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#1
05-05-2006, 04:52 PM
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X-Ex-ecks Gay Response
Crazy mad beatific planet we share...
This so does and doesn't apply to many of the current happenings, and its been like, 16 hours since seeing my name on an inane new thread, the voices in my head need appeased... After a long night and up not bright, but early,, did a quick SF screen and found an surprising, flip side and "illegal" post from one exgay-biz in the "Change is Possible" thread. I had seen the eye catching, out of place name a few days ago, it disappeared and didn't think much about it. The message was what you'd expect--- we don't HAVE to be this way, no fornicators, idolaters, sodomites in my heaven--- and other up-lifting stuff. It was a perfect, rare example of what is an outright, broken rule, cut off in its tracks, sacharrine attack... ( X-gay ministries and counseling have only affected me at a distance. I can see them as I can see organized (anti-non-) religion, a mixed bag. Collectively dangerous, personally a light at the end of the tunnel... but God has done odder things than switch someone's preferences back...read on). So, out of curiousity, I linked to the site ... came back, and Badda Boom, the post was gone... Guess Jamie's not kidding (thanks BTW) I stewed about the site for a bit and e-mailed them the following letter, warts and all... To whom it may concern, I did not catch your name, but I did your short lived words this morning on SoulForce... I am just a member there and speak for only myself. I of course have some disagreements with them, but they do more good than damage and have my support. Their policy of disallowing ex-gay ministries, or what they deem to be hate-speech to remain on the forum, has made me at times doubt their general capacity to stand their ground in the face of real criticism, and feels a bit over-protective of the abused, but adult spirits there. Their reasoning, as I understand it, is they feel homosexuals have endured enough demeaning attacks, unfair loss and confounding threats of damnation, and they wish to create a supportive, loving and intelligent place to interact, learn, teach and grow in peace. I would have been one of the few who would have defended your right to speak your mind, and challenge the sometimes placid comfort zone that can dull the site. Before your post was removed, I had a chance to link to this site. I did so open mindedly, out of curiosity and ignorance as to some of the thoughts behind such x-gay theories. I appreciate the opportunity and your honesty... For some honesty in return, I am sorry to say, it breaks my heart to see such a desperate, time wasting effort on such a trivial matter. I read some of what you wish to say, and can even agree with aspects of it, but the permeating dread revealed at the slightest hint you may have to think for yourself, makes it all rote, common and draining. The gist of the first few ideas is proven indicative of the redundancy and absolute dependency on the Bible. I perhaps unfairly did not bother to trace your personal story. This being where it has lead is enough for me. It is the thicket of betrayed fears and mirrored, critical hopes bouncing around to nowhere that I remember from my childhood. It is a stone cold cage for God, locked with a love that must be verified, analyzed, sanctified and conserved, to be selectively measured out, then finally FELT for specific reasons, at proper times... I am the one you wish to reach, and nothing welcomes me in. I am what you seem to believe can not exist. I am a saved, Christian soul whose desperate, suicidal prayers to change, or just die, were answered with a resounding, loving and unalterable "No". And then an apology. The deadening weight and self-hatred of those born to be Damned are placed there by the world, not by God. I believe the Word of God is there to lead to SOMEWHERE and remains as the ground to be fallen back on. You have made it the destination, not the source from which we are to grow from. If you have been lead by God, and not the world posing as God, to change your mind about who you are meant to be with, that is a wonderful, complex mystery and you have my best of wishes and prayer. I and many like me have not heard or felt any need of such a change. We believe we have been given a genuine and blessed ability to incorporate, comprehend and magnify the truth beyond mere gilded ink and paper. We are not the ones feeding pain and fear and a resented hatred of our Maker. I feel I will have much less to answer for than many of those who think they know so well how to help me. There are some involved with SoulForce who are not as comfortable and assured as I, and I understand better now the well considered reasons for censoring certain wolf in sheep's clothing points of view. There are both far too vulnerable, and still lifetimes beyond most insights you may have to offer... I wish you well on your journey and pray it can find a more productive and Christlike purpose than trying to change us. Sincerely, Dean (Blahblahla) Fri. May 5th, 2006 ...the Vio/nonVio, Left and Right hands had a little thumb war over this one.... However it left Mr. X-ex-gay-biz feeling, its said and done.   .... to Jamie and the staff here, you continue to earn my respect in ways I don't expect and despite my efforts to think I know it all... your intelligent protection won a new fan.
__________________
shamelessselfpromotion Last edited by awediot; 05-05-2006 at 05:03 PM. 
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#2
05-05-2006, 05:57 PM
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Wow - why did I just browse through most of the articles on that site?
 Depressing. What I cannot understand is how did we (talkin' about the whole society now) come to this? What a mess. I feel sad for having read that stuff. That site trots out the old, long-since debunked statistics of Paul Cameron, who was discredited professionally HOW long ago now? ('bout 23 years?) And one article points the blame in part at gay activists for Matthew Shephard's murder (I forget how the author arrived at that logic). If they really wanted to help folks, they wouldn't litter the site with insults and value judgments like "it's a disgusting lifestyle". How many times could they squeeze those words in? As for fearing for souls, I fear for the soul of anyone who hates himself. The thought of where such self-hatred can lead a person leaves me cold with fear. And *that* is why I advocate so fiercely counter to stuff like Mr. Ex Gay Biz' site. (I edited this because I really do know the difference between adverbs and adjectives.)
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#3
05-05-2006, 06:59 PM
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Zerbie, you've hit the nail squarely on the head.
Jesus (and countless others) have said that we should love each other as we love ourselves. I believe what was meant is that we need to constantly work on learning how to love ourselves, as well as each other.
I cannot be a whole person, or at peace with myself unless I can love myself and other people. To the extent that I fail at either, my life is not going to work. (First person singular just makes this easier to express. "I" means all of us.)
__________________
"Christianity is not about what you believe, it is about how you treat other people; - with God's love"
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#4
05-05-2006, 11:43 PM
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Excellent point!
A book I read years ago, and one of my favorites called "living in the light" expresses this idea that people are your mirror. How you see and treat yourself is how others will see and treat you. If you lie to yourself, others will lie to you. If you treat yourself as unimportant, others will see and treat you as unimportant....etc... On the other hand.... If you love yourself, others will love you. If you are honest with you (can imagine what I mean by that /sarcasm) others will be honest with you. When you live your life honestly, and truly with yourself....others will treat you honestly and truly..... Martin Luther King taught in his sermons and nonviolence traiings about the beloved community. The first thing he always taught is that the beloved community starts with YOU!
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#5
05-06-2006, 01:49 AM
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you sure?
Quote:
Quote:
 Or so I've been told... dunno tho, think thats an ironic way you keep so sweet. Hate to say keep it up, but it feels like your empathy --Kinda a bummer-- Just be sure to keep some reparative fear for mr. X himself....and BruceChris, I have often wondered when and how that works from the inside out, or the outside in. Nothing is better at making one like themselves more than a dose of love from someone. I have also noticed when I'm particularly pleased with myself, being full of myself isn't far behind, and that just shuts people out (here it comes now). I usually love others more than myself. Quote:
Geesh, sorry to be so contrary. Can't help it sometimes... Just trying to live life honestly and be true to myself...
__________________
shamelessselfpromotion
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#6
05-06-2006, 01:07 PM
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wowzers...
*Links go to parts of that site which are sure to offend some people. They do not reflect my feelings and I do not wish to offend anyone by including them, so please don't click the links unless you're prepared to read offensive material*
It's interesting to note that there are references to our site, Soulforce, on theirs! GREAT!! WE"RE BEING HEARD!! Some things they've said are pretty nasty, so if you're not in a place for harsh criticism, avoid it. They posted the text from SF on his site as well, which I find interesting because I think it makes him look a bit silly. I'm also incredibly offended by the article saying that Muslims can't be good Americans. I'm not Muslim myself, but this discrimination is the cherry on top of their homophobic sundae. I am truly appalled. It's also pretty low that they included text such as "sexual orientation" to almost blend into the background - this makes people doing searches on google or similar search engines find that page when they search for those terms. Perhaps the only thing encouraging is the number on the counters of many pages - they're low. The site posts what they claim to be his SF post. I'm not sure if it is verbatum the actual post (maybe he edited afterwards, I wouldn't know), but I can see why it was removed. It's not the fact that he's ex-gay that would bother me - people have their own beliefs and if he's happy, I'm happy for him. What would have bothered me is when he applies his situation to other people's and says things like "I wasn't born gay and neither were you". That offends me because I feel as though he is judging me and every other gay person without meeting or knowing any one of us. Jaime made a good point when he pointed out the difference between homosexuality and promiscuity. I, too, am homosexual, but not at all promiscuous - I live a monogamous life. I'm not sure what else to say. I'm trying to be nonviolent and not to offend anyone, but this site has stirred some things up... I need to calm myself to be a better-spoken ally today.
__________________
No government has the right to tell its citizens when or whom to love. The only queer people are those who don't love anybody. - Rita Mae Brown
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#7
05-06-2006, 03:02 PM
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I like what Joe has to say, only I would reverse the soup bowl and flip it over. Whereas Joe says we set an example of how others may treat us (which is to a great extent true), I find it far, far more telling that *we will treat others the way we treat ourselves.* It is my observation that those who say and think that they are inadequate, pieces of poop, bad people, are among the first to treat the next guy like a piece of poop, too. If you love your*self* you are going to treat other human beings with care and compassion as well. Note that I said, love your *self* not love your *selfishness* - they lead to different ends.
Awediot - you're good at reading between the lines. Yes, I believe philosophically in fearlessness, but I ain't there yet.  (maybe soon, who knows?)  Also note I said that I advocate against stuff like Mr X's propaganda - not him personally. I am just not one of the patient people here who can dialogue with X. I find I have nothing to say to him (nothing that would be constructive at any rate). But please remember I have NOTHING against people who identified as gay once and now no longer. After all, er,. . . ahem, well  . . .you've read my story haventcha? 
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#8
05-06-2006, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
...I'm kind of stuck writing between the lines as well. And fair enough re: ExGaybiz... I like your fear of seeing people hurt. It is one of the useful ways to use it and comes straight from the heart. It motivates you and protects them. If you find something else that does the same, and is more pleasant, please let me know... We've all been searching. ...this all poses a real dilemma for this group. I don't believe gay orientation is a sin. It is nonsensical. Given that, God has done stranger things than shift someone back, and an overzealousness could be expected. This does not justify them then turning around and damning the rest of us, but we also must be careful not to attribute their change as only self delusion and purely the result of outside pressure. We expect to be believed when we say we are this way by God, and must allow them to claim the same. If we are so certain their change is insincere and out of confusion, we are a step closer to understanding how Dobsen sees us.
__________________
shamelessselfpromotion
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#9
05-07-2006, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
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#10
05-07-2006, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Actually the pastor at an MCC church I was attending and a few board members strongly encouraged me, that is if I didn’t go I would be asked to leave the church, to see someone about "accepting" my homosexuality when they heard I had decided to see someone about ex-gay therapy. Quote:
-Venari
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#11
05-07-2006, 12:12 PM
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What a mess.
The problem is prescribing a formula or a path to follow. No matter where it comes from. No matter what the intention. A problem with ex-gay programs/therapies is that trying to change an innate set of feelings, the capacity to love, tends to pit one against the life force itself. If change in orientation *is* to happen, it will happen on its own. We cannot control how our innermost being will manifest, we can only allow or inhibit that expression. Control is for externals, like behavior. I've never seen willful effort do anything but shove feelings underground and out of sight, where they lurk to wreak havoc later. The people I know who have spent significant time in such programs/therapies tell me they found nothing but pain in them. So yes, Venari you are going to continue running into people who will ask you to steer clear of ex-gaydom, out of concern for what heartache they fear you will encounter. That doesn't excuse what your pastor said. Suggesting that you leave the church because you wanted to explore such a program - well - sounds like your pastor has a personal agenda in mind for you. His intentions are good, but he doesn't do you any favors by giving ultimatums, anymore than if someone pushing an ex-gay agenda did the same thing.  Part of why/how I ended up remaining identified with the gay community was that no one I ran into in that community ever tried to press me into self-labelling. IN fact, the opposite, they discouraged me from self-labelling, from coming out too soon, refusing to "help" me by telling me what I should do, and so forth. It struck me that *these* were the people who left it to me to wrestle with the questions and come to know myself without outside prescriptions or expectations. And that led me to trust them. An important thing to remember when dealing with gays who want you to avoid ex-gaydom, and ex-gays who encourage you in to such therapies, is that people tend to recommend for others what has worked for them. We have to be mindful that our mileage might vary. Just cause I went from being lesbian-identified and dating women to happily married to a man doesn't mean it's a path for anyone else to follow. It was simply what happened to me. Does that technically make me "an ex-gay"? Who knows? But one thing I won't do is suggest that anyone else "try" to have such a thing happen to them. There are some things in life that we can't "make," they will simply happen, or not. That's the root of my objection to ex-gay therapies. We can't "make" life happen according to a prescription, and trying to do so leads to sorrow.
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#13
05-08-2006, 12:13 AM
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oooh boy
There is little more annoying or petty than someone who kicks something you haven't, then rubs your nose in it with the "if I can do it, anyone can" demeaning encouragement. Compound that with having your sexual being written off as a bad habit, and the pompous fool being held up as a supreme example and moral superior, and mere obnoxiousness becomes a lit fuse.
Having someone come along, seemingly, garishly successful in the change we could not accomplish, implies either we are weak, gave up to soon or are less important to God than they. They are worse than the right wingers, who we can take comfort in knowing that they have no first hand experience in the struggle, and can judge only hypothetically. X-gays have that experience and have transcended it, leaving us looking like the sicko failures some insist we are. If they are genuine, a whole new, weirder side of God appears, along with a new set of questions as to why He decided to answer their prayers and not ours. We sense the darkness of an eagerly outgrown period swell up again, and old fears long gone threaten to rise from the grave... Though I believe He has reasons for such mysteries, and granting them a new found heterosexuality may or may not be a blessing, it in no way should be taken as a sign of His preferences or proof change is required by all. If He has created straights, bisexuals, gays, transgendered and others, He may well have created X-all of the aboves, and the rainbow in between grows deeper and richer than we represent... If they have merely mastered the art of denial to a point of cloaking themselves in a meticulously constructed false side of God, adding another chasm in our path, we have a duty and right to defend ourselves, speak Truth and expose them. But knowing where they come from, we must do so with the same love and compassion reserved for the most tormented and nasty among us... If the sincere and the charlatans were only differently colored, or one had stars on their bellies, we'd be set... Until then, this may be merely a sidetrack, additional battle, but a more emotional and threatening one... Keep the faith. You are more than Loved...
__________________
shamelessselfpromotion
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