Responsibility vs. Victim

[NathanATX]

What would it be like if we could take responsibility for the way LGBT people are treated by conservative faith communities in the US?

Instead of blaming and pointing the finger at how wrong "they" are... what if we just "tried on" that we are at the source of the fear, hurt, confusion, misinformation, etc.?

What would we have to give up? (hint: What automatic story or immediate conversation do you already have in your head about: ...)

• About ourselves?
• About "them?"
• About life?
• About our families?
• About love?
• About faith/religion?

If you were to give those things up... i.e. really see them as stories and conversations that you made up... i.e. they're not real like your computer is real... what would that be like for you to not have those stories existing as "real?"

If you took all the story and the drama out of what is happening or what has happened and you just dealt with the facts... what would be different?

If not blaming other people and not making them wrong were rules of the game that you couldn't break, how would the game of having faith communities and families be safe for queer people be played?

[Jennifer5]

Since this specific setting I can't put myself in, I applied what you are saying my non-existent relationship with my father.

It's interesting to consider taking full responsibility for everything. In my case, I would actually have a relationship with him. I think that in some ways life would become easier if we could just erase all the painful stories of our past. The question comes to mind though, why would I do that? Things that happen to us, make us who we are. I wouldn't want to let it go.

Really interesting topic, what does everyone else think?

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

Since this specific setting I can't put myself in, I applied what you are saying my non-existent relationship with my father.

It's interesting to consider taking full responsibility for everything. In my case, I would actually have a relationship with him. I think that in some ways life would become easier if we could just erase all the painful stories of our past. The question comes to mind though, why would I do that? Things that happen to us, make us who we are. I wouldn't want to let it go.

Really interesting topic, what does everyone else think?

Well, the things that happened are real right? Like your computer is real. And then, you made up all kinds of things about your dad, yourself, life, men, trusting people, etc. because of what happened.

I know it's a total mind warp...

And this is just a conversation... we're not going to really make something not happen that happened, right?

You wouldn't be letting go of anything. You would almost be waking up to something... maybe that you have been living as if a conversation or story was real instead of as if it was something that you made up when what happened happened. (gives cookies to those who can follow that ) Then, in the future you could actually choose to honor, to listen and relate to the story as if it's real or you could actually choose to honor or create something that empowers and inspires you.

It might open up, as you said, actually having a relationship with your dad.

For the queer community, it might open up actually being in relationship with the people we have written off.

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

Well, the things that happened are real right? Like your computer is real. And then, you made up all kinds of things about your dad, yourself, life, men, trusting people, etc. because of what happened.

I know it's a total mind warp...

And this is just a conversation... we're not going to really make something not happen that happened, right?

You wouldn't be letting go of anything. You would almost be waking up to something... maybe that you have been living as if a conversation or story was real instead of as if it was something that you made up when what happened happened. (gives cookies to those who can follow that ) Then, in the future you could actually choose to honor, to listen and relate to the story as if it's real or you could actually choose to honor or create something that empowers and inspires you.

It might open up, as you said, actually having a relationship with your dad.

For the queer community, it might open up actually being in relationship with the people we have written off.

It really is a similar situation.

I see what your saying, that it wouldn't be erasing those things, it would be discovering that they were not real. Would that change things though? Do you still get to read those stories? Despite how unreal they may be, how much would their personal-ness still affect you? Or would you simply wake up from a bad dream, grateful that it's over?

How do you think it would play out Nate?

[NathanATX]

1. Last week, I go to take my mom to lunch for her birthday.
   1. In the past she disowned me because I am gay and (still)believes I'm going to hell.
   2. I used to get so offended and hurt by things she said and did because of the stories I made up about her, about God, about church, about myself, etc...
      1. I made up she was evil, unloving, unChristian
      2. I made up that I was alone, that I didn't have a family, that I didn't have a mother
      3. I made up that all of Christendom is to blame for what she was doing/saying
      4. I made up that I had to be hurt, wounded, etc., by what she did.
      5. I made up that I was a martyr, she was wrong, and I was right.
2. We go to a cafe and she won't eat.
3. She tells me on the way back to her office that she, as a good Christian, can't eat with Christians who have fallen away... or are pretending to be Christians.

Do you see the game my mom is wanting me to play? She's judging me, making me wrong and she is tensed up, waiting for me to react and attack her.

I decided to play the game of "loving my mom unconditionally."

This was my response... after cracking up, I said "You know what... I'm gonna follow you around and whenever you start to eat, I'm gonna be right there!"

She laughed.

She started to say, "I love you, but"

and I cut her off with... "You love my stinking socks off." "And I love you too."

That's the kind of difference that's being made. And honestly the most powerful change is happening over here, in me. I actually get to love my mom. I get to play the game I want to play... instead of the default game of victim and reaction that was the only game available before realizing that I had made up all these stories about her, what happened, myself, etc.

That is the kind of responsibility I'm talking about.

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

1. Last week, I go to take my mom to lunch for her birthday.
   1. In the past she disowned me because I am gay and (still)believes I'm going to hell.
   2. I used to get so offended and hurt by things she said and did because of the stories I made up about her, about God, about church, about myself, etc...
      1. I made up she was evil, unloving, unChristian
      2. I made up that I was alone, that I didn't have a family, that I didn't have a mother
      3. I made up that all of Christendom is to blame for what she was doing/saying
      4. I made up that I had to be hurt, wounded, etc., by what she did.
      5. I made up that I was a martyr, she was wrong, and I was right.
2. We go to a cafe and she won't eat.
3. She tells me on the way back to her office that she, as a good Christian, can't eat with Christians who have fallen away... or are pretending to be Christians.

Do you see the game my mom is wanting me to play? She's judging me, making me wrong and she is tensed up, waiting for me to react and attack her.

I decided to play the game of "loving my mom unconditionally."

This was my response... after cracking up, I said "You know what... I'm gonna follow you around and whenever you start to eat, I'm gonna be right there!"

She laughed.

She started to say, "I love you, but"

and I cut her off with... "You love my stinking socks off." "And I love you too."

That's the kind of difference that's being made. And honestly the most powerful change is happening over here, in me. I actually get to love my mom. I get to play the game I want to play... instead of the default game of victim and reaction that was the only game available before realizing that I had made up all these stories about her, what happened, myself, etc.

That is the kind of responsibility I'm talking about.

What an awesome experience.

I love to hear the story, the influenced the question, there almost always is one.

I now understand more of what you were saying. It's a good idea and I think it could help a lot of people. Making yourself a victim is never a good thing.

I now also see that there is one very big difference between your situation and mine, you wanted that loving relationship with you mom. While I, don't want that with my father, why that is I don't know.

Nate, you're hard not to love, even for a stranger. Of course your mom adores you.

[NathanATX]

I don't want a relationship with my dad.

Here's my story about it: I have never met him, he has major drug/alcohol problems, I'm a better person than he is, he doesn't deserve to get to know me, etc.

It's really pretty stuff, huh?

I could make up a story that I shouldn't think that way about my dad... but that's just more story.

Bottom line is that it just isn't a relationship I am committed to. I can really say that without making him out to be a horrible person (aka story and he's not a horrible person) and without making myself wrong for not wanting to get to know him (aka story).

However...

I AM committed to a relationship with my mom.

I AM committed to the relationships between churches and their queer young people.

Those are games I want to play and win.

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

I don't want a relationship with my dad.

Here's my story about it: I have never met him, he has major drug/alcohol problems, I'm a better person than he is, he doesn't deserve to get to know me, etc.

It's really pretty stuff, huh?

I could make up a story that I shouldn't think that way about my dad... but that's just more story.

Bottom line is that it just isn't a relationship I am committed to. I can really say that without making him out to be a horrible person (aka story and he's not a horrible person) and without making myself wrong for not wanting to get to know him (aka story).

However...

I AM committed to a relationship with my mom.

I AM committed to the relationships between churches and their queer young people.

Those are games I want to play and win.

That was an important part that I was missing.

I'll have to PM you, I could really use some advice right now that I think may connect to this.

Since you probably already read that... edit: nvm, the situation I'm referring to does not have anything to do with this and I can't communicate things well enough to even ask for advice.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

1. We go to a cafe and she won't eat.
2. She tells me on the way back to her office that she, as a good Christian, can't eat with Christians who have fallen away... or are pretending to be Christians.

Do you see the game my mom is wanting me to play? She's judging me, making me wrong and she is tensed up, waiting for me to react and attack her.

I decided to play the game of "loving my mom unconditionally."

This was my response... after cracking up, I said "You know what... I'm gonna follow you around and whenever you start to eat, I'm gonna be right there!"

She laughed.

She started to say, "I love you, but"

and I cut her off with... "You love my stinking socks off." "And I love you too."

That's the kind of difference that's being made. And honestly the most powerful change is happening over here, in me. I actually get to love my mom. I get to play the game I want to play... instead of the default game of victim and reaction that was the only game available before realizing that I had made up all these stories about her, what happened, myself, etc.

That is the kind of responsibility I'm talking about.

Brilliant.

RE the topic generally, there is a lot of truth and empowerment to that.

However we still need to clarify that we cannot take 100% responsibility for how someone else acts. We create - how shall I put this?? - a sort of a 'template' of possible response choices for the other person in a communication. It's possible that the way we behave towards someone can limit or confine their options of response. I wish now I had taken psychology class so I could name what I'm referring to here; psychologists have noted this phenomenon.

At most we can take 50% of the responsibility in a two-way communication. That's a large amount, but let's not get to believing that it's total. That 50%, if the style shifts, is a tremendous amount of influence.

As soon as we shift the scenario from one-one conversation to a larger phenomenon like "the church and LGBT people," you have thrown so many variables into there it becomes mud. There is still the matter of mutual influence, but we're throwing into it all those histories and motivations from which millions of minds draw. The chunk size of the task is too large to create real change - no one can deal with all of that complexity, which is why it is an axiom to simply work on yourself as an individual. That's really the only part you *can* truly work with, or change if you want to change it.

RE the beliefs though. . . they *are* real. They are biologically real - wired in with neuron patterns and chemicals and electrical signals. Those are all real things that you can measure and count and name and point to. That is our difficulty. They *are* real. Have you read Thoreau? I'm talking about the neurological reality of his path in the grass that got worn down with his continual use until it became easier and easier to take that route repeatedly because it became a little dirt path from all his footsteps. Thoreau knew that the mind worked that way about 150 years before science could show it. Beliefs (and memories) *are* real things.

That's the tricky part.

[Alecto]

I was actually incredibly offended by the first post because I didn't really understand what you were saying until you clarified a little further down.

I know this is like, anti-soulforce-spirit, but I don't think all our problems would magically melt away if we stuck to the facts, because there's enough people on the other side of the table who refuse to stick to the facts. MOSTLY, I think we already do, especially in the public discourse (personal lives can be more challenging sometimes). I think it's a good step for dialogue, but dialogue doesn't work if there's only one person there in the true spirit of the thing.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Alecto

I was actually incredibly offended by the first post because I didn't really understand what you were saying until you clarified a little further down.

I know this is like, anti-soulforce-spirit, but I don't think all our problems would magically melt away if we stuck to the facts, because there's enough people on the other side of the table who refuse to stick to the facts. MOSTLY, I think we already do, especially in the public discourse (personal lives can be more challenging sometimes). I think it's a good step for dialogue, but dialogue doesn't work if there's only one person there in the true spirit of the thing.

This relates to my earlier comment about 50% responsibility. We cannot accept 100% responsibility for a situation that involves someone else. 50%, sure. I think this is Nate's real point - to reinvent our part of the equation. Suggesting that we unplug from automatic reactions and victim mentality, that we empower ourselves by responding in the best, most unconditionally positive way the situation allows. Unless I misunderstand, Nate's point is that we ourselves have more options of reaction/response than the automatic, habitual ones.

I interpret Nate's post as a rallying cry to look at our life with new eyes and see where we may be interpreting ourselves automatically as victims, and try out new, empowering behavior patterns instead. This is an individual thing, however, and we cannot take responsibility for the actions of someone else, and certainly not for large groups, ie "conservative churches." I don't see that overtly stated in Nate's posts, which is why I jumped in with the caveat. We don't control someone else's thoughts or actions, so we do not have responsibility for what they do. Before you have responsibility, you have to have power.

[tdogg]

I agree with Zerbie, to a certain degree. One thing I remind my employees when they aren't getting along (I'm big on 'teamwork') is that we can't control the next person, but we can control how we react to that person. So we have 100% responsibility to be responsible for our own actions and words. We may have some responsibility for another's actions/words (provocation, etc.). But also, I do believe sometimes, it's not even important or useful to assign blame.

Instead, if we attempt to be proactive, again keeping in mind we cannot control the other person - only ourselves, then I see that we can change ourselves or the situation. Not necessarily the other person. In effect Nathan, that's what your example with your mother is. I think it's the same thing you are saying, only in different words (which make it a little easier for myself to grasp). I'm not sure I'm in a position to be completely there with some of my family, yet. Working on being proactive and refusing to blame anyone.

In my faith outreach group. we are bringing the discussion of marriage equality into churchs and groups of faith (right now the material we are using is geared towards Christian faith). Focusing on moderate or split congregations (perhaps reconciling or with some congregation against marriage equality), we aren't coming in to tell anyone their views (or vote) are/were wrong, but just to facilitate discussion amongst the congregation. A safe place where all views can be dicussed as we go through curriculum meant to explain why some agree with the concept of equality. It's interesting and as my first workshop is being planned for Sept 09, I'm not exactly sure what to expect out of it!

Dialogue is key, blaming can often be counterproductive, and taking responsibility for ourselves is vital.

[tdogg]

Ok, I tried to be creative, but take 100% blame for creating HUGE type!

[BenL]

Nate, thanks for starting this thread. It's an important topic. We all need to examine our motives and methods in view of the principles we esteem.

I have always avoided confrontation, as did my parents before me, from whom I learned the fine art of avoidance. The problem is that, in order to avoid confrontation, I have also avoided creative engagement, which is where minds change and minds meet. I'm great at talking to people with whom I feel comfortable (read: those who will probably agree with me), but I'm afraid to take on anyone who might object or disagree at all strenuously.

Oh, I can rail privately against injustice, but when it comes to confronting -- or engaging -- those I think are contributing to it, I shrink back into my cave. Not very creative at all.

So, your call away from victimhood toward responsibility is an important one. Thanks for showing us some playful ways to make it happen.

[NathanATX]

Isn't this fascinating...

Notice, for a moment, all of your resistance to taking 100% responsibility for how things go, what people say/do, what people get left with, and the ultimate results of a situation.

Do you hear all the:

• Assessments
• Judgements
• "Killing people off" or "writing them off"

Do you hear the:

• Self righteousness... "I'm right."
• Martyr
• Victim
• "This isn't fair"
• Resignation... "This is just how life is"

Ok, enough noticing...

Get this: Taking responsibility for how situations/conversations/etc. go is LIGHT YEARS from actually being responsible for what other people say/do. We are all solely responsible for what we do/say/etc. If I'm speeding, I get the ticket. This conversation is about "taking responsibility."

The whole concept of taking 100% responsibility for something is:

1. A way of looking at life from a place of power. If you are responsible for the way things have gone up until now, then you can be responsible for how things go in the future.
2. A way of altering how other people hear and see the situation. If you are 100% responsible for a conflict, you're not going to be blaming, judging, etc., the other person. And believe me, other people know when you're doing that. Remember a time when someone was mad at you. They didn't even have to open their mouth before you knew they thought you were wrong. And your likely response was a) to get defensive, b) to start collecting evidence for your point of view, c) to start recruiting others to your point of view. Sometimes, you would begin these processes even BEFORE they opened their mouths. You can actually take a stand that a situation changes without having the other person hear you as making them wrong. THEN, they can actually hear what you are saying... instead of listening to their own voices in their heads planning their defense or getaway.
3. A pathway to action. Try this. Declare that YOU are 100% responsible for the way things have gone in an area of your life. Then, declare that you are 100% responsible for that things will go a certain way (ex: love & compassion in a relationship) from now on. If you really take that on and get present to it, you should start seeing all kinds of different things you could do or say to have what you are committed to actually happen. Then all there is to do is to get in action.

[NathanATX]

And you are all right. This kind of work isn't effective if we only try to do it on a national/global scale.

Just like the work of practicing non-violence, it first begins with you, your thoughts, then your actions, then with people close to you... and it builds from there...

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by BenL

I have always avoided confrontation, as did my parents before me, from whom I learned the fine art of avoidance. The problem is that, in order to avoid confrontation, I have also avoided creative engagement, which is where minds change and minds meet.

This topic comes up a lot with my family. People's fear of true communication, we might have another thread topic here.

Originally Posted by NathanATX

Isn't this fascinating...

Notice, for a moment, all of your resistance to taking 100% responsibility for how things go, what people say/do, what people get left with, and the ultimate results of a situation.

Do you hear all the:

• Assessments
• Judgements
• "Killing people off" or "writing them off"

Do you hear the:

• Self righteousness... "I'm right."
• Martyr
• Victim
• "This isn't fair"
• Resignation... "This is just how life is"

Ok, enough noticing...

Get this: Taking responsibility for how situations/conversations/etc. go is LIGHT YEARS from actually being responsible for what other people say/do. We are all solely responsible for what we do/say/etc. If I'm speeding, I get the ticket. This conversation is about "taking responsibility."

The whole concept of taking 100% responsibility for something is:

1. A way of looking at life from a place of power. If you are responsible for the way things have gone up until now, then you can be responsible for how things go in the future.
2. A way of altering how other people hear and see the situation. If you are 100% responsible for a conflict, you're not going to be blaming, judging, etc., the other person. And believe me, other people know when you're doing that. Remember a time when someone was mad at you. They didn't even have to open their mouth before you knew they thought you were wrong. And your likely response was a) to get defensive, b) to start collecting evidence for your point of view, c) to start recruiting others to your point of view. Sometimes, you would begin these processes even BEFORE they opened their mouths. You can actually take a stand that a situation changes without having the other person hear you as making them wrong. THEN, they can actually hear what you are saying... instead of listening to their own voices in their heads planning their defense or getaway.
3. A pathway to action. Try this. Declare that YOU are 100% responsible for the way things have gone in an area of your life. Then, declare that you are 100% responsible for that things will go a certain way (ex: love & compassion in a relationship) from now on. If you really take that on and get present to it, you should start seeing all kinds of different things you could do or say to have what you are committed to actually happen. Then all there is to do is to get in action.

You notice those things because it's really hard not to go there. How hard was if for you to not just say what you did to your mom, but to actually take full responsibility for how you felt about hurting words regarding you?

It would take a LOT of time and a LOT of energy to be able to successfully do what you're talking about. This is not what we as a society do. I think there's a lot to gain by taking responsibility though and we should all keep this in mind. Start by doing so in the easier situations where things are easier to let go of and gradually do so the harder situations such as dealing with family.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

Isn't this fascinating...

Notice, for a moment, all of your resistance to taking 100% responsibility for how things go, what people say/do, what people get left with, and the ultimate results of a situation.

Do you hear all the:

• Assessments
• Judgements
• "Killing people off" or "writing them off"

Do you hear the:

• Self righteousness... "I'm right."
• Martyr
• Victim
• "This isn't fair"
• Resignation... "This is just how life is"

Ok, enough noticing...

Get this: Taking responsibility for how situations/conversations/etc. go is LIGHT YEARS from actually being responsible for what other people say/do. We are all solely responsible for what we do/say/etc. If I'm speeding, I get the ticket. This conversation is about "taking responsibility."
[*]A pathway to action. Try this. Declare that YOU are 100% responsible for the way things have gone in an area of your life. Then, declare that you are 100% responsible for that things will go a certain way (ex: love & compassion in a relationship) from now on. If you really take that on and get present to it, you should start seeing all kinds of different things you could do or say to have what you are committed to actually happen. Then all there is to do is to get in action.[/LIST]

Do you hear yourself?

Resistance? Is that what you call acknowledging that there are circumstances you can't control? Resistance?

It is a fantasy land to believe that an individual creates 100% of the circumstances around them. That's what I hear you saying. If you're saying something else, then I've mis-read you and need clarification.

What I am hearing is that all you have to do is take 100% responsibility for a situation that involves other people, and it will be all your power to alter it. Forget that the other person has a part.

Well, how about the other person's 100% responsibility? If you are 100% responsible for your relationship with someone, is the other person just a dumb puppet? Or is the other person the one with 100% responsibility while you are the puppet? Which is it?

What I hear you saying here is absolute nonsense with no bearing on reality, and if someone sets themselves up to believe they're 100% responsible for every surrounding circumstance, they are either going to be very darn disappointed, or mad as heck at themselves when they don't 'create the reality' they thought they did. Like those people who blame themselves for failing to 'think' themselves free of cancer.

We only have 100% responsibility for ourselves (and only then if we are mentally capable adults.) It is IMPOSSIBLE to have 100% responsibility for complex circumstances involving other beings.

If you want to be 100% responsible for situations involving other people, then you must take 100% control over all those other people, otherwise you can only be responsible to the portion for which you CAN influence/control. That is, you.

[Zerbie]

By the way, your suggestion that anyone here should take 100% responsibility for the way LGBT people are treated by conservative churches, a situation that arose centuries ago, and is fueled by a system of repeated lies by those in positions of power who ought to know better, is beyond insulting.

Never mind. Done with this thread, unless it turns out you mean something entirely different from what your words have so far conveyed.

I stand with Alecto. Your post is not empowering. It is unrealistic at best and incredibly insulting at worst. I find I am angry that you would approach a group consisting mainly of gay Christians and feed them a fantasy that if they just took more responsibility then the sheer hatred that has been bred in certain "churches" would magically change.

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Do you hear yourself?

Resistance? Is that what you call acknowledging that there are circumstances you can't control? Resistance?

It is a fantasy land to believe that an individual creates 100% of the circumstances around them. That's what I hear you saying. If you're saying something else, then I've mis-read you and need clarification.

I think you're misunderstanding what Nate is trying to say, because this is how I've read it at all.

First of all, I don't think anyone is trying to say that an individual creates 100% of the circumstances around them, just as Nate is not responsible for his mother's challenge with him being gay. What he can be completely responsible for though, is how he chooses to react. That's where 100% responsibility comes into play. He chose not to be a victim of her words, he took responsibility for the situation and just said, I love you mom, not allowing her words to hurt him. How he did he do that? I don't know, he has to explain that (or tell me if I just explained that all wrong).

What I am hearing is that all you have to do is take 100% responsibility for a situation that involves other people, and it will be all your power to alter it. Forget that the other person has a part.

What would happen if you did that? It might just work. I can't think of a good way to explain this. What would happen though, if you thought of it as if the other individual involved had no ability to take responsibility?

What I hear you saying here is absolute nonsense with no bearing on reality, and if someone sets themselves up to believe they're 100% responsible for every surrounding circumstance, they are either going to be very darn disappointed, or mad as heck at themselves when they don't 'create the reality' they thought they did. Like those people who blame themselves for failing to 'think' themselves free of cancer.

We only have 100% responsibility for ourselves (and only then if we are mentally capable adults.) It is IMPOSSIBLE to have 100% responsibility for complex circumstances involving other beings.

If you want to be 100% responsible for situations involving other people, then you must take 100% control over all those other people, otherwise you can only be responsible to the portion for which you CAN influence/control. That is, you.

I think that's all any of us are trying to say Zerbie, taking 100% responsibility for ourselves. We cannot be responsible for your situation, but we can be responsible for how we choose to deal with it.

One situation I'm in currently, is strongly disliking the man my mom is dating. He hasn't done anything to make me feel this way, I just can't trust him, but my mom really like him.

There is very little I can do to change this situation. What I could do however, would be to take responsibility for me. Instead of blaming her for dating him, or blaming him for not being the kind of man she deserves, I could accept the situation for what it is and have a good attitude about it all. I am capable of taking that kind of responsibility.

I think the hard question is not, are we able to take that kind of responsibility? But rather, are we willing to take that kind of responsibility?

In my situation, I am able, but not willing.