Harassment, a Circus and Lies

[themattperry]

The riders protested today (however hamfistedly) at a school that has a discriminaotry policy on its books and a president who spews hate (see below). The school did not allow them on campus like many similar schools. So the riders did what they did to bring attention to an UNJUST situation. They did so non-violently. They did not try to make everyone feel better, hold everyone's hand or make the supporters or apologists of injustice feel good ... but they did what they did in love and in truth. So let's park our good-boy/girl, suuuuuuper polite, midwest attitudes (that describes me too -- I'm a St Olaf College grad and former resident of the land of 10000 lakes), at the door for just a second. Personally, I'm not interested in how Minnesota-nice-or-not the protesters were. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. They went to where injustice lived, did so peacefully, and frankly I don't care who they pissed off.

So a few doors got blocked? So someone had a hard time getting to class or to their dorm room? Are you serious?!!!? *arrrrrghhhhh* If the shrill students of North Central really have nothing in their community that needs healing, then why aren't they in classes, discussions and forums with the riders right now, rather than stepping over them to get to class or their dorms?

And if we really want to talk about academic freedom and free speech, it seems like the students of North Central need to look closer to home before they criticize any Equality Riders for blocking access to anything or preventing debate etc .... I'm not sure if this has been posted beforem but here's what the president of North Central does when facts and options he doesn't like are about to appear in a public forum .... He calls the printing presses and cancells the printing of the school's own newspaper ... yes you heard me right. But wait, there's more ... then he FIRES the Christian, husband-and-wife team who edit the paper: details below:

from Inside Higher Education:
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/04/11/newspaper

from Duluth/Superior News:
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/du...s/14297116.htm

The deposed editors have started their own website here if you care to read:
http://www.nlnews.org

Still upset about some doors being blocked and other related impoliteness? Maybe we can all listen again to president Anderson (of North Central) compare us to pedophiles and practitioners of bestiality and then, in his final words, threaten us with hell if we disagree with him: here's the MP3 just in case:

http://www.nlnews.org/Anderson_9-16-05.mp3

Can you tell that I'm angry? I am!!!! I'm going to take a break!

Let's keep our eyes on the prize ... let's welcome with open arms all dialogue, all honest engagement, all support and all prayer. But let's not apologize for engaging in direct action at a place like North Central. Only good can come of that.

And if I were a student at the school, perhaps I'd be shrill too ... it must be humiliating to have to put up with the kind of injustice that you obviously deal with on a regular basis.

[Joe Brummer]

It seems people are much more interested in the protest as opposed to the reason the protest exists. Why not address the underlying issue.

Sorry Venari, from what I saw on the video, I don't think some people blocking a door is threatening.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

It seems people are much more interested in the protest as opposed to the reason the protest exists. Why not address the underlying issue.

Sorry Venari, from what I saw on the video, I don't think some people blocking a door is threatening.

But Joe, some of these students had to walk through 2 or 3 buildings just to get to their dorms and classrooms. And even worse, some had to actually *gasp* look at a homosexual!!!!! Haven't they suffered enough?

ok, all joking aside. I have wrestled with this all night. It's clear that this demonstration was a bit more dramatic, but it was non-violent. They blocked a few doors. It may have been inconvenient, nothing more. I agree with Joe (yes, I said it; despite not always seeing eye-to-eye with him) the underlying reason for the protest needs to be addressed. President Anderson, as Matt pointed out, is very clear about his views, and in making those statements as president of the NCU, this is the official opinion of the college.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by themattperry

The riders protested today (however hamfistedly) at a school that has a discriminaotry policy on its books and a president who spews hate.

So a few doors got blocked? So someone had a hard time getting to class or to their dorm room? Are you serious?!!!?

Let's keep our eyes on the prize ... let's welcome with open arms all dialogue, all honest engagement, all support and all prayer. But let's not apologize for engaging in direct action at a place like North Central. Only good can come of that.

Matt,

Thank for your post and the links provided.

Being a youngin' on this forum- though being at times more than twice the age of those posting- I cannot help but mention the following:

Those throwing up there hands about the actions (and get out the politeness meter at every turn) of the ERide have forgotten- don't know the history and fight- as yes- it is that at times- of the civil rights and gay rights movement. Several of the students have told of being able to be at least quasi- open about their presence on campus. Well. That's a far cry from when I was in school. There wasn't any wiggle room then- the gulf between the 'sinner' and the activity of 'sin' was firmly closed. You weren't allowed to 'be' gay and 'not act' on it. Hello? That little turf of ground these students are standing on would not exist without the deaths and efforts of a great many people. They have forgotten the shoulders they are standing on.

Ride on ERide!

[Venari]

Originally Posted by themattperry

So a few doors got blocked? So someone had a hard time getting to class or to their dorm room? Are you serious?!!!? *arrrrrghhhhh* If the shrill students of North Central really have nothing in their community that needs healing, then why aren't they in classes, discussions and forums with the riders right now, rather than stepping over them to get to class or their dorms?

So the friend of mine that call crying because she felt threatened by one of the Eqaulity Riders is ok? The videos did not show everything, the did not show the harassment.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

NCU needs change but what happened yesterday only caused more hurt to a greater number of people.

And yes the friend that called me is struggling with issues of being a lesbian. That is why we became friends I am someone she talk to and trusts. She was also excited the Equality Ride was comming ... now she is hurt and sees Soulforce as a group that harasses people for their own polotical agenda.

Being a gay student at NCU I can fully speak to the pain a student faces for ebing gay and the pain we not have from the visit. You saw the video you were not there. You didnt se the hurt people have gone through.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Venari

Being a gay student at NCU I can fully speak to the pain a student faces for ebing gay and the pain we not have from the visit. You saw the video you were not there. You didnt se the hurt people have gone through.

were any of these gay students hurt by President Anderson's address (the one you posted for us to listen to)?

[Venari]

Originally Posted by keltic63

were any of these gay students hurt by President Anderson's address (the one you posted for us to listen to)?

Yes and we "called" him on it and he issued an apology. The clip is taken out of context.

[Vanessa White]

I am like many of you, struggling with this process as well, about what the right and "wrong" way is to stand up for what you believe in. I believe you, Venari, when you tell us that some of your friends felt harassed and frightened, but any action that goes against the grain, or causes disruption to our lives can feel frightening and very uncomfortable. Even if persons were not happy with the way in which the Riders conducted their visit there, it does not mean it wasn't necessary for the greater purpose. As many others have said here, oppression/injustice of some is so for ALL. No matter what we debate about what policies a school does or does not have on the books, and what it means, it is beyond speculation that every campus they have visited so far has closeted LGBT persons there, some of which have considered or tried suicide, or have had so much pain over their orientation and/or struggle that they want to die. If these nonviolent, nontraditional ways of protest and demonstration save some of those lives, then it is all well worth it. No one likes to be removed from their comfort zones, but it is really the only way that we learn and grow, learn about ourselves and others. We need to struggle and feel the sickness in the pit of our stomachs in order to realize any real change. I also have to say that just because the visit was not well received, or that persons disagreed with the methods, does not mean that all the riders were looking for was media attention. I think that demeans the whole idea of the rides and is a personal criticism of the Riders that is well undeserved.

I am going to continue to think on this, but the Riders and Soulforce still have my heartfelt support. Peace to all struggling, and I am glad that you have been sticking around Venari, even with your upset over this. I hope that your friends and yourself may come to look at this in a different way.....Vanessa

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Venari

Yes and we "called" him on it and he issued an apology. The clip is taken out of context.

but you are the one who posted it. so did you take it out of context?

[Venari]

Originally Posted by keltic63

but you are the one who posted it. so did you take it out of context?

I was refering to http://www.nlnews.org/Anderson_9-16-05.mp3.

The address about the visit to NCU is correct. I agree that the argument that homosexuality is ok because it is natural and there for morally netural is a fautly one that opens the doors for other claims.

Dr Anderson did not say it is the same thing he said the arguement can be used the same. Which is correct, and which is why homosexuality cannot be argued from that angle or else we place ourselves on a slippery slope.

-Venari

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

Yes and we "called" him on it and he issued an apology. The clip is taken out of context.

Who is the 'we' in the sentence above? Why am I doubful of this statement? Why do I get the impression that you overstate your influence?

Venari- you are one challenging guy. You are welcome here. But after listening to those words- and the gross ignorance expressed in them- it would take quite a turn-a-round for there to be an apology. Exactly how did you extract that apology? Please enlighten me.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Venari

Dr Anderson did not say it is the same this he said the arguement can be used the same. Which is correct, and which is why homosexuality cannot be argued from that angle or else we place ourselves on a slippery slope.

-Venari

ok, you've got to speak english here. I don't follow you.

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Who is the 'we' in the sentence above? Why am I doubful of this statement? Why do I get the impression that you overstate your influence?

Venari- you are one challenging guy. You are welcome here. But after listening to those words- and the gross ignorance expressed in them- it would take quite a turn-a-round for there to be an apology. Exactly how did you extract that apology? Please enlighten me.

WE = fellow students.

And he later said he could have worded it better. But the underlying point is how things are presented.

And Daniel, please refrain from the personal attacks you have proven more often then not you assume things about me that are competly false. I think it may be best if you ask me before making statments about me.

-Venari

[Venari]

Originally Posted by keltic63

ok, you've got to speak english here. I don't follow you.

One typo, better now?

[tdogg]

I wasn't there, I haven't seen the videos. But there are a couple of things that seem pretty clear to me. First, Venari, you were ready for something like this to confirm your suspicion that the Equality Riders were only going to be an obstruction to a school administration that was just about ready to change and accept gays and lesbians, so I can't help but feel that your posts are conveniently exaggerated to further underline your point - the point you attempted to make prior to the Riders even arriving at NCU.

Then, although you state over and over again in several different threads that NCU is just about reading to change their attitudes towards gay and lesbian students, you have provided no proof of this apparent soon-coming change. From everything I've read and heard on this matter, I just don't see any of the administration 'just about to change' their attitudes or anything else. There is some really negative stuff being spewed out by NCU administration, and there is no doubt that, while you and your friends may profess to love your school and have no problems with the administration, there are students that have serious problems with it and have been negatively affected by the administration's opinions and how it operates. It sounds like the Riders were eventually able to reach out to some students and help and support them, and if that's the case then it sounds like the event was worth it, even in the ensuing chaos.

Change for the better doesn't happen by just sitting around and letting things go, it happens by doing something, sometimes the something has to be a bit drastic. If you don't tend to your garden, it's not going to bear great flowers or vegetables, it's going to be full of weeds in no time - and when that happens, you literally have to tear the garden up before you can start to rebuild it. That is what I see the Riders doing, they are trying to get that garden ready to rebuild.

[pixeltarian]

Originally Posted by Venari

So the friend of mine that call crying because she felt threatened by one of the Eqaulity Riders is ok? The videos did not show everything, the did not show the harassment.

good point. just because something is nonviolent, doesn't mean you aren't hurting people. and two wrongs really don't make a right...

[Venari]

Originally Posted by tdogg

I wasn't there, I haven't seen the videos. But there are a couple of things that seem pretty clear to me. First, Venari, you were ready for something like this to confirm your suspicion that the Equality Riders were only going to be an obstruction to a school administration that was just about ready to change and accept gays and lesbians, so I can't help but feel that your posts are conveniently exaggerated to further underline your point - the point you attempted to make prior to the Riders even arriving at NCU.

You have the right to your opinion, but read what other students have said when the Equality Ride visited their schools, I am not saying anything new.


Then, although you state over and over again in several different threads that NCU is just about reading to change their attitudes towards gay and lesbian students, you have provided no proof of this apparent soon-coming change. From everything I've read and heard on this matter, I just don't see any of the administration 'just about to change' their attitudes or anything else.[/QUOTE]

I never said it was coming soon, just that change was happening. What is most important is the change among the students as we are the future leaders of the AG.

Originally Posted by tdogg

Change for the better doesn't happen by just sitting around and letting things go, it happens by doing something, sometimes the something has to be a bit drastic. If you don't tend to your garden, it's not going to bear great flowers or vegetables, it's going to be full of weeds in no time - and when that happens, you literally have to tear the garden up before you can start to rebuild it. That is what I see the Riders doing, they are trying to get that garden ready to rebuild.

Yes but an ignorant gardener is more prone to do damage then to pull the weeds... also doesn’t Jesus talk about this. I remember something about human attempts to pull the tares from the wheat and how we end up pulling out the wheat.

So I guess that is ok since the prevailing logic seems to be two wrongs make it right. GLBT students are getting hurt so we'll come in there and do what ever we can to upset and possibly hurt people to make it better.

-Venari

[tdogg]

Still no real indicate of anything changing there at least going by the news of the event, your posts and the experiences of other students who were helped by the Riders. For those students who you say were hurt by the Riders, are you speaking of physical harm, great mental or emotional harm that is going to require therapy (other than the events forcing these students to look at themselves and ponder their own sexuality?), as a direct result of anything the Riders did?

I stand by my post - the Riders aren't ignorant gardeners, possibly young and not totally experienced (same as you), but definitely not ignorant. I'm sure as time goes by we'll hear more about the events at NCU and the picture may become clearer, or it may become more cloudy. At any rate, I support the Riders and what they are doing, even it makes some students uncomfortable, it obviously has been a help and support to others, at NCU and all the other schools they have visited. Some schools have even openly welcomed the Riders and it appeared to be a very positive experience for all involved.

Very often, we tend to create the exact situation which we are afraid of. I truly hope some of the students at NCU weren't at the ready to assist in the creation of a chaos they believed would happen well prior to the Riders' visit...

[Venari]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Still no real indicate of anything changing there at least going by the news of the event, your posts and the experiences of other students who were helped by the Riders. For those students who you say were hurt by the Riders, are you speaking of physical harm, great mental or emotional harm that is going to require therapy (other than the events forcing these students to look at themselves and ponder their own sexuality?), as a direct result of anything the Riders did?

Well, I have yet to hear of a student who was helped. Many thought they were over the top with their actions. Many felt harassed namely I heard a few time that "A burly girl threatened me not to allow me to my dorm room." How people process this depends on the person.

The fact remains the actions taken have no resemblance to the sit-ins or any other civil rights movement. The actions taken were done to harass and intimidate others.

I my stance is if you think these actions; intimidating students from entering campus, blocking doors potentially creating safety hazards and creating media spectacles are ones the MLK or Gandhi would do then you have greatly missed the mark and are engaging in near terrorist tactics in you use intimidation and harassment to achieve your goals.

-Venari

[dewdrop_world]

Originally Posted by Venari

I my stance is if you think these actions; intimidating students from entering campus, blocking doors potentially creating safety hazards and creating media spectacles are ones the MLK or Gandhi would do then you have greatly missed the mark and are engaging in near terrorist tactics in you use intimidation and harassment to achieve your goals.

I oppose this kind of rhetoric as much as I oppose casual use of the word "holocaust" to refer to the injustice of the month.

I think, when we've all had time to cool down, we will probably end up agreeing that Soulforce is not Al Qaeda.

Venari, I know you're upset, but I think you're allowing your sense of hurt to cloud your judgment. This is understandable but I hope the discussion can move past that point.

hjh