hell

[Mia14]

Do you believe in hell?

[Emproph]

It's an extremely intersting topic and an Idea I think we all contend with.

[Lydia]

Yes, but I don't believe in an eternal hell.

[Daniel]

"Hell is other people" is the famous line from Jean Paul Sartre's play "No Exit".

JEAN Paul Sartre's No Exit was first performed at the Vieux-Colombier in May 1944, just before the liberation of Paris. Three characters, a man and two women, find themselves in hell, which for them is a living-room with Second Empire furniture. Each of the characters needs the other two in order to create some illusion about himself. Since existence, for Sartre, is the will to project oneself into the future--to create one's future--the opposite of existence, where man has no power to create his future, his hell. This is the meaning of the Sartrean hell in the morality play No Exit.

The most famous utterance in the play, made by Garcin, when he says that hell is other people, l'enfer, c'est les autres, is, in the briefest form possible, Sartre's definition of man's fundamental sin. When the picture a man has of himself is provided by those who see him, in the distorted image of himself that they give back to him, he has rejected what the philosopher has called reality. www.theatrehistory.com


If life is informed by art, then the art of Sartre has an interesting resonance with the goals of Soulforce. Those who do not have the means to be self-determined - GLBT persons of faith- and are not free from the condemnation of others experience a particular kind of hell. Not a hell in the afterlife, but a living hell.

I say hell no to that.

[Venari]

So far I think I am the only person who has voted yes. I believe there is a hell. But not the hell man has made it to be. You know the hell with all the fire and brimstone and demons torturing people.

To me hell is eternal for people who willingly reject God. And hell is much worse then anything people could come up with. But mostly after we die and we face God and know beyond a shadow of a doubt there is a truly Just and Loving God will we have an eternity in His presence or without it knowing we made that choice.

So I guess hell is having to live with the consequences of your choices with no way out but to face up to them in an eternity in Gods presence or and Eternity knowing there is a God but never knowing his presence again ... I guess an eternity without hope.

Just my rambling thoughts,
Venari

[themattperry]

Thoughts on traditional hell:

If hell is worse than the worst thing we can think of, can it possibly exist? For, if it is ever instantiated and availbale for observation or experience, I would then instantly be able to think of something worse (for example, the same thing, just twice as bad) The concept is not one that is available to my mind in any real way. It is nonsense. But even nonsense has a purpose: to generate fear.


That said, we all experience hell every day. We create our own hells. We find hells within us and in others. Just watch the news.

If you haven't heard it, I recommend listening to the stroy of Carleton Pearson, at one time Oral Robert's protege and an extremely prominent evangelical pastor. One day he woke up and realized his idea of hell didn't make any sense and actually turned the loving, living God into a cruel torturer. This changed everything for him. He is featured on an episode of NPR's This American Life. Free to download at:

www.thislife.org

Look for the December 16, 2005 episode. It also concerns his relationship to the glbt community. Extremely moving.

[Dash]

Years ago I was working through Dante's trilogy. When I got to "Purgatorio", I had a very strong reaction which immediately informed my belief about hell. At the time, I was in so much internal pain...questioning, doubting...self-hating...that the idea then of being consigned to some eternal--or even temporary-- post-corporeal punishment seemed ridiculously redundant.

In short...my life was already hell. So, hell now...followed by hell then...don't believe it.

I believe the Divine Spirit functions in the direction of bringing humanity out of our hell...that vast river flows only one direction...back to it's source.

[awediot]

I believe that we can ultimately, conclusively and with eyes wide open, still reject what God has to offer us. The 'harsh' realities of heaven and 'brutal' honesty it may require, simply may not be ones cup of tea. If we fight against God and all His efforts, refusing His help and guidance, He eventually concedes and lets you go, into all that is left without Him, into what you have demanded. God is defeated by the triumphant damned. He sends no one away and it is the self imposition that consumes, not any sadistic delight in punishnent... He just leaves you alone as requested. If that is hell, then I would answer yes...No one is dragged to His side.


Life is hell? ...I can escape life.

Check out Lewis' The Great Divorce, a piercing fable about a bus full of tourists visiting Heaven, where they are more than welcome to stay if they choose... It is a twist that hits too close to home at times and adds a dimension to free will that is hard to shake.

[Lydia]

Originally Posted by Dash

In short...my life was already hell. So, hell now...followed by hell then...don't believe it.

So what do you think happens to us after we die, Dash? Heaven for everyone? Do we cease to exist? Are we reincarnated?

Just trying to get a feel for your beliefs.

[Dash]

Well, first of all, I believe we ARE. There isn't really as much of a difference between existence here and "there". Death is just a change of attire...perhaps an un-shading of our eyes...a step back into the garden.

(The way is guarded by a terrible angel with a flaming sword...and we are meant to hesitate at that gate, but that is where the Divine Spirit intends for us to be.)

The literary concepts of Heaven and Hell seem to me to have developed solely as methods of goading and luring humanity into good behavior. Since I believe it is mercenary to be led by my belly and slavish to be chased by the whip into virtue, I shun both images (heaven & hell) as distractions. Or said differently...I choose to be good regardless of whether I am offered heaven or hell. So both "salvation" and "damnation" (as commonly viewed) are somewhat frivolous suppositions to me.

I believe that we are in the process of co-creating ourselves with the Divine Spirit. We are given this beautiful opportunity to shape our own being. When the wrapping comes off...when the mold is shattered...when the curtain drawn away, we shall see how all our work has turned out...a marvel how the fingers of God helped shape our clay.

Some are lesser vessels, some greater...some are designed for very particular usage...some perhaps ornamental... We'll see...

I'm also influenced by Science which taught me that nothing is made or destroyed, but only transformed. There is constancy in the volume of all that is. So I don't believe that souls are destroyed utterly and it seems wasteful to keep a prison for eternity. I believe in the transforming power of Christ which goes far beyond what we can conceive.

I don't believe that we have all the facts just yet, and I don't know what choices any soul, however seemingly heinous and reprehensible their earthly acts may seem, will make when Love comes striding majestically up to greet us at that gate. It's not inconceivable to me that even the "Hitlers" of the world will immediately see the idiocy of their behavior; or even that all of us together might share great gut-shaking guffaws of laughter at the foolishness that marked our childhood.

Here's a beautiful book, if you haven't already read it: Till We Have Faces: A Myth Retold by C. S. Lewis.

[schoolboi]

I believe it is often helpful to find out what something is not before defining what it is.

I have often heard people define hell as separation from God. That sounds good at first glance, the problem is that separation from God is impossible.

Psalms 139:8 "If I make my bed in hell you are there."

If nothing can separate us from the love of God, and God is love, then nothing can separate us from God. Not even sin.

Our concept of God is limited because our concepts of time and space are limited. God is truly "all in all". Nothing can exist outside of God, because God is truly all there is. I am not talking about pantheism. I am just saying if God is not there, then there is not there. Therefore nothing can be separate from God.

This does not say much about what hell is, but it does say a lot about what hell defiantly is not. Hell is not and cannot be separation from God.

[Venari]

To elucidate my point, it is not a separation from God but the absence of His Spirit.

[awediot]

...and mine as well, as it seems to hinge on this seperation...

I would ask, what if ultimately one does not want the love of God, or in other words, one is unwilling to bend to the superiority of God and assume the natural and necessary role of second fiddle? (original sin?) Can such a rebelliousness even exist in the face of Truth, or will this naked Truth burn away the capacity to prefer the self? I think if such an ego is possible, it would rather burn away into nothingness than to follow its impulse to fall on its face in humble worship. I feel free will must be allowed to conclude, even to the point of God allowing Its children to give up existing at all, and go to the one place where God indeed, is not.

[Mia14]

I do not believe in hell. I don't think any loving divine parent would be able to banish children into a horrible place for eternity no matter what the children may do. It simply doesn't fit with my belief of a loving and all-forgiving God.

[Daniel]

Sometimes I think of this:

We live in a world of phenomina- up and down- white and black- good and bad- light and dark- evil and good- male and female.

I wonder if hell isn't simply the gap between all things. The abyss we fall into thinking that everything is as it seems to be. Separate.

How can we concieve of One when all we see is two?

Is that heaven?

One?

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Mia14

I do not believe in hell. I don't think any loving divine parent would be able to banish children into a horrible place for eternity no matter what the children may do. It simply doesn't fit with my belief of a loving and all-forgiving God.

Is this imposing your view on to the issue? That is to say you have an ideal of what God is and that He may do something contrary to that ideal is what you take issue with.

But life is like that in many ways; we have what we want and how things are ... which are often in conflict. As children our parents often did things that seemed harsh and hurtful and we did not understand them ... how much so is it with God?

-Venari

[Jennifer5]

I do not believe in hell. I don't think any loving divine parent would be able to banish children into a horrible place for eternity no matter what the children may do. It simply doesn't fit with my belief of a loving and all-forgiving God.

I don't think I could put my opinion any better.... I would say prefectly said in my mind

[Mia14]

Originally Posted by Venari

Is this imposing your view on to the issue? That is to say you have an ideal of what God is and that He may do something contrary to that ideal is what you take issue with.

But life is like that in many ways; we have what we want and how things are ... which are often in conflict. As children our parents often did things that seemed harsh and hurtful and we did not understand them ... how much so is it with God?

-Venari

I agree that sometimes parents do things that their children may not always see as kind and that often show to be in our own best interest. I don't think that a divine parent would send souls to hell, though. I can understand temporary pains our God may put us through in order tobetter us alter on, but I don't think hell, with no end, would be one of those learning situations.

It's always possible that I'm wrong, especially in this case where nobody truly knows until we're past the sharing opportunity. *shrug* This is where I stand.

[awediot]

It is a tough subject... One thing to ponder on, if I may suggest; --God does not send anyone to Hell. To some, it may just be preferable to the demands of a restored existance... It has been said that Hell is locked from the inside. The tenants may be damned proud of it...

[pnggrad79]

I believe in a God whose love for me and willingness to save me was planned before the universe as we know it existed, i.e from the foundations of the earth. I also believe that when Christ died, I died with him. He not only took my sins to Calvary, he took me as well. I think a person doesn't need to admit he is a sinner to be saved. Salvation is a recognition of what Christ has already done for us. Having said that-I believe we had to be saved from something, or else Christ's sacrifice was meaningless. Ultimately, God's whole purpose and design was to bring His creation back into communion with Him, and Christ was the agent. The Bible is filled with example upon example of people who rejected God and the consequences for such rejection.

Now what happened to them, I am not sure of. I know the Bible says there is a hell, but I don't know if it is metaphorical, or if it is literal. I know we needed to be saved from something-maybe a life that doesn't have God in it. I don't want to belittle the importance of Christ's work on the cross, because it is so great a sacrifice. If we don't accept the life that God intends for us to have, then what is the result? A life apart from the blessings of God? yes, definitely, and all that that implies.

Christ's death was so pivotal, because he changed everything for us. He conquered death and hell. I don't know if hell was different before the Cross than now or not. If Christ conquered it, then is it still the same as what existed in the Old Covenant? It would seem that it wouldn't be. The theme of Jesus' life and God's grace shown to us, would not seem to include the concept of a fiery hell, however, I do think that if we choose not to accept Christ's sacrifice on the cross, we create for ourselves a life without God and that is hell. Maybe after death, our spirit continues to live with those choices. I don't know. I would rather focus on Christ's redeeming work in my life and what that means for me after death, we will see.