not able to. What i call racism may differ from what Daniel means when he uses the word. Or when Kara uses the word. We may use different words to talk about the same things. We all season our 'uncooked stuff' a little differently.

What's likely really important is that we have the discussion, in a genuine way. That's what i think has been missing for so long in American discourse, especially in regard to racism, but also with respect to misogyny. And faith/religion.

i admit i initially reacted defensively to the up-thread use of the term "reverse racism". Not because is doesn't exist, because the phenomenon it's supposed to describe does, though i agree with Kara that its actual occurrence is rare, especially in comparison with how often i've heard the phrase bandied about in my life. No, i reacted badly to that phrase's use because in my lived experience, i've heard that particular phrase used way more often to justify bigotry on the part of another Anglo than i've heard it to describe the kind of phenomenon that Daniel's husband experienced.

this is something as liberals we are not supposed to talk about or address. There is a view which supposes that blacks, because they historically have not had power, cannot be racist. Well. That simply isn't so. Not from what I have seen.

It may not be polite to point this out. But it is true nevertheless.

i'm glad you brought this up, Daniel. i've heard it many times before, from people regardless of their race. For me, the idea that people of color cannot be racist is an idea that presupposes that everyone understands we're talking about institutional racism. In that sense, it's mostly true that in the USA, people of color cannot be racist. Certainly not historically, and not to the extent that Anglos have been and continue to be agents of racism. People of color have not been in positions of power over banks, schools, churches, or other institutions that are supposed to serve the common weal.

Where people of color have created their own versions of these institutions, (like lgbt people created MCCs) it is not uncommon to see the same paradigm of bigotry reflected from the power-dominant group. We humans do seem to like our hierarchies, and those only seem to work when we have an easily identifiable scapegoat upon which to project our angst. Sometimes our projections are based on race, sometimes on gender, sometimes on class, affectional persuasion, ability/disability, etc.

Daniel, i think what your husband experienced meets the definition of racism, pure and simple. Just because outside of those particular church doors, both the actively and passively bigoted church members don't qualify as 'opressors' in the larger picture of American society's continuing racism, certainly doesn't excuse their actions. I think that larger reality makes their unfair projection onto your man potentially more understandable, but not excusable. Call it what it was - racism on the part of the power structure of that particular institution. To my ears, using the phrase 'reverse racism' most often has the effect of continuing the splintering of our shared experience. It so often (again maybe just to my ears) underscores the us vs. them, eye for an eye kind of hogwash that gets us all nowhere.

i don't think i have any conclusion or clear point for this post. i just had to add my $0.02.

Pax,
scott

[FatherAlbert]

My dear Alecto,

You have truly saved me from despairing about my seemingly lack of understanding or empathy for the need for the GLBT community to find a haven, a safe place to be. My anger is directed against those who discriminate on any level. As I have previously stated, I am still a "Don Quixote" after all these years. Yes, I am the cock-eyed optimist who really , really believes that one person can begin the changes process.

Kara, I understand now what I can never truly or completely understand that it means to be GLBT. However, I can empathize with those who are. Many of my friends are gay and/or transgendered because they are good people, thoughtful people, and people who celebrate their differences as part of their wholeness. Yes, I know now that I am privileged as a member of that "white, male, heterosexual group. I've just never felt that privilege because of the way I've been treated by that grouping. So, now I can move one and do what you suggested: keep working on the heterosexual population, as well as addressing the powerful and entitled male population. I have all the documentation and the information and the resources to address both of those groups. And I have been for many more years than I care to recall!

A miracle has happened. Yesterday while I was feeling really down by the way people perceived me (arrogant, pontificating, etc.). However, I know who I am and am most comfortable in my skin. I have changed myself to be the person I now embrace and accept. It has only taken more than fifty years for me to begin liking myself. That small part of being GLBT (learning to like and accept oneself as God me you) I fully understand. All the other ramifications of being anathema to the vast majority of humanity, I can only empathize with. Anyway, yesterday I received in the mail, a newsletter announcing the National Conference of Call to Action which is taking place in Milwaukee November 7-9. One of the seminars is entitled: Next Steps: Developing Catholic Lesbian/Gay Ministry Programs led by Jeannine Gramick and Frank DeBernardo. Please indulge my quoting the essence of the seminar as proposed: "How can Catholic communities respond to the gifts, needs, and life experiences of l/g people and their families? How can we build bridges to those who feel alienated and ostracized because of sexual orientation? Presentations, personal reflection, dialogue, and planning exercises are used to teach us that l/g ministry is not 'one size fits all,' but calls us to make ministry choices for our setting. A Loretto Sister, Gramick co-founded New Ways Ministry in 1977, and despite a recent Vatican ban, continues pastoral work with l/g persons. DeBernardo is Director of New Ways since 1996, conducts programs nationally, keynoted the religion-homosexuality conference at the first World Pride celebration in Rome in 2000." I have never heard of Call to Action before this piece of mail arrived. I shall try to attend even though I am like Kara and so many others of us not financially solvent. Yes, Kara, living in Naples has required a great deal of effort on my part not to be constantly angry at the great wealth here. This is where Mr. Bush spent time on Friday raising money for two brother representatives who are running for re-election serving Miami and part of Collier county (not ours, thank God!) I'm learning to accept the fact that power and wealth lead to more power and wealth and that the rest of us feed into that power and wealth by the choices we make. I try to use humor to repress the anger (and refrain from judgment) that I feel. One of my favorite jokes is that the very wealthy suffer from rich people's disease: short arms and deep pockets. I need to learn to really love them as much as I do all the rest of us. But that is my cross. And I'll long remember your lesson, Kara. The only one you can change is yourself. Do you know how difficult that lesson is for "Don Quixote?"

For now, I leave you with all love and blessings of the Christ I try to serve.

Albert

[andrewlittle]

... for now, I will sy one thing and then nurse my aching head.

This conversation - with its twists and turns, with its disagreements and the ways it has highlighted the limitations of languages, with the frustrations that have been obviously raised in some of those participating - this conversation has enriched me greatly. It has called me to think, rethink and reflect on things I hold dear and thought I knew. I, for one, really like it when that happens.

Thank you Fr Albert, Kara, Daniel, Alecto, et al for the privilege of engaging with you - this is the stuff of growth.

[kara speltz]

Dearest Friends: What an amazing thread this is! So much "uncooked stuff," as Daniel calls it. And so much real soul searching for answers, that I got more from reading the responses this morning than I got at Mass!!!!

Albert, I was blown away by your response. Thank you. I suspect Alecto was the stepping stone, when he acknowledged what we all felt but failed to express. No one here thought you were coming from an insincere place. We just failed to acknowledge that and for that I'm deeply sorry.

It's truly amazing what happens when we first validate each other before we digress into where we disagree. I somehow need to keep relearning that, unfortunately.

I'm so grateful for these forums and these in depth discussions that challenge us all to move out of our comfort zones and embrace the "illusional" other.

Kara

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

Dearest Friends: What an amazing thread this is! So much "uncooked stuff," as Daniel calls it. And so much real soul searching for answers, that I got more from reading the responses this morning than I got at Mass!!!!

Albert, I was blown away by your response. Thank you. I suspect Alecto was the stepping stone, when he acknowledged what we all felt but failed to express. No one here thought you were coming from an insincere place. We just failed to acknowledge that and for that I'm deeply sorry.

It's truly amazing what happens when we first validate each other before we digress into where we disagree. I somehow need to keep relearning that, unfortunately.

I'm so grateful for these forums and these in depth discussions that challenge us all to move out of our comfort zones and embrace the "illusional" other.

Kara

But don't know it?

Kara- I adore you. Thank you Wolfboy for putting matters into perpective. And Alecto for your introducting the matter of semantics and making me think about the matter, even though we may not eye see eye to eye. And thank you Fr. Albert for getting this conversation going- though I must ask your pardon for taking the theme somewhat astray. And Andy- like I've said to you before: I want you with me in a dark alley!


Fr. Albert- Like Kara, I was blown away by your response. Your taking action- in whatever way you can- well- what can I say? That's the whole point of this forum. You really are among friends. No doubt about that. Looking forward to more discussions.

Re "uncooked stuff". I must give credit where credit is due. I think the phrase came from the woman who was a counselor to me and who taught me to meditate many years ago. Ginger Grancagnolo. Great person with soul, warmth and Presence.

[FatherAlbert]

To all who have contributed to this thread whether by responding or just by reading:

The Spirit will lead us home! Such joy in my heart at the deep feeling that I have found a safe place where I can be who I am! Praise God; thank you, Jesus!

I want everyone to know that because I am a priest in a very small independent Catholic post-denomination fellowship (that's a mouthful!, I am very isolated. I don't have a church, I don't receive compensation for my services (both as a UCC priest and a Benedictine who has taken a vow of poverty, I am an outsider wherever I go. And that's OK most of the time. However, sometimes I become very lonely because I want so much to celebrate the Eucharist with my Episcopalian brother and sisters or with any group that is "catholic." This is not the thread to discuss catholicism except to maybe explain that we believe in the Triune God, the seven sacraments which are more than symbols, and the real presence of Jesus Christ in the bread and wine of the Eucharist. That's where our catholicism begins and ends. All are welcome at the table; I never even say before Communion that all baptized Christians are welcome. Anyone who feels the need or desire to communicate is fully welcomed. You all do understand that if I were to advertise in a newspaper my home Eucharistic service as The Catholic Community of the Good Shepherd, the Roman Catholic archdiocese of Southwest Florida would haul me into court for using the word "Catholic" in the name of my church community. It has already happened in other places; the one I am familiar with is Miami. The Roman Catholic church believes that it only has the right to use the word "Catholic." I so admire Kara who like my hero, Joan Chittester, stays with a church whose politics is so unchristian (that's my opinion, folks.)

Because of this thread and my feeling safe here, I am going to call my friends, Doug and Frank, and discuss the MCC Naples experience I had. I was asked what was negative about my attendance at that one service. I'll try to explain my personal reaction as someone who has become a senior citizen and is still as naïve as a babe in the woods. The pastor gave a wonderful homily (sermon) about giving: giving of oneself, giving to each other, and giving the church a chance to grow by publicizing and talking about their wonderful inclusive community. The pastor is a gifted preacher and teacher. After the service I spoke with him, explained who I was and what I was about and told him that I would like to share some ideas about growing the church. I sent an email two weeks ago about meeting and getting to know one another. I also told him that I could be a good support because I am not allowed to take any monies for the services I offer. I was thinking that I might be invited to celebrate the Eucharistic liturgy when the pastor was ways or need a break or whatever. I have presided at liturgy at Integrity meetings and was warmly received, especially by Doug and Frank. We have a really good rapport and have provided me with moral support since my first meeting with Integrity. Remember, I am not an Episcopalian so technically I cannot be a member of Integrity.

I guess that's a real sore spot for me: being an outsider and very isolated from my UCC clergy brothers and sisters. We meet only once a year and have contact through our emails and telephone calls. Our presiding bishop is a wonderful woman who fully understands me and my problems with always being a fifth wheel wherever I go. She reassures me that we are the advance guard, preparing the way and serving in whatever capacity we can in whatever faith community will accept our services.

Because of my passion and enthusiasm for my calling to serve, I do become discouraged at the many closed doors I try unsuccessfully to pry open. Remember, I am a newly ordained priest (two years) and come to priesthood through a near death experience after surgery six years ago this July 20. My experience with Jesus was one that transcends any human experience anyone can ever imagine. And so at the age of 64 I began the calling that has been stalking me since I was seven years old.

I go on, but at least I'm in the "faith" area, am I not? As long as I have found a home, a safe place to be who I am and remain among friends whom I need to teach me and love me with that love that Jesus commands of us, I will continue my journey with a smile on my face and sunrise and love in my heart at sunset.

P.S. Daniel- I too meditate; I follow the way of centering prayer which is very much like meditation in the Buddhist tradition and other traditions of the East. Morning and night I spend twenty minutes centering. Without that special time with God, I would not be able to be the optimist, the "Don Quixote" that I have learned to accept about myself.

All love and blessings, my friends. Let the discussion continue! May Love rule the world through our influence on all the naysayers.

Albert

[nmwolfboy]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Re "uncooked stuff". I must give credit where credit is due. I think the phrase came from the woman who was a counselor to me and who taught me to meditate many years ago. Ginger Grancagnolo. Great person with soul, warmth and Presence.

Ah, but it was you who introduced the phrase to me. Thank you.

Fr. Albert, by starting this thread and continuing your participation here you help to renew my hope that the Kingdom/Queendom of God is always at hand!

Everyone else, this thread is amazing. There's no way i can adequately express how much the SF forum participants challenge me to grow in unexpected ways.

Pax,
scott

[kara speltz]

Dear Albert: I'm sure you're going to enjoy the Call to Action gathering. They are an amazingly open group of people. I've only personally attended one of their conferences, but it was awesome.

As for New Ways, while they do excellent work, I'm saddened that they continue to refuse to expand their ministry to bisexual and transgender people. I've spoken with Jeanine Grammick about this and her response was that it wasn't in their mission statement. I spoke at the New Ways conference pleading with them to recognize that it was transgenders who first fought at Stonewall and the need to expand their understanding.

In terms of the MCC pastor who was so ungracious, I'd suggest checking out a couple others to see if there is a pastor who might truly be grateful for your assistance. As I said, MCC's are very different from place to place.

I stay in the RC, because of my own parish, which is absolutely phenominal. I have been involved in ministry in this parish for over 20 years. We've celebrated a Gay Pride Mass every June for the last 11 years.

The bishop of our diocese, is not happy with us, and pointedly said to me that our parish had made a huge mistake in including bisexual and transgender people, continuing "we will never accept them."

I tried to help him understand, by reminding him of the early civil rights work within the Catholic Church and the Catholic Interracial Conferences. We white folks were only comfortable with those blacks who had fully assimilated into our culture. But ultimately we had to recognize that our discomfort was our problem, not someone elses.

I explained to him that 10 years ago, I also was uncomfortable around Ts and that I had to consciously work on that. I'm sure it had no effect on him, but I will keep trying.

You are not alone. Somewhere you will find a place for ministry, probably when you least expect it. Our God is a God of surprises, trust Her.

Kara

[Daniel]

It is good to hear more of your journey- thank you.

I am sorry to hear that you were not fully welcomed at MCC, that is, as you wanted to be. As as Kara has noted, I would seek out other places- surely you will find your niche- or it will find you.

What you bring up, without exactly stating it, I believe, is the problems encountered when lineage, power, validation and recognition become involved.

We do live in a world that relies heavily on outside sources for recognition. We seek it, and demand it of others. In my own field, it is not enough- as it was when I was in graduate school- to have a Master's degree to teach college. Now- one must have a doctorate. Thus- I have seen the ramping up of requirments and such. Ultimately, it is somewhat life-draining to jump through so many hoops. It can become more about jumping through them than anything else.

I don't know if the recognition of your status as a priest has been an issue for others, but I can imagine it being so, especially in the mainline church community. You say yourself that you are not able to take communion at various places.

Perhaps I don't understand the dynamics involved, but that seems a very strange thing: all the Episcopal churches I have attended and sung in the last 15 years or so haven't make this an issue. But then, I do not wear a collar as you do, which implies something altogether different.

Outsider Status. That is what I hear you invoking and talking about. And those of us here can identify with that. That is part and parcel of the experience of being GLBT. It becomes more intense in communities of faith, especially those which are conservative.

Centering Prayer: my sense is that we speak the same language, though the outward form may seem different. Inwardly, we are journeying that same road- going within using the same means that all who succeed in doing so do- through attention to simple things like breath and the heart.

How does one include everyone? (the title of this thread!) I would say by the very means you are using. That is, by keeping your heart open and 'centered'.

May you have much peace.

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by FatherAlbert

To all who have contributed to this thread whether by responding or just by reading:

The Spirit will lead us home! Such joy in my heart at the deep feeling that I have found a safe place where I can be who I am! Praise God; thank you, Jesus!

Amen and Amen, Fr Albert.

I want everyone to know that because I am a priest in a very small independent Catholic post-denomination fellowship (that's a mouthful!, I am very isolated. I don't have a church, I don't receive compensation for my services (both as a UCC priest and a Benedictine who has taken a vow of poverty, I am an outsider wherever I go. And that's OK most of the time. However, sometimes I become very lonely because I want so much to celebrate the Eucharist with my Episcopalian brother and sisters or with any group that is "catholic." ...

You share a great deal with my wife, Jenna. I won't tell her story, since it is hers, but I will say that she is truly a pastor at heart, has been rejected by the UMC because of her feminist and LGBT advocacy, and feels at sea, lonely and an outsider when it comes to living into the call God has placed on her life. She will be being ordained into a Methodist "movement" in the near future - a movement that sounds remarkably like a protestant version of your UCC.

Because I care so deeply for Jenna and how she feels as a minister without a church, I can also care deeply for you. Just as I trust that God's call on Jenna leads her to being the pastor God intends, even without a church, I trust the same for you - you are a pastor and you are doing God's will and work.

I pray that you will find the community that is such an important part of the church in the world. In the meantime, and even after you have found it, I think you ca rely on us here to be your virtual community. It may not be as physical, but from my experience I will tell you that it is powerful.

Because of this thread and my feeling safe here ...

Once more - Amen and Amen.

I guess that's a real sore spot for me: being an outsider and very isolated from my UCC clergy brothers and sisters. We meet only once a year and have contact through our emails and telephone calls. Our presiding bishop is a wonderful woman who fully understands me and my problems with always being a fifth wheel wherever I go. She reassures me that we are the advance guard, preparing the way and serving in whatever capacity we can in whatever faith community will accept our services.

Because of my passion and enthusiasm for my calling to serve, I do become discouraged at the many closed doors I try unsuccessfully to pry open. Remember, I am a newly ordained priest (two years) and come to priesthood through a near death experience after surgery six years ago this July 20. My experience with Jesus was one that transcends any human experience anyone can ever imagine. And so at the age of 64 I began the calling that has been stalking me since I was seven years old.

And through your courage to self-disclose, I find yet more affinity with you.

I was ordained in November in the PC(USA). My "near death" experience was a failed suicide 12 years ago, after which God changed my life completely. I entered seminary at 47, and graduated at 52.

"Prying doors open" adequately describes why I chose to remain in the PC(USA) as opposed to going with a more open and affirming denomination. It is difficult and discouraging at times, but then I don't have to pry the doors just to be accepted myself. It has to be just that much more difficult in your situation. I will keep you in my prayers, Fr Albert.

I go on, but at least I'm in the "faith" area, am I not? As long as I have found a home, a safe place to be who I am and remain among friends whom I need to teach me and love me with that love that Jesus commands of us, I will continue my journey with a smile on my face and sunrise and love in my heart at sunset.

Many of us here "go on" - it how we process and learn and grow. Pray do "go on". "Home", "safe place" and "friends" are words that describe this place for me - I hope they become even more descriptive of your experience here.

We sometimes disagee - actually, we many times try to disagree since it gives us fodder for growth - but generally we try to do it lovingly. We fail that test, occasionally, and usually ask forgiveness, offer the olive branch and kiss and make up. It's just like family in a lot of ways, complete with the occasional dysfunction.

Welcome to the family, Fr Albert. Can I consider you my brother?

As to your initial question on this thread, like others have said, it happens slowly with efforts just like this. We may chomp at the bit for instant change - and rightly so - but every journey is made up of those small, single steps towards what ought to be. If we can accompnay ech other on the journey, then so much the better - but we always go hand in hand with God.

So, Don Quixote, keep striving against those windmills. Some may think you're just crazy, but the world never changes except by the efforts of those willing to look a little off. Praise God - we have found each other on the journey.

[BishopIoan]

I really don't see angry people on this thread, just people who know what it is like to be queer in America. We were pointing out that heterosexual privilege is implied and you are so used to it that you don't notice it.

A little experiment might be enlightening. See if a male friend will pretend to be gay...nothing much--just holding hands in public. I guarantee you that you will be made aware that until now you hae been living under the assumption that everyone is heterosexual and the privilege which flows from that assumption.

[FatherAlbert]

Each and every one of us who is born into this world is unique with unique experiences in life. Then there is the layer of perception added to the uniqueness of the individual and the uniqueness of the perceptions (interpretation, if you will). I need to be somewhat abstract in my response because of the privacy issues around what I am about to reveal.

My best friend is a gay man who is leading a heterosexual life and has been for 38 years. I never hesitate to take his hand or to embrace him in public places; and yes, people do look askance and make those faces they do and those comments that are hurtful. So what! I truly understand the privileges I have as a heterosexual white male. However, I also feel deeply the hurt and sorrow of my friend who live a life unfulfilled by choice.

The reason I am here in this discussion is to learn- to learn how to make life better for my friend and for all my brothers and sisters. I spend hours and hours with my friend as he unburdens himself of his guilt at living a lie in order to conform to the particular religious institution to which his wife is committed. I do no want to say too much other than to establish myself as an advocate for all who deal with their sexual orientation or their sexual identity in a hostile environment every day. I constantly affirm my friend's feelings when he tells me that even after all these years he is physically attracted to men. I can only tell him that what does he expect to feel: he is a gay man. All the praying in the world to that strange God that he follows is not going to change who he is or who I am. I love him deeply and tell him constantly that he is the best person I have ever known. Do I feel pain and anguish for him and all the brothers and sisters who find themselves in that position? I hope you know the answer to that question.

To all those who have given me support and hope to continue this discussion around "faith and non-violence" I thank you and bless you for helping my journey to continue. To Andrew and Daniel and Kara- please continue to guide me and to encourage me. I have shared only a small portion of my story and what makes my calling to serve so difficult at times. I must tell you that your prayers and good thoughts have lifted me up tremendously. I once again know that Jesus is holding my hand and sometimes carrying me along when the going gets too rough. I am out of the dark place that wants to gobble me up and separate from the God Who is always present. She never leaves me; it is I who abandon Her.

I've spent two days reading a book called "The Shack" by William P. Young.
My friend and his wife gave it to me for my birthday. He read it and assured me that it would be reaffirming of so many of the things about faith and God that I have been telling him for the past seven years. Well, I read the entire book in two days: I laughed, I wept, I smiled, I went through the entire gamut of human emotions. I was emptied and then filled up. I think that many in this thread will enjoy and also revel in the depth that this book brings to our belief system and helt us to change the way we think of God. I'll share one piece with you: in the book the God whom the main character encounters is an Afro-American woman! That should pique your curiosity. The book is categorized as a novel, but is much more than that. It's an allegory or extended parable or something much more than just a novel.

I've got so much to catch up on now that I've spent two days digesting this wonderful book! I'll not forget to post when I come up with other thoughts or suggestions to consider along our way back to wherever we came from! I have been to that place, if only for seconds; and believe me, it's great and awesome and more than we can imagine. You'll find some of that in the book, too!

Love and all blessings to my brothers and sisters whoever you are, wherever you are.
Albert

P.S. I would love us to share things we read what enhance our understanding and encourage us to make change without violence. I especially would like to do more reading in Eastern thought; my knowledge is limited mostly to the Buddhist tradition.

[Daniel]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/24/bo...yt&oref=slogin


Fr. Albert- you might find the link above interesting reading- a recent article on the book you just read. It's a surprise best-seller. And interestingly, some conservatives aren't too happy with the character of God, but we knew that already, didn't we?

It' saddends me to know that your close friend has been closeted for a very long time. My own sense of things, or rather my observation in this kind of situation, tells me that there is very little that you can do for your friend other than what you are doing already: being a good friend. Being in the closest as long as he has- makng the compromised he has made- is not something that is easily changed. Yes- I am sure he is unhappy in a very deep way- regardless of his love for his wife: sexual fulfillment in relationship is a need, just like food, and the man has been starving himself as well as his wife - it should be noted. Part of him is 'not present'- I would think. He has desires which go unfulfilled and realized. The result? I can imagine introversion and depression.

I think several things keep your friend in the situation he is in: habit (easier to keep doing what one is doing); theological and spiritual ignorance (he may not experience himself -as yet- as a having desires that are holy and good); community pressure- the longer one waits to come out the harder it can become- especially if one is invested in a conservative community of faith. Coming out in those circumstance often means loosing everything. And for a man well past his 50's, this can be devestating. It's not like one is 30 and can easily fit into the stream where finding another man to love is an easy matter. One can feel as though one's options are narrower as one ages.

Now I broach a very senstive matter Father. Do you have same-sex feelings yourself? And are you attracted to his man?

(I am not known for holding back!)

If so, then this complicates the matter considerably. Not only for you, but for him.

Some things must be said so that they can be dealt with- that is- if one wants to live a life unburdened by one's own oppression, much less the oppressive thoughts of others. One must first deal with one's own thoughts before that of others.

Ok. I could be barking up the wrong tree. Please feel free to bark back!

The clue:

All the praying in the world to that strange God that he follows is not going to change who he is or who I am.

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Daniel,

I'm so pleased that you feel free enough to ask what you believe is a sensitive question. No, I don't have sexual feelings or an attraction to D-, but I am as some of you have already guessed and sort of said I am an odd duck. I not a very sexual person; I never have been. I've been sexually intimate with only one woman, my wife. We had a very fulfilling sexual relationship when we were younger. Now we are both celibate by choice, still enjoying the intimacy that a committed relationship brings.

My friend D- is not attracted to me in a sexual way. We do share all our thoughts and feelings and I make every attempt to convince him that he is turning from God by denying the person who he is. He is also not being fair to his wife who has forsaken a sexual relationship for these many years. I'm not saying that in earlier days there wasn't a sexual relationship outside the marriage on both parts. However, D-'s wife has found a congregation which is locked into a very literal sense of the Scripture. She feels it is a way to keep D- from straying. D- and I have discussed this openly. He feels that now as a senior citizen his sex drive is waning and that he will less and less have those yearnings for an authentic and complete relationship with another man.

This is very difficult for me because I truly love D-. I love his openness with me, his support of myself and my wife emotionally; his goodness and his acceptance of all the differences in people that I accept. He is in a very dark place much of the time because both my wife and I love D- as he is and are pained that he has spent a lifetime trying to be happy and closeted at the same time. It doesn't work.

I have been queer all my life in a different way. I never fit into any of the categories that the ordinary folk seemed to find fulfilling. I have a passion for good music and became an accomplished pianist. I love art and have done some very good oils over the years. I write poetry. I love dance and theatre. Maybe that is why I connect so easily to the GLBT community and why we have so many friends that are wired that way. Giftedness in the arts seems to be very much connected with sexual orientation. I have come to accept myself as God made me, an oddball and a little (a lot!) off the path that most people follow.

It took a long time and years of strategizing around my deep depression and finally a breakdown which sent me into years of psychotherapy. The Spirit led me to good people for therapy who helped me to like myself as I am and to teach me that performance and accomplishment have nothing to do with who a person is. (I'm ashamed to say that I have a bachelor's, three master's, and a doctoral degree.) After many years I realized that I was trying to gain my mother's love through academic accomplishments which she valued highly, or, at least, to get her to say aloud the words, "I love you." When she became a victim of Alzheimer's, I had to deal with that lost opportunity. Instead, I came to realize that each one of us does her/his best in our role as parent, child, friend, etc. That's all we can expect. My world opened up and I developed a much deeper relationship with the God Whom I love. And I know(with a lot of help from my partner, my wife) that my mother loved me very much. Funny how she could tell her daughter-in-law but not her son.

Yes, Daniel, "The Shack" is a book that forces one to think on a totally different plane. It is definitely theologically challenging. I must tell you that I love John Shelby Spong and am always open to question traditional belief. The time has come in the process of human evolution to re-evaluate and re-think much of what we learned was absolute truth. Thank you for reminding me that there are lots of people who still are in that locked box where they are not allowed to question, and if they do, they are mocked, excommunicated, or even in the case of one, Jesus, crucified for daring to question the prevailing thought of the day.

I hope that I am not baring too much and that I'm not boring the members of our thread with useless information. But, again, that's me. What you see is what you get-- no apologies.

Love and blessings to all my brother and sisters. Let's continue to open the doors and windows and let the fresh air in! How good God is!

Albert

[Daniel]

You answered my second question and skipped over the first, which was, do you have same-sex feelings? Perhaps I should have asked "Have you ever had same-sex feelings for other men- any man?"

I understand all about being a queer duck as well as your interest in the arts. I have those interests as well which gives one something of an 'outsider' status. Being gay only ups the ante.

This queer duck wanted to be a classical dancer as a child. Then an artist as well as a superhero. Actually I should amend that statement: at the age of 8 or 9 I found myself quite attracted to Aquaman- the cartoon- that is. Many an early Saturday morning with my head pressed inched away from the TV set with the sound turned waaaay down so I didn't get 'caught'. Even then, without being told, I knew that my feelings for that blond hunk man on the screen- the image of which made my feel like a vibrating tuning fork- were verboten.

I don't doubt a word of your statement, but you do seem rather shy in the self-disclosure department, which, I have to say, is actually Ok. You can say- or not say- whatever you want. That said- you will find me a open book. I think it's a better way to live- and love.

Pardon the interest. but I do have a curious mind. You can answer as you choose to.

Namaste,

Daniel

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Daniel,

Yea, I'm a skipper! Not intentionally; it's just a function of getting older. I don't think that I have ever had same-sex feelings. I guess that sounds stupid; but I was so repressed as a child that anything might have been possible. I do know that in the Army men were attracted to me sexually. A good friend in my barracks told me to watch out because there were some aggressive guys in our holding company that might come on strong. I was somewhat effeminate and "soft". I had been often labeled a "fairy" or queer boy" in adolescence. However, I was never physically aroused by another male and was very much aroused by females. Since I was a virgin until I married at age 30, I guess that maybe I fall in some other category if one exists. The whole idea of physical intimacy was difficult for me to deal with until I met and fell in love with my wife. I had no problem with any sexual activity with her and we were extremely active during our first years of marriage. I guess all the repression on both our parts opened up a dam when we finally connected. I find this discussion a little embarassing even now. I need to tell you all that I still have difficulty displaying affection in public and am scandalized by anything that resembles real sensuality in public, whether hetero- or homo-sexual. Holding hands and a peck on the cheek are fine but when I see groping and French kissing in a public place I get a little crazy. Guilt and repression are part of my Roman Catholic and Anglo background. I realize that and try to be a little less reactionary these days when everything is much more open.

I hope that helps to answer your question. If not, do keep prodding me. I'll get there yet. I kind of think that sexuality is a very complex part of human beings. And feeling good about one's sexual orientation and identity are absolutely critical to living a satisfying and fulfilled life. About that I do feel good. As I have said before (I think) it has taken me a long, long time to learn to love myself and to accept God's unconditional love for me just as I am. I have many qualities and strengths that traditionally are reserved for females in this culture. I now embrace that side of me and actually appreciate those virtues. Compassion, empathy, intuition, psychic ability are some of the qualities that are mine. I am not tough and find it impossible to keep a stiff upper lip when I feel that shedding tears is what I need to do.

Love and blessings
Albert

[Daniel]

Those of us- myself included- who grew up (I as an adolescent) in Fundamentalist or Conservative circles- can identify with your statement about not having much feelings in the sexuality department one way or another until later in life.

Case in point: the story I told about my childhood was somthing that I remembered after I came out at the age of 28. Between 8 and 28 I was one closted fellow- to myself and others. And I feel compassion for that young man. I could have been dating men my age in my 20's. As it is, men are now marrying one another in their 20's- something inconceivable before the last few years.

Not letting love into one's life- I believe- takes a massive toll on one's psychology- and even- in some cases- one's health. The energy wants to go somewhere after all. And if it is pushed down and out of sight....well...very often there is hell to pay.

I am glad that you have had love in your life. That's a wonderful thing. Know what? My sense is that you have what gay men have been noted as having (which has been substantiated via recent research), that is to say-a female brain.

Intuition. Empathy. Psychic abilty. All thing associated with the right hemisphere. In other words, not logic oriented- left dominant ie your typical straight man who falls asleep at the Ballet!

Would not surprise me to learn that you are left-handed too. Goes with the territory.

Ineresting stuff.

[FatherAlbert]

Thanks, Daniel,

You have described in few words who I am. I am not logic-oriented at all. That also makes me very vulnerable, at some times naïve. How intuitive you are! I am left-handed, completely left-handed. As a child in kindergarten and first grade, I was punished by my teachers, especially in first-grade by Miss Raschdorf who hit me knuckles with her ruler and switched the pencil into my right hand, like I was doing something really bad or "sinister". I'd check to see where she was in the classroom and immediately switch back to my left hand. What a bitch! Lord, forgive her for she knew not what damage she might have caused if I hadn't been stronger than her! In those days, the '40's, being left-handed was thought to be a handicap. Wow, you brought up a lot of feelings I thought had been long buried. Good job!

Keep up the wonderful communication, all my friends out there. By the way, tomorrow is my birthday. I'll be 66 on 6-26. Is there a mark of the devil somewhere in that combination!! Who thought I'd ever live to be that old! Not me, for sure!

Love and blessings,
Albert

[Daniel]

I think I should get a prize or something! Tupperware perhaps?

Happy Impending Birthday! Tomorrow that is! I have my own coming up on July 11th. The Big 50! Celebrating Big Time. Hope you have a great time!

You know, while it sounds like we share a good many things- I am left-handed as well- my husband- while a musician- has a male brain if there every was one and is very much right-handed. Logical logcial logical. Oh...the 'gay brain' (as I call it) sneaks out here and there, but the man thinks like a straight man.

Pray for me!

Seriously. I understand the whole 'teacher trying to change one's handedness' thing. Went through that myself. In my case, I was one stubborn little boy. No one was gonna tell me how to use my hand (no cracks from you Steve!). Lucky for me: those were the early years (60's) when teachers started to let students decide for themselves. That said, my teacher encouraged me to use the right. I refused!

I'm not sure that being left-brained makes one naive or vulnerable. Would we use those words to describe the majority of women, who, naturally, have more right-brain use than men? Of course not. Your feelings, if I may posit so, may arise from the circumstances of your life and your upbringing- or lack of it.

That said- those who are overly right-brain oriented can be 'out there', 'spacey' and 'not grounded'. I know that score. Played it for many years- and still work at 'being here now'.

That's why I exercise (go to the gym and weight train) and practice yoga. Gets me into my body and out of my head. You know the logic left-brained folks have the same issue often. They are in their 'heads' but on the other side. Into detail et al. Workaholics etc. They need to feel their bodies too. 'Get grounded' - as they say in human development language.