Harassment, a Circus and Lies

[Zerbie]

Well I still haven't seen the videos. . . .

It's kind of impossible to comment now. Reading all your responses, I'm more confused than ever about this and probly will be unless I can see some of what happened.

I guess I'm just a pissy person - my instinctive reaction is it sounds like the Riders were a disruption, not in a good way.

But I'm the same girl who in undergrad used to cross the street TWICE on my way to a class b/c the campus gay rights activists were engaging in dramatic protests of the ROTC which was between the bus stop and my classroom building. There was a lot of screaming on both sides, and activists would try to engage passers-by and press them to take sides. I don't know if I would now, but back then I found the situation intimidating, which is why I crossed the street to go around them. The tension level that I observed there every morning was so high, it turned me off to activism in general, and was the reason I waited several more years before trying again to find my own niche as an activist.

Does that mean I'm over-cautious?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

And Daniel, please refrain from the personal attacks you have proven more often then not you assume things about me that are competly false. I think it may be best if you ask me before making statments about me.

Attack? Let's remember here the story about the little bird who thinks he's being dumped on by the cow. Ever hear of that one? The little bird is all upset that the cow has pooped on him. Well low and behold- while he's extricating himself and fussing about the actions of others a wolve comes along and eats him. The moral is: the person who you think is pooping on you may just be your friend.

[Venari]

Originally Posted by dewdrop_world

I oppose this kind of rhetoric as much as I oppose casual use of the word "holocaust" to refer to the injustice of the month.

I do not intend to compare Soulforce to Al Qaeda.

But using the definition of the word is using intimidation to achieve your goals.

I do agree with zerbie there may need to take a time out. I know on my side I need to take some time to breathe and "count to ten." I hope from my previous posts you will understand despite my opposition to the visit I was looking for the best. Also I hope you understand my being upset is deeply genuine and please respect me on that issue.

-Venari

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

again to find my own niche as an activist.

Does that mean I'm over-cautious?

No. You just have a nose for self-preservation. A good thing. We can't be angels all the time- and there are those situations where 'angels fear to tread'.

Fear is a very real thing- and these situations kick up a lot of it on both sides. I think that's something to look at. But as they say in the theatre when you've fumbled that high note:

"Never reproach youself!"

It takes a lot of courage- and yes- daring- to get out in front of an audience or engage in actions of non-violence. Missteps or not- it's getting out there that's the point.

[NathanATX]

Venari, I just want you to know I'm praying for you and for your friend. It sounds like you both have a lot of fear about people finding out about your sexuality. It must have been quite a shock to see gay & lesbian people stand up for themselves in such a bold and unapologetic way.

I'm praying for your peace & freedom.

Nate

[Dash]

One of the things that I have been thinking about for some time is the differing approaches toward this activism that are debated here. Namely:

• a patient, long-term plan for gradual change from within

vs.

• high-profile confrontations with more immediate goals

I've almost never really left the University setting since 1989, and I am aware of the power that students can have. At least in the secular intuitions of which I have been a part, when the students get riled up and there is a clamoring of letters and calls to the administration...protests and stand-ins...sidewalk chalkings and general dismay...when the students get together for change, the administration actually does listen. On the other hand, long-term proposals can be problematic for one very important reason...

...the student population is constantly changing.

The active, experienced and involved students are always on their way out to be replaced by new students who may or may not yet be involved. Here at Northwestern University, this there was a recent discussion of how the student government simply had no idea what programs and legislation had gone before in the previous twenty years or so. There was no historian and no real chain of connection between "generations" of students.

After learning more about NCU, it occurs to me that there is (internally speaking) a stronger, more constant base of support for the conservative tradition than for the progressive. The donor/alumni base does not change, whereas the student bodies are always in constant flux. With an administration that seems to strictly control student publications and dissent...and also (necessarily) seeks support of the older donors, it seems that student-led change might be seriously handicapped.

There's always is the issue of money unfortunately. Schools...even Christian schools are a business. Tuition generally does not cover all the costs of running a university, and dissatisfied donors simply will not give to a Christian organization that they think is heading down a wrong path. Progressive moral change is inherently at odds with older, generally more conservative, donors.

Am I making a valid observation? If so, how will it inform our methods of activism?

Love to all.

[dewdrop_world]

Originally Posted by Venari

I do not intend to compare Soulforce to Al Qaeda.

But using the definition of the word is using intimidation to achieve your goals.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/terrorism

"the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion"

I also haven't seen the videos, but I would have to suppose that there's a very great difference between a systematic use of terror (we must not lose sight of the gravity of that word) and an unarmed protest which, admittedly, caused some inconvenience and hurt some feelings (the latter of which is of more concern to me).

Originally Posted by Venari

Also I hope you understand my being upset is deeply genuine and please respect me on that issue.

I think there's an opportunity here for understanding. I can see that you feel violated, and there's a genuine rage in response. This is not much different from the rage I feel when a Christian pastor, however well-meaning, insists that my experience of, and relationship with, God is simply irrelevant because I am an "unrepentant homosexual." I'm not yet able to articulate how deeply dehumanizing it feels to hear such words, especially from people who are supposed to embody the love of Christ.

The NCU community is, naturally and understandably, going to react first with self-defensiveness. Anyone would--I would if the tables were turned. During that phase, it's natural to view the opponent as entirely unjustified. But eventually the need to defend oneself passes. What happens then?

One of the ways I cope with my heartbreak over what Christianity has become is to ask myself, repeatedly, what do I not see clearly yet? People hold these views, and take harmful actions based on them, for a reason. Without understanding and addressing that reason, no progress is possible. Will NCU ask, "What do we not understand about our LGBT brothers and sisters in Christ?"

Now we're in a situation where NCU and the protesters have something in common--the feeling of being unfairly targeted, and powerless to stop it. This is a great foundation for bridges to be built, though it will take a very special person at NCU to begin that building. You might even be that person! For you can already see both sides more clearly than most at your school.

James

[tdogg]

Dash, you make a good point regarding the school receiving donations and having to be careful not to upset the donors and, therefore, lose them. Again, seems to boil down to 'its all about the

Working for state government, I see the similarity with elected officials attempting to 'regulate' an industry that provides the them with significant campaign donations. It's almost impossible. So, while on the surface the blame may seem well laid onto the school's administration, they could very well be reacting strictly (and/or mainly) with what actions they feel are necessary to continue receiving much needed funding to run the school. Kinda "Catch 22" situation or even 'vicious circle'.

BTW, my girlfriend is a graduate of Northwestern U (although some years ago), attended on a full softball scholarship. She's such a jock!

[tdogg]

Ok, I watched the 2 videos that Venari linked up (Mac at home but PC at work!), read the articles regarding the school paper editors being dismissed, and listened to Dr. Anderson.

I don't see any indication that anyone wants to change as far as the school administration goes. Perhaps some students want change while others don't? The videos did not demonstrate anything that I could attribute to creating hurt, nothing more than a minor inconvenience. It didn't show any of the Riders doing anything other than sitting in the entrance in front of the door (one person was actually in front of the doorway itself), calmly having a positive conversation with a student that appeared to support them. The only hurt or pain that I could think of happening to the students you talk about, perhaps is that issues regarding their own sexuality and/or their own stance on the subject is painfully brought to the forefront with the actions of the Riders.

The 'stuff' spewed forth by Dr. Anderson shows he has no inclination of allowing for any discussion of opinions other than the school policy and those opinions of the people who fund the school - again, this is proof it's all about the money.

The school newspaper editors being dismissed just confirms that the school administration is not about to let anything majorly controversial hit the papers and infiltrate the minds of the students - thereby, keeping a safe haven for school fund donors...again, all about the money.

Sorry Venari, in all the I've seen, read and heard on this thread, I just can't find anything to support what you are saying. I don't see anything that equates to an apology, only hate from the mouth of the Dr. But I'm glad you're here and praying for you all at NCU. Keep up the faith!

[pixeltarian]

Originally Posted by tdogg

It didn't show any of the Riders doing anything other than sitting in the entrance in front of the door (one person was actually in front of the doorway itself), calmly having a positive conversation with a student that appeared to support them.

The same student was in tears later. I was there. they blocked every door but one. I was there. so either you call me a liar now or you accept the fact that their mission was to block entrances. I saw people hurt. so call me a liar or accept that people were hurt.

[dewdrop_world]

Originally Posted by pixeltarian

The same student was in tears later. I was there. they blocked every door but one. I was there. so either you call me a liar now or you accept the fact that their mission was to block entrances. I saw people hurt. so call me a liar or accept that people were hurt.

I don't think anyone here is (or should be) denying that feelings were hurt.

I feel moved to quote myself from a couple of messages ago:

I think there's an opportunity here for understanding. I can see that you feel violated, and there's a genuine rage in response. This is not much different from the rage I feel when a Christian pastor, however well-meaning, insists that my experience of, and relationship with, God is simply irrelevant because I am an "unrepentant homosexual." I'm not yet able to articulate how deeply dehumanizing it feels to hear such words, especially from people who are supposed to embody the love of Christ.

The NCU community is, naturally and understandably, going to react first with self-defensiveness. Anyone would--I would if the tables were turned. During that phase, it's natural to view the opponent as entirely unjustified. But eventually the need to defend oneself passes. What happens then?

One of the ways I cope with my heartbreak over what Christianity has become is to ask myself, repeatedly, what do I not see clearly yet? People hold these views, and take harmful actions based on them, for a reason. Without understanding and addressing that reason, no progress is possible. Will NCU ask, "What do we not understand about our LGBT brothers and sisters in Christ?"

Now we're in a situation where NCU and the protesters have something in common--the feeling of being unfairly targeted, and powerless to stop it. This is a great foundation for bridges to be built, though it will take a very special person at NCU to begin that building.

James

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by pixeltarian

The same student was in tears later. I was there. they blocked every door but one. I was there. so either you call me a liar now or you accept the fact that their mission was to block entrances. I saw people hurt. so call me a liar or accept that people were hurt.

does it have to be either/or? I mean, I don't doubt that the student was crying, or even that the student was hurt. Could it be that the discussion brought up painful issues for the student? Could it be that the E Rider was candid and firm and perhaps spoke with such conviction and force, that the student felt intimidated?

I hesitate to use this illustration, but it seems appropriate. A few months ago, I took my youngest son to see the movie Hoodwinked. It's an animated re-telling of Little Red Riding Hood. The story is told 4 times, each by a different character who is suspected of being the "Goody Bandit" Each version of the story is radically different, yet each believes their version is truth. The kicker: each version is the truth, given the limited information that each character has. I think the same may be happening here. All of us have limited information about the story, including the student who was in tears. All of the versions could indeed be true according to the bits of information we have.

[themattperry]

Originally Posted by pixeltarian

The same student was in tears later. I was there. they blocked every door but one. I was there. so either you call me a liar now or you accept the fact that their mission was to block entrances. I saw people hurt. so call me a liar or accept that people were hurt.

Unless I'm mistaken, pixel, no one is calling you a liar. Also, no one is denying that people's feelings were hurt. Sometimes the truth can be uncomfortable.

Was the student really in tears because they "blocked all doors except one"? Or was there another more revealing reason?

Was it because the reality of the discrimination and injustice of her school was being revealed and it felt embarassing? Was it because she thought it was unfair for the riders to be at North Central? Was it because the peaceful status-quo of her campus was interrupted?

I don't doubt, as others have stated, that protests bring people out of their comfort zones. That is the point. That said, I do wish the student involved much peace, but also much truth and much courage.

Pixel, I wish you courage as well. Join us in speaking out -- North Central has already spoken and silenced silenced student dissent. Here again, is what president Anderson thinks in case anyone has any doubt:

http://www.nlnews.org/Anderson_9-16-05.mp3

Where is his retraction?

[Dash]

Originally Posted by pixeltarian

The same student was in tears later. I was there. they blocked every door but one. I was there. so either you call me a liar now or you accept the fact that their mission was to block entrances. I saw people hurt. so call me a liar or accept that people were hurt.

I must admit that as I watched the blond girl speaking with the Equality Riders sitting at the door--even through the filters of television and the internet--I saw someone riding the edge of all her strength. I'm not surprised that she was in tears afterwards. She looked to me to be someone who was doing her darnedest to meet the riders with Christian love.

I imagine that she was terrified and feeling awkwardly exposed. She was being filmed for goodness sake! Oy! I was hurting for her because I could tell how much she was holding in.

I can tell you also that I (me personally) would not have made the decision to block doorways. But, then again, I'm a scared rabbit in person...desperately introverted...the whole idea of going around the country to confront and protest is terrifying to me...I'd collapse after the first confrontation!

Which...is also why I admire the riders so much.

**********
I've been wanting to mention this for days, and haven't yet. This may not be the appropriate thread, but here goes...

I read a discussion (www.talk2action.org, I believe) about how organized the Christian "right" is, and why the "left" cannot organize as effectively. The reason they gave is playing out right here in this forum:

We all may agree about the ultimate message, but we never march in lock-step. We value dissent. We value the journey as much as the end. We question the veracity of every opinion...we don't know...and value that! We doubt our methods. We test ourselves and each other. So, we end up stumbling all over ourselves. All of this comes from the wonderful qualities that make up the individuals in our community. We are creative, compassionate, empathetic, emotional, unique, and we want fellows who are just as diverse and unique as each of us.

This is not the way the "right" functions. They present a world-view that is monolithic. They have a sacred, written charge to "make disciples of the whole world" ... to convert the whole world to "their way" of thinking. They value unity of thought rather than many diverse opinions. They offer rewards and punishments at the end of the journey. In fact, many of their exhortations are rooted in fear...the fear they feel and the fear they infuse in others. They "know" the answers and make a much clearer path to their goal.

In the end, one of these "world-views" is much more effective at organizing and maintaining action. Our own progress is hindered by our very nature. Alas!!

And...I'm sorry that the distinctions I'm making divide everything up into "us" and "them". But nonetheless there are some very real differences that are relevant to this debate.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Dash

We all may agree about the ultimate message, but we never march in lock-step. We value dissent. We value the journey as much as the end. We question the veracity of every opinion...we don't know...and value that! We doubt our methods. We test ourselves and each other. So, we end up stumbling all over ourselves. All of this comes from the wonderful qualities that make up the individuals in our community. We are creative, compassionate, empathetic, emotional, unique, and we want fellows who are just as diverse and unique as each of us.

GREAT post! What can we do to create a monolithic response?

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Attack? Let's remember here the story about the little bird who thinks he's being dumped on by the cow. Ever hear of that one? The little bird is all upset that the cow has pooped on him. Well low and behold- while he's extricating himself and fussing about the actions of others a wolve comes along and eats him. The moral is: the person who you think is pooping on you may just be your friend.

Daniel,

Does that mean your a the cow Shi**ing on the weak or are you the wolf devouring the weak?

-Venari

[NCUap]

Hey,

I'm an NCU student. I really don't see how you guys can say you experienced "redemptive suffering at North Central University; Physical altercations begun by North Central Security." I guess we can just look to the news reel to see what that was like...I'm really confused on whose mind you are trying to change with this campaign, it really seems to me that at a lot of places the goal has been to get arrested. I know we have had groups here before who have just set up on the sidewalks and I have seen many students stop by and chat with them and find out where they are coming from... However, with this approach it gave students who might like to actually talk to you guys the choice between talking or going to class and with finals coming up in less than two weeks it is obvious why many chose to just stay inside. Over and over again we have been told by our president to love everyone at soulforce as brothers and sisters in Christ. I went to your guys' rally and it made me sad to see you who are Christians 'bashing' a good Christian man like our president and others who tried to show our love towards you. I mean I love you all with Christ's love just as I love my homosexual friends but a display like that just made me question the integrity of what is supposed to be a 'Christian' organization like Soulforce. I honestly now have problems holding any respect for your guys' organization.

[Venari]

Originally Posted by themattperry

Was it because the reality of the discrimination and injustice of her school was being revealed and it felt embarassing? Was it because she thought it was unfair for the riders to be at North Central? Was it because the peaceful status-quo of her campus was interrupted?

Having seen it with my own eyes it is not that the "discrimination and injustice" was in our faces, or that our peaceful status quo has been interrupted. It has been discussed and talked about for months now.

The reason people are hurt is because of the actions of the Equality Riders towards the students and the school. Plain and simple people are hurt for that reason.

-Venari

[dewdrop_world]

Originally Posted by Venari

The reason people are hurt is because of the actions of the Equality Riders towards the students and the school. Plain and simple people are hurt for that reason.

I repeat my question:

What is it about the situation that you aren't seeing yet?

This may not be something you can answer today, but it's a crucial question.

And to repeat my challenge, what is the opportunity here for greater understanding?

Meant as rhetorical questions for now... but you should try to answer them, preferably while you still feel the urgency in your heart as you do now.

James

[Venari]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

Venari, I just want you to know I'm praying for you and for your friend. It sounds like you both have a lot of fear about people finding out about your sexuality. It must have been quite a shock to see gay & lesbian people stand up for themselves in such a bold and unapologetic way.

Nathan,

I deeply respect you but this has nothing to do with it. There are several students who are open with their sexuality on campus... each to varying degrees.

The shock comes from seeing "gay & lesbian people stand up for themselves in such a bold and unapologetic way" and cause pain to an entire campus, several of who are GLBT. Its sad that they are unapologetic for hurting a number of people.

-Venari