My thoughts about the day at NCU...

[pixeltarian]

So in the visit today, I felt a lot of negativity towards me from soulforce. the issues I brought up were not even homosexuality, but the way they chose to protest. I felt that blocking the doors and not letting us move freely was not in alignment with a 'turn the other cheek' mentality. Soulforce seemed to have the idea that their actions were justified because NCU did not let them in the building. It seemed to me like a sort of passive aggressive revenge masked in "making a statement" or "raising awareness" or "showing the students what's happening." But the attitude of many members of soulforce was most apparent to me: they seemed hurt, and running under the assumption that I had bad intentions.

In following a movement, there is no way to know if some emotional hole or injustice will be soothed upon completion of a set of objectives. a fight will not heal pain. I've heard from many in soulforce about the pain and discrimination they've endured. I skipped all my classes and spent my whole day just taking to many people. Gathering ideas and opinions and trying to grasp what was going on. I love everyone regardless of sexual orientation. So that's not the issue. I was told that I don't know what it's like to struggle with something for 10 years. Well I have and it still is a struggle, but I don't equate my nature to who I am. because our nature is sinful. When Christ enters in, He is entering a territory that is full of sin. For me to say that God accepts who I am, including my sinful desires is ridiculous.

So what do we say of people that are only attracted to adolescent boys? Do we fight to change the law to accept this inside of a Christian environment? or do we try to bring people to a point where they are led by the Spirit so they do not give into the desires of their sinful nature?

That's as specific as I'll get as far as my stance goes. And I don't want to sound like I am condemning anyone. I don't have a leg to stand on as far as living the perfect holy life goes, but I feel that I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt in my spirit, that I have some understanding regarding the truth of sinful desire and living by the Spirit. But I'm sure someone knows beyond a shadow of a doubt the opposite of what I "know." which leads me to believe that there is room for us to think that God is speaking to us when it is our own great hope manifesting itself though our filter of what is right and wrong: our relationship with God.

I just urge everyone that before they take a stance on something, don't ask "does God accept me and love me" That's a given. To use that idea to form a belief can justify living and accepting any sin in one's life. God loves us more than we could ever fathom. I know in my heart of hearts there will be homosexuals in heaven, because if a homosexual can't get in, no one can. For, if homosexuality is a sin, who hasn't committed a sin? I think the question that needs to be asked is "is this right or wrong in God's eyes alone in spite of my own desire, in spite of the years I've spent defending it, in spite of the organizations that support it and tell me its ok. What does God and God alone have to say?"

And though I'm sure many have done just that, and have more grounds to speak than me because they've been on their face for hours in tears about the subject, I just wanted to put it out there because I don't approach this as a topic of sexual orientation, but a method of defining sin of all kinds weather homosexuality is one of them or not...

[keltic63]

there's lots that I'd like to talk about in your post, but I'm running out of time before I head to rehearsal.

Originally Posted by pixel

And though I'm sure many have done just that, and have more grounds to speak than me because they've been on their face for hours in tears about the subject, I just wanted to put it out there because I don't approach this as a topic of sexual orientation, but a method of defining sin of all kinds weather homosexuality is one of them or not...

So, if you're sure we've done this, and there are many of us here who have talked about our struggle to arrive at this point in our lives, is there some reason that you doubt our word, our experience, and in particular our experience of God?
Do you believe in sexual orientation? by making the statement that I quoted above, there will be many members of SF that are offended. Because you make the argument that it's just sin, like any other, we shouldn't be all worked up about it ( I think that's what I hear you saying, you can explain that a bit more if you'd like.) That argument sends us the message that the very thing we are (homosexual) is indeed sin itself. There have been plenty of hate crimes justified by this argument; the gaybashers often feel that they are doing God's work to rid the world of evil, because homosexuality is a sin.....you see how it follows. Bombers of abortion clinics feel the same way. I don't think that is what you intend to say, Pixel, I'm stating why that argument is offensive to us.

Please stick around and talk some more.

[themattperry]

pixeltarian,

Thanks for your post. You make your point of view very clear, and it is a strong one. I'm glad to hear you skipped your classes and engaged in a day of alternative learning ... i often wished for those kinds of experiences when I was in school.

You, like many, use the language of "desire" when referring to homosexual attraction. While no one can deny that the defining characteristic of being a gay person is a desire for intimacy,unity and sexual interaction with those of the same sex, being gay is for me different than other desires. Our sexuality is part of our instinctive make-up -- our nature. We are made that way. Would you or I "desire" to be gay if we knew what it entailed? If we knew that it meant enduring all of the suffering your describe?

I am not saying that all in-born or even un-chosen traits are good. However, given the nature of this particular in-born/unchosen trait -- given that it brings about loving, respectful, holy relationships between adult men and women, and given that it is the insturment with which God has provided me to express my deepest love for another human being, I know it is good, and I know it is right.

I believe that the God is basically uninterested in who is loving whom within the context of respectful, adult sexual relationships. From all I can intuit, God is more concerned with how we love eachother ... with what abandon and with what depth and with what faithfulness.

There is sin all around us, for sure ... and more to the point, within us. But it is not sin for me to love according to my nature when it hurts no one, and brings good things to me and to my beloved. That is simply not sin! So be free from worry pixeltarian -- and know that loving who you are born to love will bring you closer to your creator, your nature and your beloved. That's what I believe.

How about you?

[pixeltarian]

Well I speak more of a nature than desire. I do think we are born with sin. before we come to Christ, sinful nature and a social domestication are all we have. in accepting Christ we strive to go against one of the priciples 100% (the sinful nature) and the other we are simply no longer under, though it may line up with where God chooses to take us. The tricky part is determining what sin is. The point I was trying to make is that it is the will of our flesh to let sin survive, and to justify it. So we must be careful when approaching an array of topics, homosexuality included. I think a romantic relationship with another should be something that happens after a journey with God alone. Give to God, and it shall be given.

What I believe is that I was born to love Christ first, and then everything else will come. I will depend on Him to bring my future partner into my life.

[pixeltarian]

Well often two people can "hear from God" and have opposite conclusions as I stated:

"I feel that I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt in my spirit, that I have some understanding regarding the truth of sinful desire and living by the Spirit. But I'm sure someone knows beyond a shadow of a doubt the opposite of what I "know." which leads me to believe that there is room for us to think that God is speaking to us when it is our own great hope manifesting itself though our filter of what is right and wrong: our relationship with God."

===================
you need to take what I said as a whole. I was connecting the idea that people hear opposite things from God, so we should take the time to put our desires, the movments we follow, the people that support us, and even the sexual orientation we are, on hold and seek answers from God 100% so we can be sure it's the truth. A common tone I feel is that everything's I say is an attack. my message is something that also applies to me. if what God says to you is different from what I feel he has spoke into my life regarding a specific right and wrong issue, it challenges me to meditate and pray about it more, and I hope it does the same for others.

[themattperry]

Originally Posted by pixeltarian

What I believe is that I was born to love Christ first, and then everything else will come. I will depend on Him to bring my future partner into my life.

I agree pixel ... what if your walk with Christ brings a partner of the same gender into your life? Would that be ok with you? Or do you put limits on the future in this regard?

Seemed like an obvious question, and I'd be interested to hear your response.

God bless!

[pixeltarian]

So, Keltic63 said: "now, pixeltarian, tell us more about you."

be careful what you wish for:

I guess that creative pursuits have kept me from exploring my own sexuality enough to struggle with it. I would much rather create something thran worry about love and certain other aspects of human interaction. I never dated anyone until about the age of 20. I feel that I'm fairly cold in uncaring in relationships, though I cry about that fact when I am alone. I've had a homosexual experience at one time in my life. there are only 3 people in the world that knew that until this day. I feel comfortable saying at this point in my life though, my worth is not placed in the opinions of man. I am a heterosexual now, but if I lived with no moral guide or personal priciples I would probably be pansexual because of my current indifference when it comes to that area. I want to be able to love, but I am unable to empathize when people are in pain or in need. Another struggle in my life has been with lustful desires. I try to remain in prayer and communication with God. I strive to constantly improve myself, and rewrite the what influence has written on me. I daily pray that God would erase the images and negative influences that have been ingrained into me. I hope to be able to treat everyone as child of God, and never as anything less.

I love to hear ideas and opinions. I love observing people and finding out what brought them to be who they are today. I would rather have a lengthy, meaningful conversation with someone than almost anything else. I think mostly with my head, and not with my heart. I've been a Christian since I was 6. I was raised in the Church, and rejected for the most part. There is no real reason for that other than not being popular. I love God in spite of this opposition. I have fanciful notions of someday being a spiritual leader of sorts. hmm... I'm 22. Currently a music major.

there is not one question you could ask that I wouldn't answer 100% truthfully. So if you had in mind some other information that I did not come up with, feel free...

[tdogg]

Pixeltarian,

it seems that you are perhaps just beginning a 'journey' many of us have already been through. That would (kindly) explain some differences in opinion. Perhaps you are still determining what is right and wrong for you. Many of us on these forums have no issue with our sexual orientation and whether or not it is right for us. It is simply who we are.

I know God brought my (same sex) partner and I together at the perfect time in our lives, so we are perfect for each other. There is nothing sinful or wrong about, nothing to debate, nothing to justify. It just is and I know it pleases God.

Maybe you are still trying to figure it all out for yourself? We can understand that. And we ask that you understand the position many of us here are in - we are okay with ourselves and we know that God is okay with us too. By that I mean, not only does he love us, but he doesn't consider our sexual orientation, including our same-sex relationships, as sin or as being of a sinful nature. The issue might not be that you disagree with us, but that you are still trying to figure out what God's plan is for you???

[pixeltarian]

Originally Posted by themattperry

I agree pixel ... what if your walk with Christ brings a partner of the same gender into your life? Would that be ok with you? Or do you put limits on the future in this regard?

Seemed like an obvious question, and I'd be interested to hear your response.

God bless!

Well if the rule is that I have to answer that question wtihout pulling from any outside variable. yes. I am in submittion to the will of God.

but I still am not convinced of the validity. if I am born attracted to women, that question would be like me asking you, "if God brought a partner of the opposite sex into your life would that be ok with you?"

would it?

[pixeltarian]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Pixeltarian,

it seems that you are perhaps just beginning a 'journey' many of us have already been through. That would (kindly) explain some differences in opinion. Perhaps you are still determining what is right and wrong for you. Many of us on these forums have no issue with our sexual orientation and whether or not it is right for us. It is simply who we are.

I know God brought my (same sex) partner and I together at the perfect time in our lives, so we are perfect for each other. There is nothing sinful or wrong about, nothing to debate, nothing to justify. It just is and I know it pleases God.

Maybe you are still trying to figure it all out for yourself? We can understand that. And we ask that you understand the position many of us here are in - we are okay with ourselves and we know that God is okay with us too. By that I mean, not only does he love us, but he doesn't consider our sexual orientation, including our same-sex relationships, as sin or as being of a sinful nature. The issue might not be that you disagree with us, but that you are still trying to figure out what God's plan is for you???

oh no! hehe. I've come across as unsure of myself. I am concerned about my relationship with God and no one else. In abandoning the desire to "find someone" makes me more sure of myself than ever. when referring to my indifference I more meant I would be lost in sexual sin (see definition of pansexual). Well that, and I just have this very laid back tendancy. If I were to reconnect the idea that I wanted to pursue a relationship, it would be with a girl. I've determined my sexuality, but just not something that is outside of who I am like homosexuality. At the same time homosexualiy doesn't freak me out or anything because I'm pretty ok with people of all sorts.

It's pretty neat that you know what is right for you. I think more in terms of right and wrong. I dont think it's a relative thing.

[themattperry]

Originally Posted by pixeltarian

Well if the rule is that I have to answer that question wtihout pulling from any outside variable. yes. I am in submittion to the will of God.

but I still am not convinced of the validity. if I am born attracted to women, that question would be like me asking you, "if God brought a partner of the opposite sex into your life would that be ok with you?"

would it?

Pixel,

First of all, I definitely would have welcomed whatever partner God might have brought into my life. Yes yes and a thousand times yes. Given that I am 99% of the time attracted to and desire intimacy with men as opposed to women, it's not surprising that my partner is indeed ... a man! But I am and have for many years now been open to God's call in this area of my life. This surrender to the will of God came only after years of struggle to try to be something and someone I am not created to be. I was rebellious and tried to make myself into the straight person that I just am not ... the result was misery and lonliness. I thank God for the man in my life every day. The fact that he is man is somewhat secondary to me ... the main points are that he is in my life spiritually, emotionally and in many other ways, and that we love eachother.

Next ... reading your post brought me to tears, and I am known as a non-cryer. If you were around I would offer you a huge hug. Pixel, I feel for you because I used to be like you. Please know that you are loved and accepted by God and by many of us here -- no matter who you are attracted to or whatever. This is the good news -- the living Gospel -- that you are freed BY love TO love. Your story just brought to my heart and mind the immense, stifling damage that the church's favorite drug brings to people. That drug is GUILT. It is powerful, it is deadly and it is mortal. It is the fear of hell, the fear of discovery, the fear of risk and the fear of loss. The God I gladly follow is the God who so often in the Bible encouraged us all to "have no fear" ... to "be of good courage" ... even in the presence of very scary, courage-draining things.

I don't really know why that came to mind ... but please keep posting Pixel, know that you are not alone, and that there are many here --str8,gay--whatever --- who have been where you are, and have found, through grace, the courage to love again.

[pixeltarian]

In the end love is the only message worth talking about. At this point all I can say is that I hope that Homosexuality is acceptable to God. I will probably never know unless I go through a personal battle with it. I have acquaintances in the GLBC (I hope that was the appropriate abbreviation), but no friends. That is most of the reason I joined the forum. I want to see things from another perspective because I realise people who have gone through the struggle have much more to say than people who condemn them...

[Zerbie]

Hello Pixel, welcome to the forum!

I am not sure how to go about saluting you, as I find you quite on a different wavelength than the one I live on, but what they hey? hello, pleased to make your acquaintance.


It is fascinating that you felt rejected - for a lifetime? In your church as well as elsewhere? You find no reason to which to attribute that feeling?

It's also interesting that you at some level avoid emotional relationships. I can understand your, being in my head, thing - that clicks. But as someone who tends to feel quickly and deeply, and empathize, I find it difficult to understand what it means when you say you do not empathize. I can't visualize it. Perhaps that's something in your character, a trait with which you were born. Or perhaps it's something you *learned* along the way in life, from circumstances that do not seem remarkable to you, but which may have caused you to shut down emotionally.

There were things in my life that I wasn't ready to face as a youngster, and I actively searched for something to throw myself into 100% in order to be too busy to have a "normal" social life. I didn't date much either when young - a handful of dates. Before the age of 22, no relationship that really set bells ringing. I was immersed in music, and really did not have time for much social life with all the rehearsing/classes/practicing, etc. But it was also a conscious decision to throw myself into the career that way in order to avoid things I did not want to face. And I liked having an easy excuse for why I didn't have a boyfriend. That scenario may be something we have in common, or perhaps it is not the case for you as it was for me.

Coupla questions for ya:

What brings you to this forum? Questioning us? Questioning something in your own life? Conflict with the Equality Riders? Other?

And,
What do you mean by, I've determined my sexuality? You mean you chose it? Or you have discovered what your "orientation" is?

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by pixeltarian

In the end love is the only message worth talking about. ...

Yes!!!!

If that were the only sentence I read all day, it would be enough.

Ultimately it comes down to love, love of oneself, love of one's neighbor. Love of the Creator. Love of the Life that is in all things.

Nifty that you answered one of my questions to you AS I was typing the question. Glad to have you with us on the forums, Pixel.

[Dash]

I think...

...that the Lamb has been slain on the altar of the world.

...that the world has been cleansed by this sacrifice.

...that we shall not call unclean what God has made clean.

...that all that moves in love is holy.

...that indeed, love makes all it touches holy, for no one can harm or defile that which they love truly.

...that even if at one time our sexuality was considered unclean (as some foods were...as some nations were to the jews) it is no longer.

Peter's dream was a revelation that flies in the face of the tradition of an "unchanging, eternal" word of God. The vision that came to him of all kinds of creatures being let down from heaven for him to eat is a beautiful metaphor that says to me, "All things are now prepared for for your good, and for your use." The voice spoke to him saying, "Eat." He refused because his tradition and law said it was unclean. The voice spoke again not to say the law had changed...but that the nature of all things had been changed.

You may believe in the law of God, but I think must believe that voice. Perhaps the law has not changed, but we are changed. The whole point of a sacrifice in for the ancients was to purify. The Lamb was slain to purify. The world...God's people...everything has been made clean. The voice either spoke the truth to Peter, or it lied. The blood of Christ was either efficacious for cleansing, or it was not.

I tell you friend...that accusing spirit whispers the words of the law in our ears. "Guilty...guilty...law breaker...guilty."

The spirit of God responded not by changing the law, but by changing us. Much to the chagrin of that angry voice, the law no longer applies. The uncleaness...the sin... against which it stood is removed. There is no law against that which is not sin. There is no law against love.

[pixeltarian]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

H
Coupla questions for ya:

What brings you to this forum? Questioning us? Questioning something in your own life? Conflict with the Equality Riders? Other?

And,
What do you mean by, I've determined my sexuality? You mean you chose it? Or you have discovered what your "orientation" is?

I just posted why I came to the forum. That and I attend NCU where SF just was.


sexuality:
Well I think there are few ways you come to such a conclusion. mine had nothing to do with religion or social norms. I just came to the conclusion that I have a 5% attraction to men and 95% attraction to women. The 5% might come from the fact that I'm easy going, and I accept people and what they want for themselves. If I was hit on by a guy, I probably wouldn't be uncomfortable, I would respect them and give him attention while trying to make it known that I was a hetrosexual without ruining the mood... To be quite honest; a guy has never made my heart rate go up and my palms sweat. A guy has never made me stumble over my own words. A guy has never been the first thing I thought of when I woke up, and the last thing I thought of when I went to bed. I've never just smiled to myself when thinking of a certain guys face. But all of the above apply to girls. I do feel desire, but have a tougher time with love...

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by pixeltarian

I do feel desire, but have a tougher time with love...

Hello Pixel,

Welcome to these forums. I'm pretty new myself here.

What you said about love rings true with me. I think that's been at the core of my life for the most part. I could go on about why that is- there are numerous explanations- but suffice it to say that the search for love in its many forms has been a major part of my life.

I'm gay and have been in a relationship for 14 years now. Loving my husband has taken on many different meanings. After the first year blitz of feeling I found that a whole world opened up. And not always so swell either. I found a resistance within me to really do the work- and it seems like work at times- to love him. For me that has meant learning to accept myself first- with all my foibles and neurosis'. That hasn't always been an easy matter. It was hard to realize that I wasn't the great guy I thought I was all the time: I could be angry, jealous and small-minded. And lustful too. And not always for Mr. Beloved. It has amazed me the issues that have come up in being in loving relationship with my guy. My whole being has been opened up for a good sifting . I think this is why I have the line at the bottom of my posts. Love will have its way with us if we allow it. And those ways are as mysterious as they are wondrous.

I identify with you very much about not feeling compassion for others and being in a state of 'unfeeling'. I've had to work at that. A lot. Still do. I learned about methods to address this matter from those who talk about compassion a great deal- the Buddhists- who talk about 'generating compassion.' This perspective has informed, if I am not mistaken, the genesis of the practices of non-violence via Gandhi. But there is equally effective practices to this end in esoteric christianity as evidenced by the teachings of the Desert Fathers- which are extant in monastic settings to this day. One such means is the "Jesus Prayer." This practice endeavors to get the head talking to the heart- in fact- to have the hearts perspective at all times.

Or course, these contemplative skills must be experienced to be understood. Such is the way.

I would not change a thing now these 14 years since I met my guy. These years have made me what and who I am- learning to love and be loved has taken me to the depths and heights of being alive and being human.

My prayers are with you- may your journey be a light one.

[Joe Brummer]

Based on what you have written, I would say you are not gay. But I am, trust me my partner, even after six years still makes my heart race from time to time, he still makes me stutter, and he still makes my palms sweat (usually about the checkbook) but none the less.....

I didn't choose to feel this way, I have always felt this way, I struggled and prayed for it to go away. I went into therapy to "force" it to go away. Guess what? Didn't work, I am still gay. Conclusion after all that, god still loves me because he made me this way. All of the pain and misery I felt trying to be straight was me wasting away what God gave me....a life!

[tdogg]

I know exactly how you feel - about who you are attracted to...

Guys don't make my heart rate go up and my palms sweat either, or make me stumble over my own words, have never been the first thing I thought of when I woke up, and the last thing I thought of when I went to bed. I've never just smiled to myself when thinking of a certain guys face, but all of the above apply to girls....(thanks for letting me use your words!)!!!

Ok, so I'm a girl and it's my attempt at a little humor...Hope it made ya chuckle! Glad you're here!!!

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by pixeltarian

So, Keltic63 said: "now, pixeltarian, tell us more about you."

be careful what you wish for:

I guess that creative pursuits have kept me from exploring my own sexuality enough to struggle with it. I would much rather create something thran worry about love and certain other aspects of human interaction. I never dated anyone until about the age of 20. I feel that I'm fairly cold in uncaring in relationships, though I cry about that fact when I am alone. I've had a homosexual experience at one time in my life. there are only 3 people in the world that knew that until this day. I feel comfortable saying at this point in my life though, my worth is not placed in the opinions of man. I am a heterosexual now, but if I lived with no moral guide or personal priciples I would probably be pansexual because of my current indifference when it comes to that area. I want to be able to love, but I am unable to empathize when people are in pain or in need. Another struggle in my life has been with lustful desires. I try to remain in prayer and communication with God. I strive to constantly improve myself, and rewrite the what influence has written on me. I daily pray that God would erase the images and negative influences that have been ingrained into me. I hope to be able to treat everyone as child of God, and never as anything less.

I love to hear ideas and opinions. I love observing people and finding out what brought them to be who they are today. I would rather have a lengthy, meaningful conversation with someone than almost anything else. I think mostly with my head, and not with my heart. I've been a Christian since I was 6. I was raised in the Church, and rejected for the most part. There is no real reason for that other than not being popular. I love God in spite of this opposition. I have fanciful notions of someday being a spiritual leader of sorts. hmm... I'm 22. Currently a music major.

there is not one question you could ask that I wouldn't answer 100% truthfully. So if you had in mind some other information that I did not come up with, feel free...

I've got to say, Pixeltarian, that I really appreciate this post. as far as your 1 homosexual experience, that's common, most guys have that experience. I'm more concerned that you feel you have trouble in relationships, that you know you are cold and uncaring. That is troublesome to me as a christian, not from a sinful standpoint, but rather the idea of letting the love of God flow through you. Perhaps you could explore the ways that you prevent that from happening, or look at ways to practice demonstrating that love to others. It doesn't have to be in an intimate relationship, just find ways to go about showing God's love in tangible ways with the people you interact with daily.
I have to agree with tdogg that you are just beginning on this journey. You're 22, and I know what I was doing at 22. I hesitate to call what I did a mistake, but I do know that I should have done something else. I trust God now that everything happens as it should happen, and knowledge and wisdom comes to us when we are ready to receive.
you mention that you felt we were on the defensive, that everything you said was viewed as an attack. I must admit that from your initial posts, it looked to me like that was what was coming, and in some ways did come. For instance, your talk of orientation and sin came across as "hate the sin, love the sinner" which just doesn't seem possible to us because we've suffered so much at the hands of christians who claim to be showing God's love for us "sinners." You said that you came to our forums to learn more: "I want to see things from another perspective because I realise people who have gone through the struggle have much more to say than people who condemn them..." Much of your early posts felt like condemnation. (you said you'd be 100% truthful, I'm doing the same right now.) I was mildly put off by what preceded the quote above: "At this point all I can say is that I hope that Homosexuality is acceptable to God. I will probably never know unless I go through a personal battle with it." My reading of this, which could be totally off, was that you were patronizing us; your mind is made up and you'll listen to us, but it won't affect your decision. Some other things you've posted, don't support that notion. I do think you can know that homosexuality is not only acceptable to God, but also part of God's wonderful creation. I don't think you need to go through a personal battle with it to understand it.
Again, I appreciate what you've posted here today. and judging from the responses, others appreciate it as well.