Republican National Convention

[matthewspeed]

Sorry folks, I actually am enjoying the convention. I like Sarah Palin. I may not agree on all the issues, but she is the real deal. I have to be objective here. She is tough, and she gets things done. Plain and simple. Her experience as a governor shows that. She will buck heads with her own party if needed. I see this more with the Republicans. The Democrats seem more about party unity. And about her knocking Obama, that is politics, whether we like it or not. The Dems do the same thing. We've got to get thick skin folks.

I am an independant. I have a love/hate relationship with both parties. I want gay rights and health care, so I am for the Dems in that manner. On the other hand, I am pro life and I want national security. I want to get out of Iraq just like anyone else, but I am not convinced that Obama/Biden have the experience with foreign affairs and dealing with terrorists. On the other hand, Biden has more experience in this arena than Obama, and that is a good thing.

It's a false notion that McCain will be a Bush clone. How can that be when the Republican party originally did not want McCain due to his position as more of an independant? He, like Palin, will challenge his own party on issues that don't meet up to their own convictions.

I am still weighing out everything. I will probably be one of those voters to make my final decision on voting day! LOL! I am being pulled in both directions.

I have made my decision that I am not going to vote democrat just because I am gay. Many of my gay friends think I should do just that. I am an independant thinker with many convictions, as many on this forum are. Before I can make an ethical decision, I have to be objective and read betweeb the lines on every word from both candidates.

This truely is the hardest presidential race for me to decide on.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by matthewspeed

Sorry folks, I actually am enjoying the convention. I like Sarah Palin. I may not agree on all the issues, but she is the real deal. I have to be objective here.

What's your objective view of Sarah Palin's record on gay rights? In point of fact, she is against every right you have or could have. That's a great deal more than simply not agreeing with someone. She has worked, and will continue to work to make sure you are a second-class citizen. If elected, she and McCain will in the position to put 3 conservative judges on the supreme court with the goal of overturning Roe-vs-Wade as well as the reversal of Sodomy laws. Think it can't happen? Think again.

So- what is it that you like about Palin? Please clue me in, because her actions in the past as well as her conservative beliefs (are those off the table for discussion?) speak volumes. And if you see something else that I'm not seeing, I'd love to be informed.

And what about Palin's real-time governance of Alaska? She's sitting pretty on a very large surplus, a surplus that exists because of federal aid as well as oil profits. In that sense, she has very little experience dealing with the problems that other governors face. Problems like the mortgage and fiscal crisis (remember all that money that Bush has borrowed to pay for the war?).

And let's look at the policy of McCain. He has pledged that he wants even deeper tax cuts for corporations as well as a continuation for Bush's tax cuts which favor the wealthy. This would reduce tax revenue by 1 trillion over the next 4 years. And how, I ask you, is that sound economic policy?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/04/op...on&oref=slogin

Who exactly is going to pay for the war?

[BruceChris]

For the last few presidential conventions, I have been watching patterns evolve. On the Democrat's side, there is recognition of problems and the offering of solutions by the different candidates, and an overall feeling of hope.

On the Republican side, there is little mention of any problems, except those that can, and are blamed on the Democrats. There is an overall feeling of celebration:

*We are better than they are, they have problems or more likely are the problem, and we feel wonderful about ourselves because we are morally superior to them, we have no problems, and we're going to win.*

Where I once expected to see nostalgia, they go right past nostalgia and directly into denial. They deny that there are issues for them to worry about and need to address, and then proceed to celebrate that *fact*.

The Republican party is one vast enabler. They tell each other "There is no 54 Trillion dollar debt that will come due within most of our lifetimes, everything is wonderful, and we are going to win". And every 4 yaers, they get a little better at it.

Peace, Love, and a little Paranoia, Bruce Chris

[BruceChris]

Originally Posted by Daniel

"Who exactly is going to pay for the war?'

Why Daniel, I thought that you knew. The Saudi's and the Chinese are our bankers. We owe them each about One $Trillion dollars

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by BruceChris

For the last few presidential conventions, I have been watching patterns evolve. On the Democrat's side, there is recognition of problems and the offering of solutions by the different candidates, and an overall feeling of hope.

On the Republican side, there is little mention of any problems, except those that can, and are blamed on the Democrats. There is an overall feeling of celebration:

*We are better than they are, they have problems or more likely are the problem, and we feel wonderful about ourselves because we are morally superior to them, we have no problems, and we're going to win.*

Where I once expected to see nostalgia, they go right past nostalgia and directly into denial. They deny that there are issues for them to worry about and need to address, and then proceed to celebrate that *fact*.

The Republican party is one vast enabler. They tell each other "There is no 54 Trillion dollar debt that will come due within most of our lifetimes, everything is wonderful, and we are going to win". And every 4 yaers, they get a little better at it.

Peace, Love, and a little Paranoia, Bruce Chris

It's a big game of "They're Different Than Us". It's kind of sad, while at the same time maddening.

The front page of CNN's site this morning, offered without comment:

[matthewspeed]

Originally Posted by Daniel

So- what is it that you like about Palin? Please clue me in, because her actions in the past as well as her conservative beliefs (are those off the table for discussion?) speak volumes. And if you see something else that I'm not seeing, I'd love to be informed.

Sarah Palin does not give in to the intimidation of large corporations. She has fought for the people of her state. Over the opposition of oil companies, she approved an increase in taxes on the oil industry. This has generated new wealth for the state, while oil prices are increasing. Some of that money will be given to the residents of Alaska. Palin gained approval to send $1200.00 to every citizen in Alaska to help cope with rising gas prices! And in Alaska, the gas prices are just about the highest in the nation.

These checks that will be sent to the residents of Alaska will be added to an annual dividend of about $2000.00 that each resident could receive this year from an oil wealth savings account.

This sounds like an independent more than a Bush Republican! She has faced the oil companies and has given back to the people. This is the kind of leadership that is needed.

I realize she is not for gay rights, but I will say this, though not popular at all on this fourm, but there are other rights that can supercede our Gay rights. With out a strong America, we won't have a chance to fight for our rights.

I hate the war and polls show that a large amount of Republicans do not like this war. But, we cant just make a date and pull out. It has to be done correctly. We are dealing with terrorists like we have never dealt with before. McCain has the know how and the strategy to win this war. I'm sorry, but I do NOT feel safe with Obama as our protector. Obama is a brilliant man. He is a man of character and honor. He would be awsome with domestic issues, but I just don't see him defending our country against the evils of the middle East, or Russia, for that matter. I'm sorry, but experience is a necessity in this area. Again, with out a safe nation, our rights will be non existent.

The safety for our nation is my first concern for this election, not my gay rights. First, lets keep our nation safe and then we can concentrate on rights for all people.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by matthewspeed

Sarah Palin does not give in to the intimidation of large corporations. She has fought for the people of her state. Over the opposition of oil companies, she approved an increase in taxes on the oil industry.

She's fighting and praying for a pipe line to be build over protected land. I would hardly characterize that as not giving in to the intimidation of a large corporation.

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by matthewspeed

This sounds like an independent more than a Bush Republican! She has faced the oil companies and has given back to the people. This is the kind of leadership that is needed.

The oil companies aren't the problem. American over-consumption is the problem, as is the purchase of gas guzzlers by people who don't need them.

I realize she is not for gay rights, but I will say this, though not popular at all on this fourm, but there are other rights that can supercede our Gay rights. With out a strong America, we won't have a chance to fight for our rights.

What rights do the American people need to give up to make a 'strong America'? What gay rights would hamper a 'strong America'?

I hate the war and polls show that a large amount of Republicans do not like this war. But, we cant just make a date and pull out. It has to be done correctly. We are dealing with terrorists like we have never dealt with before. McCain has the know how and the strategy to win this war.

John McCain and the Republican party have no intention of pulling out, and John McCain is in favor of torturing prisoners using the same methods used upon him in Vietnam.

Or do the (unlawful) prisoners have to give up rights too?

I'm sorry, but I do NOT feel safe with Obama as our protector. Obama is a brilliant man. He is a man of character and honor. He would be awsome with domestic issues, but I just don't see him defending our country against the evils of the middle East, or Russia, for that matter. I'm sorry, but experience is a necessity in this area. Again, with out a safe nation, our rights will be non existent.

I don't follow your logic. Are you saying that since he doesn't have a lot of experience with foreign policy he'd hand over the keys to Lebanon? And is there a credible threat to our country coming from the middle east?

The safety for our nation is my first concern for this election, not my gay rights. First, lets keep our nation safe and then we can concentrate on rights for all people.

Describe for me the ways in which John McCain will 'keep our nation safe' that Barack Obama won't.

We've given up a lot of rights in the past eight years in the name of national security. How are we safer now than we were before?

Also, define 'safe'.

[Gennee]

Originally Posted by Daniel

I wonder. I am watchng the Republican Convention again this evening. Huckabee is speaking at the moment. He's trumpeted the issues of abortion and an anti-gay marriage amendment. Same old same old.

What interesting to me is hearing the arguments of the speakers. By-and-large, what I hear are tired old ways of being- one thing that stands out large is the class war that is apparent.

Conservatives talk about less government, and I have to wonder what they mean by that. After all, G.W. Bush's policy's have lead to a huge growth in government. It's a bait and switch tactic. This has been written about in a great book called What happened to Kansas.

Do we need less medicare? Less Social Security? I don't think so. In fact, it's what government isn't doing that is the issue.

For the first time in the history of our country, the majority of Americans believe that their children won't have- or be able to achieve- the same opportunities as their parents. What does this say? That programs like the GI Bill etc were a way for the middle class to become what it is today.

But there is nothing like that anymore. Are the days of great American's over? I wonder about that. Seems like we have become a nation of greed: get all that you can while you can. Your neighbor? He/she had better take care of him/herself.

When Ronald Reagan became president in 1981, America was the world's greatest creditor. When he left, the US owed money to everybody. So much for the party that says it wants less government.

Gennee

[matthewspeed]

First of all, I am for my gay rights. I do want the right to marry a man some day. But I have come to the realization that our federal government, Democrat or Republican will not legalize gay marriage on the federal level in my life time. It will continue to be up to the states. In spite of Bush being in office, we still have seen some states legalize civil unions and gay marriage. We will continue to fight state by state. This will not stop.

It is obvious that Obama has not had the experience over the years with foriegn affairs and war. John McCain knows the mentality of terrorists a hell of a lot more than Obama. Am I for torturing prisoners of war? No, but I don't feel it's necessary to give terrorists the same rights. I want a commander in cheif that won't be worried about an extremists rights. I want justice. And I feel McCain will do just that. He has a lot more experience and knowlege than Bush ever had!! As an American citizen, I want zero tolerance for terrorists, when they are captured. Plain and simple.

But as I said, no matter who is in office, I will fight for my gay rights. I may have to fight a bit harder with a Republican in the office, but I will fight. In the meantime, I will feel safer with McCain in office. I realize I will be cornered on this forum and I will not be popular with my ideals. I have restled with myself WANTING to vote for Obama/Biden. But I just can't.

We all have our convictions and I have to follow mine. If McCain is elected and things don't turn out as I had hoped, I will be the first to admit my mistake in voting for him, but until then, I have to do what I think is right. I voted for Bush, but I would definitely not vote for him again!! I am taking a risk, but I feel strongly about my decision. I want all on this forum to challenge me. I welcome your challenges. But I would hope you would take into consideration some of my thoughts.

I believe both McCain and Obama want what is best for this country. They are both men of high integrity and character. That has made it difficult for me to decide, but at this point in time, I have to side with McCain.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by matthewspeed

I am an independant.

Me too. I voted for McCain's reelection in 2004 bc of his then image as a maverick, and apparently a man of integrity. Since 2004, I have been nothing but sorry for casting that vote. He has reinvented himself these past 4 years in the image of precisely whatever Bush and that administration want him to be. This, after the way they trashed him, was it in 2000?

It's a false notion that McCain will be a Bush clone. How can that be when the Republican party originally did not want McCain due to his position as more of an independant? He, like Palin, will challenge his own party on issues that don't meet up to their own convictions.

I don't trust that. He has given in over and over again these past few years to precisely what the party and administration demand.

He first started alienating me when he supported the AZ marriage amendment a few years ago. I wasn't shocked, but I was irritated.
Within about a year of that time, the torture issue came up on the national scene. At first, he bucked Bush. I sent him a letter thanking him for standing up against torture, especially given how he understands from personal experience how dangerous it is for our troops if we encourage torture as a nation -- how easy would it then be for our attackers to follow suit?

Within days, suddenly McCain had flipped position and followed the party line, agreeing with Bush. He voted against prohibiting torture.
Given what he knows about the repercussions of what he did, that action was unforgiveable. I can never vote for him again.

To be candid, I was surprised McCain got the nomination. The far right did not trust him because of his maverick past image (to which they still cling as if it were still true). Yet, by pandering to Bush and being remade according to whatever the Bush administration wants him to be these past few years, he has alienated party moderates, and also the independents like me.

Which is his real face? If he gets in office, will the maverick rise from the ashes? Or will George Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, and James Dobson pull the strings to make him dance however they desire?

I heard that McCain wanted Joe Lieberman for VP. That he would lose the support of the religious evangelical base if he picked Lieberman, so he chose Palin reluctantly to court the Republican party's religious base. That doesn't sound like a man of conviction to me. It sounds like someone willing to cave at the drop of a pin just to make a personal political gain.

McCain has totally alienated me. I definitely don't trust him. If the base he has sold out his convictions for doesn't trust him either, that is extremely ironic. Given that he has alienated moderates AND evangelical conservatives alike, I was shocked he glided so easily into the nomination.

This post is starting to really ramble. Short point being: I don't trust him. Can't tell where the heck he stands anymore, and I don't want our highest executive office occupied by someone beholden to the same party administration that gave us the last 8 years.

This truely is the hardest presidential race for me to decide on.

I can respect that difficulty. To throw a further wrench into things, I really want you to know how much McCain has changed these past few years and become a Bush clone. It's not a myth. He has been a completely different politician since 2004. I'm his constituent - I know, I've been watching the transformation from a front row seat.

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by matthewspeed

I want a commander in cheif that won't be worried about an extremists rights. I want justice.

Wow.

But as I said, no matter who is in office, I will fight for my gay rights. I may have to fight a bit harder with a Republican in the office, but I will fight. In the meantime, I will feel safer with McCain in office.

The ten-year-olds who are just figuring out what makes them different can't wait.

In all sincerity, that's what drives me now. I'm not as worried about MY rights as I am for the rights and the lives of the kids who are going through the same shit I went through, and I know several, assuming my gaydar isn't faulty.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by matthewspeed

I realize she is not for gay rights, but I will say this, though not popular at all on this fourm, but there are other rights that can supercede our Gay rights. With out a strong America, we won't have a chance to fight for our rights.
Again, with out a safe nation, our rights will be non existent.

The safety for our nation is my first concern for this election, not my gay rights. First, lets keep our nation safe and then we can concentrate on rights for all people.

Can anyone provide me the correct name for who said the following (I believe it may have been Ben Franklin)?:

"People willing to give up liberty for safety deserve neither."

[u-dog]

Matthew,

If you vote for McCain you ARE voting for George Bush again. This is not just democratic rhetoric. We don't REALLY vote for individuals for the presidency in this country. We vote for ideological coalitions and power blocks. The ideological coalition of big business and social conservatism that brought you George Bush is trying to bring you John McCain. The John McCain of this RNC is not the John McCain of the 2000 election. He has tailored himself to be acceptable to the only conservative power coalition that can help him get elected. George Bush's agenda is THEIR agenda and it will be the agenda of a McCain administration. IT IS AN AGENDA THAT HAS FAILED AMERICA IN EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF OUR NATIONAL LIFE !!!! John McCaIN was, at one time, a maverick. He has given that up in order to get elected. John McCain is owned.

Obama is the candidate of a coalition of center/left interests which includes glbt interest groups, environmental concerns, Labor, and disenfranchised middle class voters.

You need to ask yourself as you decide what is right ... what aspects of the last 8 years do you want repeat? and WHY do you think a McCain administration would be any different?

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by matthewspeed

It is obvious that Obama has not had the experience over the years with foriegn affairs and war. John McCain knows the mentality of terrorists a hell of a lot more than Obama. Am I for torturing prisoners of war? No, but I don't feel it's necessary to give terrorists the same rights. I want a commander in cheif that won't be worried about an extremists rights. I want justice. And I feel McCain will do just that. He has a lot more experience and knowlege than Bush ever had!! As an American citizen, I want zero tolerance for terrorists, when they are captured. Plain and simple. .

There is something you need to know. The US has now given is executive branch the power to decide who is a terrorist, with OR WITHOUT evidence of any kind, and imprison them indefinitely without charge.

That means that IF the government were to decide that you were a terrorist (say, because you have the same name as someone else who made mysterious phone calls to suspicious persons overseas), they have the "right" to carry you off and torture you for years, and if your innocence is ever proven, they owe you no restitution.

That is the most severe danger I can imagine.

The problem is that we think our innocence can protect us and that only those who've done something wrong can be arrested. Neither is true.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Can anyone provide me the correct name for who said the following (I believe it may have been Ben Franklin)?:

"People willing to give up liberty for safety deserve neither."

It was INDEED Ben Franklin

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Can anyone provide me the correct name for who said the following (I believe it may have been Ben Franklin)?:

"People willing to give up liberty for safety deserve neither."

You're right, it was Ben Franklin. The full quote is "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by matthewspeed

In the meantime, I will feel safer with McCain in office.

I realize I will be cornered on this forum and I will not be popular with my ideals. I have restled with myself WANTING to vote for Obama/Biden. But I just can't.
.

Just now noticed this: that you said "I will *feel* safer."

I think that's the major persuasive point for their campaign, and I think a lot of us will (or are tempted to) vote for the ticket that will make us "feel" safer. But feeling safer is different from *being* safer. It's hard to buck a 'feeling.' Boy do I know. And so does the Bush/McCain party.

Speaking of which, you wrestle with "wanting" to vote Obama/Biden. That's fascinating. Why do you want to vote for them? Is it a feeling? A passing thought? Exactly what is that based on?

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

The problem is that we think our innocence can protect us and that only those who've done something wrong can be arrested. Neither is true.

You are SO RIGHT ZERBIE !!!

3800 people were killed on 9/11 and that was a terrible tragedy and an heinous crime ... But not worth shredding the constitution over.

Ten times that number are killed on the Highways EVERY SINGLE YEAR and we are not even willing to pass a national seatbelt law.

THe Bush administration (and the fascists who got him elected and who are supporting John McCain) are a FAR GREATER THREAT TO OUR SAFETY AND OUR LIBERTY

[ctozrn]

Not to mention that we are fighting a war in Iraq when like Obama said in his speech the other night Al Qaeda is in 80 countries! If Osama Bin Laden is in Pakistan and Afghanistan then why are we fighting this war in Iraq? Makes no sense exept for oil.

A vote for McCain is a vote for Bush. We need to get new faces in Washington who will actually go after the terrorists that we say that we are fighting!

Christine