Dismantling Heterosexual Privilege

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by Eugene

Yes, well we could start another argument there. I'm a white, male Southerner, and I'm growing weary of the "white privilege" charge. So I just tune it out. I expect that's what most heterosexuals will do when you start telling them they're privileged.

Oh, can I tell you how many white men tell me they're tired of hearing this. But they do nothing to examine the reality of white skin privilige, and to commit themselves to working against it. You just let the cat out of the bag as to the depth of racism that resides in you.

That's not to say that racism doesn't reside in all of us, but some of us, make it a point to do everything to dismantle white skin privilige and others, like you "grow tired."

[Eugene]

You just let the cat out of the bag as to the depth of racism that resides in you.

Ah, well. At least if I were racist -- which I'm not, notwithstanding your statement of prejudice against my demographic -- at least I'd be a gay racist, so I'm 50% ahead of the game. I would only need to dismantle my white skin privilege. No need to dismantle heterosexual privilege.

Of course, if we consider that I'm male, perhaps I'm only 33% ahead.

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by Eugene

Ah, well. At least if I were racist -- which I'm not, notwithstanding your statement of prejudice against my demographic -- at least I'd be a gay racist, so I'm 50% ahead of the game. I would only need to dismantle my white skin privilege. No need to dismantle heterosexual privilege.

Of course, if we consider that I'm male, perhaps I'm only 33% ahead.

"I don't have to hate any person of color. I don't ever have to use the N-word. I can feel totally kindly toward people of color. The fact is, the world is set up to benefit me as a white man. And all I have to do is put my feet on the floor in the morning and I reap the benefits of that. So unless I am actively working to dismantle the system that rewards white people, then I am still racist. And the same for sexism, and able-ism, and so on."

+Gene Robinson

[Zerbie]

We're not getting anywhere.

Kara has a good point. Society is unjust. I agree with her that it should be more just.

But I also agree, to an extent, with Eugene, that OUR willingness to put ourselves forward and work to change ourselves, expand our awareness, and put forth effort towards making a more just society does not obligate any one else to step forward and take on the same tasks. Like Kara, I would prefer for more people to do so, but I draw the line at demanding it from them.

To my understanding, demands create resistance. But asking?? Voicing a request is something different.
To confront someone who is unaware of heterocentrism with a demand that they face it is risky, you risk losing that person, because many people will respond to a judgmental confrontation, laden with implications that they are on the moral low-ground, by pulling away. Heck, I would!

Rather, from an activist standpoint, I would address this from an issue of offering my experiences and insights as perspectives those persons haven't heard from before. I would offer them in terms of "I" statements, so that instead of saying something like, "You don't know how privileged you are, you really need to dismantle your privilege," I might say something like "Do you know what it feels like to me when you and your spouse are automatically given X, while my spouse and I have been fighting for 15 years only we still can't get XYZ? It makes me feel (fill in the blank.)"

I imagine this is the sort of thing you've already been doing, Kara. But I think the question now becomes whether you prefer to risk the friendship to make your points more forcefully, or whether in this case the friendship means more to you than making your point. It's simply a question of your priority, and if this man has been cold and distant on the subject for so long, then perhaps it's not a friendship you care to preserve on those terms. Even that I would put in specific, personal terms, rather than abstract ones. Tell him how it makes you FEEL when he doesn't respond, rather than talking in abstracts about concepts like privilege. My suspicion is that if he will be moved at all, it will be by your feelings, not by abstract concepts.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Matt Algren

"I don't have to hate any person of color. I don't ever have to use the N-word. I can feel totally kindly toward people of color. The fact is, the world is set up to benefit me as a white man. And all I have to do is put my feet on the floor in the morning and I reap the benefits of that. So unless I am actively working to dismantle the system that rewards white people, then I am still racist. And the same for sexism, and able-ism, and so on."

+Gene Robinson

I disagree and vehemently!
By this definition, just trying to live makes everyone an asshole. If this is the kind of thing we're supposed to believe, then given the scope of inequities in our society, then we're all assholes all the time because we aren't saving everyone and everything. Which, frankly, is so overwhelming my response is "F--- you. That's too much to even TRY to do, so why am I bothering," and I would respond with Overwhelm. I would lose confidence and crawl into a paralyzed ball. I would lose faith that the small things I CAN do are going to have any impact at all, and I would retire into blaming everyone ELSE for the situation, since, after all, you are the ones who made things this way, I was simply born into it and now *I* am helpless to do anything about it. So why try?

One simply CANNOT afford to look at it this way. We MUST believe in ourselves, and that means believing in our goodness, believing in our power to create justice, compassion, a society of abundance and sharing. We cannot believe that just by waking in the morning we have committed an injustice. That defeats us even before we take breath.

If we believe that by breathing, by waking, by standing up in the morning we create loving kindness, justice, fairness, our actions will exhibit those qualities. Our actions will demonstrate our beliefs. The moment I believe I am part of injustice just by existing is the moment I give up on you and resentfully live for myself alone.

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

I disagree and vehemently!
By this definition, just trying to live makes everyone an asshole. If this is the kind of thing we're supposed to believe, then given the scope of inequities in our society, then we're all assholes all the time because we aren't saving everyone and everything. Which, frankly, is so overwhelming my response is "F--- you. That's too much to even TRY to do, so why am I bothering," and I would respond with Overwhelm. I would lose confidence and crawl into a paralyzed ball. I would lose faith that the small things I CAN do are going to have any impact at all, and I would retire into blaming everyone ELSE for the situation, since, after all, you are the ones who made things this way, I was simply born into it and now *I* am helpless to do anything about it. So why try?

One simply CANNOT afford to look at it this way. We MUST believe in ourselves, and that means believing in our goodness, believing in our power to create justice, compassion, a society of abundance and sharing. We cannot believe that just by waking in the morning we have committed an injustice. That defeats us even before we take breath.

If we believe that by breathing, by waking, by standing up in the morning we create loving kindness, justice, fairness, our actions will exhibit those qualities. Our actions will demonstrate our beliefs. The moment I believe I am part of injustice just by existing is the moment I give up on you and resentfully live for myself alone.

When I drive to work in the morning, I don't have to worry that I'll be pulled over because my car is too nice for someone of my ethnicity in a certain part of town.

When I walk down the hall, I don't have to worry about some creepy old businessman smacking my ass as i walk by.

When I go to the grocery store, I don't have to worry about people looking at me funny because I have a Mexican accent.

I get a higher salary than the woman who works the same job not because I asked for it, but because it was given me freely, probably without either of us knowing about the disparity.

The bottom line is that I benefit from racism, sexism, and other -isms without asking or working for any of them. It's the nature of the system.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by Matt Algren

When I drive to work in the morning, I don't have to worry that I'll be pulled over because my car is too nice for someone of my ethnicity in a certain part of town.

When I walk down the hall, I don't have to worry about some creepy old businessman smacking my ass as i walk by.

When I go to the grocery store, I don't have to worry about people looking at me funny because I have a Mexican accent.

I get a higher salary than the woman who works the same job not because I asked for it, but because it was given me freely, probably without either of us knowing about the disparity.

The bottom line is that I benefit from racism, sexism, and other -isms without asking or working for any of them. It's the nature of the system.

I'm with you Matt, there are all sorts of invisible privileges that we experience simply because we're white, middle class people. And I do believe it's absolutely necessary to be aware of those privileges.

And whenever I hear someone say they aren't racist to me it's a sure sign that they have never examined the system we live in, or their own prejudices. I know the areas that I struggle with in terms of making assumptions about people because of their race, or education and it is a constant struggle for me.

Somehow, black folks were never someone I felt superior to. But I remember disliking Puerto Ricans for a while, until I spent a month in Puerto Rico and fell in love with the culture.

I don't always understand the where's and whys of it all, but I know that I seem to have problems with Chinese, though not Japanese or Vienamese. I also have in the past struggled around my attitudes towards Islamic men (which I understand has a lot to do with cultural differences). That's why I say we all have our own racial prejudices, that we struggle with.

Years ago, when we interviewed people for our commune, if a man said that he had no problems with women's liberation, that was a sure sign to us that he didn't have a clue.

So, for those who are committed to justice, we acknowledge our struggles and work toward overcoming them. But denying that it exists is NOT AN OPTION.

Kara

[BruceChris]

I like this part of what Zerbie said best:

Originally Posted by ZERBIE

One simply CANNOT afford to look at it this way. We MUST believe in ourselves, and that means believing in our goodness, believing in our power to create justice, compassion, a society of abundance and sharing. We cannot believe that just by waking in the morning we have committed an injustice. That defeats us even before we take breath.

If we believe that by breathing, by waking, by standing up in the morning we create loving kindness, justice, fairness, our actions will exhibit those qualities. Our actions will demonstrate our beliefs. The moment I believe I am part of injustice just by existing is the moment I give up on you and resentfully live for myself alone.

And that's on a good day

Matt, my church has declared itself to be Open and Affirming (Accepting of gays), Just Peace (Anti War), and anti-racist, but there arn't often all of that many ways that to bring these things out into the world.

To use just one of your examples when you say "When I drive to work in the morning, I don't have to worry that I'll be pulled over because my car is too nice for someone of my ethnicity in a certain part of town."

Now let me be a bit blunt here. When someone is unfairly pulled over one time, or ten times, or a hundred times, (and while these are things that members of my church try to work against), it doesn't put gas in my tank, or get me a better job, or get me any job, for that matter. When it comes to white privilege, I don't seem to have learned how to use it. Whether I "have" it or not to me becomes an exceedingly academic no, irrelevant question

Bruce Chris

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by kara

And whenever I hear someone say they aren't racist to me it's a sure sign that they have never examined the system we live in, or their own prejudices.

Kara,

I understand where you're coming from here because sometimes when people say "I'm not racist, but....." the very next thing that comes out of their mouth is something racist.

But I'm not sure I totally agree that it's always the case.

I can honestly say that I have never had a problem with Jews. Never. In fact, I've never understood people who do have a problem with Jews. I don't get it. Jews seem like regular people to me.

But, I'm not especially proud to admit that I do have a problem with Republicans.

Rick

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Matt Algren

When I drive to work in the morning, I don't have to worry that I'll be pulled over because my car is too nice for someone of my ethnicity in a certain part of town.

When I walk down the hall, I don't have to worry about some creepy old businessman smacking my ass as i walk by.

When I go to the grocery store, I don't have to worry about people looking at me funny because I have a Mexican accent.

I get a higher salary than the woman who works the same job not because I asked for it, but because it was given me freely, probably without either of us knowing about the disparity.

The bottom line is that I benefit from racism, sexism, and other -isms without asking or working for any of them. It's the nature of the system.

Duh. But it doesn't make you a bad person. You are not responsible for the entirety of the system. You are responsible for what you CAN impact.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

So, for those who are committed to justice, we acknowledge our struggles and work toward overcoming them. But denying that it exists is NOT AN OPTION.

There will always be some in our society who care little about justice except when it comes to justice for themselves. But I think we humans as a whole will continue to examine why we believe and behave the way we do. It is part of our evolutionary process. Our brains will always ask, "Why do we do this? Why do we think this way? Is this reasonable?"

Neuroscience is making huge advances in the study of how our brains work and how we process thoughts. This will help us to understand why our subconscious sometimes automatically directs our conscious thoughts and behavior.

Several years ago I became angry when the men of the city's sanitation department walked across my lawn to collect the next door neighbor's garbage. Why couldn't they walk down the driveway and stay off my lawn? I became so angry that I called the city and complained about it. The men who were doing this happened to be African American and they were doing no damage to my grass.

Then I began to examine why I was so upset about these men walking across my lawn. I asked myself, if the men were white, would I be as upset? The answer I got was; maybe not so much.

Then I asked myself if the men walking across my lawn to collect the neighbor's garbage were not just white, but muscular and good-looking. Would I be angry? The answer to that was; absolutely not.

My subconscious had automatically judged these sanitation workers without me even being consciously aware of it. That automatic judgment caused me to be angry for no good reason.

Rick

[Zerbie]

Fascinating story, Rick. I believe many people would rather close their perception to discovering such things about themselves to protect their ego concept rather than notice there was an issue and start to change it. Ultimately, it will be healthier for you not to be angry, and in this way we see that being willing to see there was an issue there was to your own benefit.

Originally Posted by Rick336

There will always be some in our society who care little about justice except when it comes to justice for themselves.

Rick

Yes. We see plenty of this. It is sad.

There are a few underlying threads to this conversation that need to be pulled up on top, because we're all assuming a certain basis to the conversation, and several of us are assuming a different basis.

1. awareness. That is what I see Matt and Kara calling out about. It is what you just illustrated so well in your story, Rick. Too many people are unaware of the inequities. I'll bet there are plenty of white people who don't even notice that stuff about racial profiling by cops while driving.
That has to come first. First we have to become aware that there are discrepancies in how people are received, treated, and responded-to, before anything can change.

2. assuming awareness (which is the basis from which I have been speaking, ASSUMING that everyone I'm talking to on this thread is aware that our US society is racist as well as heterosexist.)
If we assume awareness, then the question becomes "How can I contribute to a more just world?" Just asking the question is the beginning of contributing to a more just world. If you are always asking 'how do I generate justice?' you will see when you have opportunities to do so and you will use those opportunities to generate justice.
But if the question asked is "CAN I contribute to a more just world?" Or worse, if it is phrased as an answer "Just by putting on shoes and stepping out my door in the morning I participate in racism," then that is defeating. You have defeated justice from the very beginning by believing that your very existence is problematic. Your existence must be the solution, NOT the problem.

3. Faith in oneself versus self-protective, defensive thought.
This is a critical distinction. One includes awareness and the capacity to move outside of a limited hierarchical 'system.' The other excludes awareness and imprisons us in that system.

We MUST have faith in ourselves. If we have faith in our essential goodness, if we trust that we must and WILL move towards justice, we will have courage to expand our awareness and face the problems. We will be increasing in our wisdom of how best to respond to inequities and injustice all the time.

If we haven't got the courage to face the problems, or if we believe they are insurmountable, we will retreat to protect ourselves (so we think!) with defensive thoughts like, "Well, I'M not racist!" and perhaps we'll withdraw from facing the fact that society IS racist (heterosexist, etc). We will be so occupied protecting the self-concept that we will not even SEE the times when we have choices to play into the system, or to live beyond it into a more just way of living. Because we don't see it, we are trapped in it. Which brings us back to the necessity of #1, awareness. But awareness by itself is only one part of the whole recipe. We need faith in ourselves. The problem is great. We ourselves must be greater.

[BruceChris]

Zerbie, sometimes good things can happen if we are willing to reach out, and take some risk, and try to be sensitive.

And sometimes it's better just knowing when to stay out of something that I may not be able to contribute to.

BC

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by BruceChris

Zerbie, sometimes good things can happen if we are willing to reach out, and take some risk, and try to be sensitive.

And sometimes it's better just knowing when to stay out of something that I may not be able to contribute to.

BC

Never mind.

[Eugene]

So unless I am actively working to dismantle the system that rewards white people, then I am still racist.

Thanks, but I turned from self-loathing when I came out as a gay man. I'm not going to re-enter it because I'm a gay WHITE man. I am what I am, and I don't owe anybody an apology or penance for being what I am.

[Zerbie]

Okay, there is another way of interpreting Robinson's remark that I have just thought of. My initial, and strong, response, was that it was one of negative judgment against oneself just for being. It still contains a strong, strong taste of negativity. It can totally be seen as 'self loathing' as Eugene says.

But what is Robinson's definition of 'actively working?' Unless the definition is very broad it absolutely cripples us all before we've even begun to live. There is NO WAY one can actively work in advocacy organizations, social movements, etc for ALL the isms at once. Which would then leave the thousands whose entire lives are dedicated to the service of a better world for all just a bunch of assholes for still being either racist, or heterocentric, or not shopping 100% cruelty free, or, or, or. . . it is IMPOSSIBLE to tackle it all. We can only do what we can do.

Hence, unless Robinson's definition is very very broad, I still maintain he is missing something quite critical, and that is that one MUST have faith in oneself first. Only if we believe our existence is GOOD will we be truly successful in 'doing' good. We will give out to the world whatever quality is in us. We must NOT do the right thing out of guilt! We must do it Because It Is Right.

And remember that for most of us, our opportunities to move the world towards justice, though many, will be small. Have confidence that the small deeds are what create great ones over time.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Fascinating story, Rick. I believe many people would rather close their perception to discovering such things about themselves to protect their ego concept rather than notice there was an issue and start to change it. Ultimately, it will be healthier for you not to be angry, and in this way we see that being willing to see there was an issue there was to your own benefit.

I never thought I had any racist thoughts at all. I always considered myself to be very open-minded and accepting of all races and cultures. It wasn't until this incident happened that I realized that there were racist thoughts hiding deep in my subconscious. What brought it to the surface of my consciousness is the fact that the subject of racism is part of the national conversation.

And I think this is the point that Kara is trying to make about heterosexism. It needs to be part of our national conversation so that we can acknowledge it's existence and examine it.

Rick

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by BruceChris

I like this part of what Zerbie said best:


And that's on a good day

Matt, my church has declared itself to be Open and Affirming (Accepting of gays), Just Peace (Anti War), and anti-racist, but there arn't often all of that many ways that to bring these things out into the world.

To use just one of your examples when you say "When I drive to work in the morning, I don't have to worry that I'll be pulled over because my car is too nice for someone of my ethnicity in a certain part of town."

Now let me be a bit blunt here. When someone is unfairly pulled over one time, or ten times, or a hundred times, (and while these are things that members of my church try to work against), it doesn't put gas in my tank, or get me a better job, or get me any job, for that matter. When it comes to white privilege, I don't seem to have learned how to use it. Whether I "have" it or not to me becomes an exceedingly academic no, irrelevant question

Bruce Chris

Inequality happens not just when something is added to one side, but also when it is subtracted from the other.

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by Eugene

Thanks, but I turned from self-loathing when I came out as a gay man. I'm not going to re-enter it because I'm a gay WHITE man. I am what I am, and I don't owe anybody an apology or penance for being what I am.

How does acknowledging systemic racism make you self-loathing? That's a weird leap to make. And who said anything about apologies or penance?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Matt Algren

"I don't have to hate any person of color. I don't ever have to use the N-word. I can feel totally kindly toward people of color. The fact is, the world is set up to benefit me as a white man. And all I have to do is put my feet on the floor in the morning and I reap the benefits of that. So unless I am actively working to dismantle the system that rewards white people, then I am still racist. And the same for sexism, and able-ism, and so on."

+Gene Robinson

If we lived in South Africa right now, and were 25, would we see things a bit differently?

Watched a news item last night on World Focus (PBS) which was about integration and how younger people in South Africa experience the world very differently than their grandparents. Their school system really is integrated in a way that ours is not. What will that mean for their future and white privilege?

To say the the 'world' is set up a certain way is to describe one's world, not everyone's world. Places like South Africa may be harbingers of what is possible, even though Western societies may think themselves superior.

I'm very curious as to what South African society will be like in 20 years, when young people will be running the country. If any country has a chance of getting it right, they are. Their consititution also supports equal rights for gay people. Coincidence?

Of course, I don't suppose that I what I am talking about. But it does raise the matter of perspective, does it not?