Hello, my name is...."Mud"!

[Ozgeorge]

Hi,
I'm George, a Greek Orthodox Christian living in Australia.
I'm 42 on Sunday (with a huge "Superbash" organized for the auspicious event!), work in Psychiatry, and I'm also a moderator on an Orthodox Christian forum (probably not for long after this post!)
Being a moderator on a Christian forum kinda gives you some "credibility" in people's eyes, so when I started challenging some misinformed ideas about homosexuality in threads there, not a few eyebrows were raised (which I expected), but I was even more surprized by the number of posters (fourteen at last count) who came out to me privately as Bisexual, Gay or Lesbian, some of them "coming out" for the first time.
Speaking with people in person, on the phone and online who have shared their experiences with me of being GLBT and Christian has really challenged my own ideas, and the've changed in ways I previously never thought they could. Coming from an "Apostolic" Church (one which claims to have received it's teachings in a direct line of living tradition handed down from the Apostles to the present) the basic realization I came to was actually two questions:

1) Why was the issue of bi/homosexuality a non-issue for so many centuries in the Church and only became an issue in the last 200 years or so?

2) If the Church's moral teaching is "unchangeable", why, up until 200 years ago, was "usury" a greivous sin (often incurring excommunication), but now that charging interest on loans is the basis of our economy, it's suddenly OK to be a usurer?

Anyway, there are more facets to me than can fit into one post, but I thought I should at least say hello. Look forward to chatting!

[Gennee]

Originally Posted by Ozgeorge

Hi,
I'm George, a Greek Orthodox Christian living in Australia.
I'm 42 on Sunday (with a huge "Superbash" organized for the auspicious event!), work in Psychiatry, and I'm also a moderator on an Orthodox Christian forum (probably not for long after this post!)
Being a moderator on a Christian forum kinda gives you some "credibility" in people's eyes, so when I started challenging some misinformed ideas about homosexuality in threads there, not a few eyebrows were raised (which I expected), but I was even more surprized by the number of posters (fourteen at last count) who came out to me privately as Bisexual, Gay or Lesbian, some of them "coming out" for the first time.
Speaking with people in person, on the phone and online who have shared their experiences with me of being GLBT and Christian has really challenged my own ideas, and the've changed in ways I previously never thought they could. Coming from an "Apostolic" Church (one which claims to have received it's teachings in a direct line of living tradition handed down from the Apostles to the present) the basic realization I came to was actually two questions:

1) Why was the issue of bi/homosexuality a non-issue for so many centuries in the Church and only became an issue in the last 200 years or so?

2) If the Church's moral teaching is "unchangeable", why, up until 200 years ago, was "usury" a greivous sin (often incurring excommunication), but now that charging interest on loans is the basis of our economy, it's suddenly OK to be a usurer?

Anyway, there are more facets to me than can fit into one post, but I thought I should at least say hello. Look forward to chatting!

Welcome to the site, George. The answer to your first question is that BI/homosexuality was even whispered much less talked about and yet it did exist. I'm a transgender individual and transgender people were executed because they were thought to be witches. In the last 200 years issues like slavery, women, poverty, war and social injustice have come to the fore in many churches. Some of their original positions were wrong.

As to the second question, it's a tough call because people are out of work. I don't know that much about the interest on loans but I don't feel that it's the best solution either.

Gennee

[Pablo Rafael]

Hi George,

A very warm welcome and may I also say HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! a day early, my young friend. And since we are on the subject, just why wasn't I invited to this superbash?! We have only just met and already I am getting NOT invited to things!

I find the Greek Orthodox church interesting. Being a Roman Catholic I understand the idea of an "Apostolic" church. In the Catholic church teachings are very slow to change because everything is handed down from centuries of history. Though the Catholic church isn't known for being very gay friendly, I have not experienced any intolerance in my parish, nor have I ever heard anything anti-gay preached. If only that attitude could work its way up to the top of the church hierarchy.

My mom said something interesting the other day. (She is protestant.) She said that it seemed that being anti-gay wasn't something that came from the Bible. Rather it seemed to be a matter of pride. If a person was against gays, they could consider themselves better Christians.

We need more people like you and my mom who will challenge the homophobia that exists in the church. Your efforts are much appreciated. I assume from your post that you are not gay yourself. I think many will listen to straight people where they won't to those of us who are gay. Keep challenging those prejudices.

And next year I expect to be invited to the party.
And since this is going to Australia, do I have to write it upside down?
But you Australians are probably used to reading things upside down so I will just leave it like it is.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[prairielesbian]

A very warm welcome and may I also say HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! a day early, my young friend. And since we are on the subject, just why wasn't I invited to this superbash?! We have only just met and already I am getting NOT invited to things!

Pab, my friend! Take it easy.... Settle down, count to 10, walk around the block - it's not all about YOU!

Wow, that was a brave move on my behalf.

[Ozgeorge]

Thanks for the welcome and well wishes!
The big day has arrived- it's Superbash Day! I made a huge Advent Calendar at work to count down to it (it was really cute, with a Lindt Chocolate bar behind each door) and a colleague just rang to say they've just opened the last door.
Sorry for the late notice, but I may be able to make it up to you guys next year, as I will be visiting the US in June. Remind me then that I owe you both a drink.

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

My mom said something interesting the other day. (She is protestant.) She said that it seemed that being anti-gay wasn't something that came from the Bible. Rather it seemed to be a matter of pride. If a person was against gays, they could consider themselves better Christians.

She's a wise woman, and I agree entirely! It seems to be a form of "cheap righteousness".... rather than become holy myself, it's easier to label a particular group which I don't belong to as "unholy".
I also agree with her that homophobia is niether Biblical nor Apostolic, a fact which is difficult to deny in the Orthodox Church since there is mounting evidence that we had a Rite of same-sex union since before the 9th century (the Adelphopoiia Rite) which only got banned recently as modern western Christian attitudes to homosexuality were adopted in the Orthodox Church.

[Ozgeorge]

Originally Posted by Gennee

I'm a transgender individual and transgender people were executed because they were thought to be witches.

It's actually interesting to note the number of transgender Saints who are honoured in the early Church. For example, St. Theodora.

[Pablo Rafael]

Originally Posted by prairielesbian

Pab, my friend! Take it easy.... Settle down, count to 10, walk around the block - it's not all about YOU!

IT'S NOT?!!!! No, I just can't accept that!
I think I'll disappear back into my own fantasy world. It's very nice there.

Originally Posted by Ozgeorge

homophobia is niether Biblical nor Apostolic, a fact which is difficult to deny in the Orthodox Church since there is mounting evidence that we had a Rite of same-sex union since before the 9th century (the Adelphopoiia Rite) which only got banned recently as modern western Christian attitudes to homosexuality were adopted in the Orthodox Church.

Interesting. I am going to have to research this idea further. Too bad the western attitudes toward homosexuality influenced the eastern church and not the other way round. With the litle bit of experience I have had with people in the Greek Orthodox church it seems that the Greek Orthodox church is MORE homophobic than the Roman Catholic church. However, that is just anecdotal (sp?) evidence from very limited sources.

[Zerbie]

Welcome, George. Hope you are enjoying it here.

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

IT'S NOT?!!!! No, I just can't accept that!
I think I'll disappear back into my own fantasy world. It's very nice there.

.

To Pabs: I like your fantasy world. Any more adventure stories to share with us?

[Rick336]

Happy "belated" birthday George. The fact that fourteen people sent you private messages and "came out" to you says that you are a trusted and respected man. Your words of acceptance about homosexuality are helping others more easily find self-love and self-acceptance in a sometimes hostile world.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about you.

Keep up the good work and welcome to the forum.


Rick

[Ozgeorge]

Thanks for the well wishes guys!
And thank you all for the acceptance you have shown me!

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

Too bad the western attitudes toward homosexuality influenced the eastern church and not the other way round. With the litle bit of experience I have had with people in the Greek Orthodox church it seems that the Greek Orthodox church is MORE homophobic than the Roman Catholic church. However, that is just anecdotal (sp?) evidence from very limited sources.

Contemporary Orthodox theologians (such as the recently deceased Fr. John S. Romanides) are calling this the "Western Captivity" of the Orthodox Church. A good starting point about this phenomenon is the book "Functional and Dysfunctional Christianity" by Fr. Philotheos Faros. Neurotic notions about sexuality began seeping into the Orthodox Church around Victorian times and persisted to this day. Interestingly, the Church in Greece banned the Adelphopoiia Rite in 1869 which was they year that the English word "Homosexual" was first used to describe homosexuals as a distinct group.

For an exploration of the Adelphopoiia Rite, I'd recommend the book "Same Sex Unions in Premodern Europe" by John Boswell.

[prairielesbian]

[quote=Pablo Rafael;59249] IT'S NOT?!!!! No, I just can't accept that!
I think I'll disappear back into my own fantasy world. It's very nice there.


Pab, you have a fantasy world? So do I! Just knew we had something in common.