If Mary Had Aborted Our Savior...

[Dakota]

God the Father would have destroyed mankind on the spot two thousand years ago, and none of us would be here today. After all, if we didn't have Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we wouldn't have our salvation, and life would be meaningless and without hope. So, even though I have always believed that women have the right to control their own bodies and make choices that they feel are best for them, and I would never tell a woman that she couldn't have an abortion if she wanted one, I still oppose abortion and believe that it is a murderous act that strips an unborn child of his/her personhood status, and I always will, so I hope you all understand and will forgive me for my strong viewpoint. I support adoption, because I believe that, because over 55 million unborn children have been aborted since Roe v Wade of 1973, there are not enough babies for childless couples to adopt, and I would not want to deprive one of these couples of a precious gift of life if I were facing an unplanned pregnancy and was unable to raise my child on my own. After all, if abortions continued in this country alone, we may face fewer supporters of our cause, and be deprived of more lasting friendships on this Forum. Think about it.

[tdogg]

Hi Dakota!

This is a loaded topic you brought up. I get your point. I'm am personally in favor of a woman's right to choose. For too many centuries, womens' bodies were controlled by their 'men'. Decision made or not made by men. Women were basically treated as property with no right to decide anything for themselves. This is why I believe a woman has the right to choose what is best for her own body.

Abortion is a sad and terrible thing. Reversing Roe vs. Wade is not the answer, but a good sexual health education for children as young as junior high (if not before) is vital, including safe sex and not just abstination. The high percentage of teen pregnancies is proof that abstination only education is not effective. Another issue is readily available contraception. Planned parenthood is a great organization, but sadly in these economic times, clinics are closing and not everyone has access (transportation, ability, knowledge) to access if it is available.

I am an advocate for adoption. I think it's wonderful. When all the pro-choice folks have adopted all the orphans then I would be willing to re-discuss abortion. Otherwise, for me, I must remain pro-choice. I do respect other choices, but do not respect any efforts of anyone who attemp to strip me (or any other woman) of my/their right to control their own body.

[tdogg]

I wanted to add a response to the part of your post that addresses Jesus, or a lack of Jesus had Mary aborted him. If God is as powerful as many believe, then God would never have allowed any situation happen that would have prevented Jesus from coming to earth and saving his people. No?

[BruceChris]

But consider how much progress could be made if we could start out by defining the source of the problem as unwanted pregnancies. Without them, there would not be ANY abortions, except those deemed medically necessary.

I'm looking forward to a world where sex and sexuality, EVERYONE'S sexuality, would be seen as something wonderful, a gift from God, to be celebrated joyously, and discussed openly.

*Boy, are we on the wrong side of THAT paradigm right now.*

I'm looking forward to a world where a couple, or a woman would no more consider getting pregnant without making a carefully thought through decision, than say, a person would consider stepping out of an aircraft without a parachute.

As I see it, right now both sides are putting ALL of their energy into fighting over abortion, with almost nothing left over to attempt to deal with the underlying problem.

We have seen any number of, often totalitarian, regimes around the world that have instituted a wide number of repressive measures to eliminate the Supply of abortions, with much human suffering resulting.

Please, explain to me what steps that you believe you would propose to reduce or eliminate the Demand for abortions?

I do not know ANYONE in social services, who could conceive of reaching a world without unwanted pregnancies, if abortion availability were eliminated beforehand.

Note1: I often wonder why this topic comes up as often as it does in the LGBT community. It is extremely rare that unwanted pregnancies occur in our community, for obvious reasons.

Note2: I often do volunteer work with Pro Choice Resources. While it is still true that their Back-Against-The-Wall issue is the preservation of Choice, they are very active in the community, helping to provide sex education and birth control.

No, I Have NEVER gotten anyone pregnant, Bruce Chris

[BruceChris]

Originally Posted by "Dakota"

there are not enough babies for childless couples to adopt, and I would not want to deprive one of these couples of a precious gift of life

There are something like 120.000 children in this country available for adoption, with an additional 600.000 children being cared for in the Children and Family Services systems in this country.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Dakota]

So I hope I'm not getting all "fundie" on you. I do, however, support the use of contraceptives and in teaching sex education to our children so that they are not as likely to become teenage parents. I think these programs are a good idea. Some public schools even offer up a Baby Think It Over baby doll that teenage boys and girls take home and care for for a week to try and divert them from having babies until they are ready. I agree also that abstinence-only sex education doesn't work, either, neither do Purity Pledges and Rings. These are unrealistic and are designed to cause our kids to fail at waiting until marriage before having sex, especially since masturbation is often discouraged. You all have some very good points, though, and I am glad that you shared them with me. Planned Parenthood, however, and other abortion clinics, give me the willies, though, because I've seen enough abortion images on the Internet to realize how tragic and awful abortion is. Thanks again, but my principles are my principles, just like your principles are your principles, and I tend to agree with both sides of every issue, anyway, because that's also a part of what makes democracy in America work. Are we still friends?

[labguy22]

That is awesome Dakota that you will never have an abortion. Even better that you have the right to chose yes, or no. I am a man and will never have to make a decision like this, but I would never wish the right to chose should ever be taken away.
So many believe that abortion is simply some form of birth control; maybe that helps people sleep easier who oppose it and for a small number perhaps it is true. For the women I know who have had an abortion, it was the single most difficult decision they have ever made. They live with that for the rest of their lives, but it was theirs to make. Having people always ready to remind them and judge them is a very hateful thing to do.

Believing that God would have destroyed mankind is just kinda silly.

[tdogg]

Planned parenthood is not an abortion clinic. They offer contraceptives and related counseling, pregnancy counseling, referrals to MDs, abortion clinics, adoptions agencies. So many people believe PP is all about abortions and while they will refer women to clinics if that is their decision, the main focus is birth control, assistance with pregnancies and MD referrals.

Dakota, any ideas on how you would address the issue BruceChris brought up? I believe in sex education for upper elementary school and/or junior high age students, including safe sex (along with abstinence advocation). I think that's a good start. I also think we need to look at how we can help people get through their hangups over sexuality (not limited to being gay but sexuality in general). That is, I believe, a huge problem in our country that leads to all sorts of problems (including parents not address sexuality with their children and high rates of teenage pregnancies).

Actually, like BruceChris says, there are thousands and thousands of orphan children hoping and waiting to be adopted. Most will never be. I stand by my statement, that when all the pro-life advocates adopt all the orphans, then we can discuss abortion. Sadly, that will never happen. However, many gay and lesbian couples are adopting children, where it's legal in their state, and giving home to children that others would never consider.

[BruceChris]

of issues.

You are only talking about what happens After a woman gets pregnant, and I am trying to address only what should happen Before a woman becomes pregnant.

If birth control could somehow become 100% effective, I would only be making arguments about what happens before a woman becomes pregnant.

I am trying to lay out a method for reducing the total number of abortions, over the long run.

You seem to be addressing only ONE abortion, or at least one at a time, involving unwanted pregnancies, as they occur, and continue to.

>>Partially here, I am responding to your PM more than your recent posting<<

I do wish we could get to the position that the Northern Europeans are at, with much fewer unwanted pregnancies, and much, much fewer abortions.

Yes, I agree, we should stay friends.


(Three cheers for Jocelyn Elders)

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[BruceChris]

I wholeheartedly agree with what you say, and you seem to have a much nicer way of saying it.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[sauu4equality]

The following was taken from: http://ffrf.org/nontracts/abortion.php

["If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."--Ex. 21:22-25

The bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but not for the expulsion of a fetus.]

Hmmm....so not even God thinks abortion is murder....Just food for thought.

[Dakota]

How would mankind continue on without a Savior if Mary had chosen to abort Him, and if Planned Parenthood isn't an abortion clinic, then why are women entering these facilities to have abortions? Also, if Planned Parenthood isn't an abortion clinic, then why does the organization believe that the unborn child has no personhood status until after the baby is born? And why are these women lied to about the so-called "safety" of abortion, when lots of things can go wrong during an abortion procedure or method? Some women have died during their abortions, and yet very few women these days die from childbirth. Perhaps you all should go to www.plannedparenthood.com, read what they have to say, really study it, by the way, and then get back to me later. I'm going to that website myself right now.

[Dakota]

And you will discover that Planned Parenthood actually DOES perform abortions at their clinics. I also find it interesting that, even in a wanted pregnancy, the unborn child is never called a baby. The child is only called an embryo or a fetus, despite the child's obvious human features. Hmmm! And here is one more interesting fact I'd like to share with you all: Some Pro-Choice advocates are animal lovers who would probably be horrified and angry if they witnessed an abortion being performed on a pregnant dog or cat (or any other pregnant animal), and tell us that it's wrong to kill and eat the meat of an animal (making us ribs and burger lovers feel guilty for our love of meat), and yet it's perfectly okay to kill an unborn child just because the baby wasn't wanted? Where is the humanity in that?

[Dakota]

Slaves were stripped of their personhood status so they can be sold as slaves and treated like property. Abused and neglected animals are treated like property, and so are abused women and children. Unborn children are stripped of their personhood status so they can be murdered in cold blood, and yet if a woman murdered her baby after the baby was born, she would end up in prison. Also, remember the Jewish holocaust? You guessed it, Hitler thought Jewish people and those born with mental or physical abnormalities were considered not human as well. Plus, did you all know that Margret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was a racist who wanted to rid the world of African-American and other so-called "inferior" people, and that more African-American women have abortions than any other woman of racial and ethnic background? It's a fact. I found out about it while I was browsing the Internet on abortion. If you don't believe me, then go browse and see for yourself. So, what do slaves, abused animals, women, and children, Jewish people, mentally and physically handicapped, and unborn children all have in common? They were/are all God's living, breathing creations that shouldn't be destroyed just because they are deemed inferior by the rest of us. A baby shouldn't be killed just because the baby was an unplanned pregnancy. So, why is it wrong to kill an animal and not a baby?

[BruceChris]

for effectively and systematically reducing unwanted pregnancies through appropriate education and incentives, or other mechanisims?

What would your goals be, in the next 5, or 10 years?

For the sake of argument, I will say that this question does not reference any woman in any way, once she gets pregnant.

Monomaniacally yours, Bruce Chris

[BruceChris]

Birth control is mentioned 5 times, pregnancy once, and abortion once

BC

[Dakota]

Okay, so I'm a pooh-headed fundie when it comes to the abortion issue, and I didn't mean to get so angry at you guys, either. I was only trying to make a point about an issue that I feel very strongly about, and I can see how strongly you all feel about it, too. If I've disrespected you all in any way, I am very sorry, and I hope you can forgive me. This is a very hot-button issue indeed! Anyway, I've decided to boil it all down to this, then leave this topic alone for awhile: I strongly oppose all abortion procedures and methods, I would never have an abortion if I were facing an unplanned pregnancy, but I also strongly support a woman's right to decide what she wants to do with her body because we don't know what she may be going through personally, therefore no one, not us, and certainly not those fundamentalist Christians, has the right to control the woman's body and prevent her from having an abortion. However, I believe that Planned Parenthood is lying about women not regretting their abortions. I have a close friend who regretted having hers for years before God forgave her, redeemed her, and turned her life around. Whether or not she still thinks about the child she lost is anyone's guess. She doesn't like talking about it, so I don't force the subject on her. Stevie Nicks, my favorite singer from Fleetwood Mac, has had four abortions and two miscarriages in her lifetime, and she still regrets every single one (that was why she wrote her song "Sara"). I think if "Nan" and Stevie had their lives to live over and got pregnant with all those precious little babies they've lost, they would have either tried parenting or adoption and never would have had their abortions. This obviously proves that, if a woman can experience the heartbreak of losing a wanted child, then of course they're going to mourn the loss of an aborted child, because they have to live with their decision for the rest of their lives, and some, like Stevie, never get over the pain. However, I also very strongly agree that abstinence-only sex education, Purity Pledges and Rings, and other purity programs do not work, but I do support the use of contraceptives, sex education, and all other programs that are designed to reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies that are rampant in this country without resorting to controlling a woman's body or condemning a woman to Hell for having sex and enjoying herself sexually without being married. I may not agree with everything that other people want to do with their bodies or their lives, but this fundie has already made her promise that she will not stick her nose anywhere it doesn't belong. Peace?

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by Dakota

How would mankind continue on without a Savior if Mary had chosen to abort Him, and if Planned Parenthood isn't an abortion clinic, then why are women entering these facilities to have abortions? Also, if Planned Parenthood isn't an abortion clinic, then why does the organization believe that the unborn child has no personhood status until after the baby is born? And why are these women lied to about the so-called "safety" of abortion, when lots of things can go wrong during an abortion procedure or method? Some women have died during their abortions, and yet very few women these days die from childbirth. Perhaps you all should go to www.plannedparenthood.com, read what they have to say, really study it, by the way, and then get back to me later. I'm going to that website myself right now.

Wow, let me tell you MY story and then you can go on about PP being an 'abortion' clinic.

I suspected I was pregnant, but I didnt have money because I was in college at the time. This was my 3rd child and I knew that I was pregnant. I saw the adds for free pregnancy testing and help with insurance from the local "right to life' clinic. I went there and they told me after my test that I was wrong and I had better come back in a few weeks if my period did not start. I told them I knew it, that I was pregnant and I needed theor help, they turned me down. I guess I should have claimed God sent me an angel and told me I was pregnant, maybe they would have helped hey????? Well, I then went to PP, a friend of mine worked there and she said, here let me test you for free and if your body says its true, then it is. She tested me and I came up with the same tiny little pink spot as I had at the 'right to life' clinic. She said, hey if you want to keep this baby, you need to get to the OB right away, because you should have more pregnancy hormone than that and something may be wrong. She helped me get insurance and I went to the doctor. Ya know what? I was needing Progensterone shots to stay pregnant, if I had listened to right to life, they would have caused my beautiful daughters abortion. My progesterone would have dropped further and it would have caused her death.

As far as I'm concerned, right to life is full of bull. They publish statistics and so called facts that are untrue. They can't even back them up! Sadly, their followers don't seem to want to see if those so called statistics are actually true, they just follow along, not questioning anything. Right to life is just a well funded attempt to control women. Why else would they have a MAN as presidient????

Also, please do your research. Talk to women who have used the coat hanger to abort a child as one of my patients had to do in the 60's. Get the facts about the true death rate of women during childbirth...it's 1% or 1 in 100. Abortion deaths are less than 1 in 1,000.

It is very sad that the next generation of women are so ready to give up their freedoms they fought for, and have no clue about how it used to be for us women.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I believe that Planned Parenthood is lying about women not regretting their abortions. I have a close friend who regretted having hers for years before God forgave her, redeemed her, and turned her life around.

I also have friends who have had abortions. They never regreted them, they were in fact relieved. I think the support a woman has is definately a factor on how she reacts. Making her feel like she needs to be forgiven by God is what shames her. You don't need to be forgiven by God, he or she will understand. Support is what she needs. My friends never once regreted doing it at all. Its the anti-choicers that are the ones lying to women, based on my life experiences. They tell them that they should be ashamed.

The way to end abortions is by both sides working together, not at logerheads. We need to pull together and fund education, sex ed and contraception. We need to become more socialistic and provide services for pregnant women so they dont have to worry about losting their jobs or homes or insurance or wonder about how they will get insurance now that they are pregnant. Wonder how they will support the children they have.

We need to work together. Put all your passion and anger into finding a solution. No one is mad at you, we are just as strong about our position as you are.

Much Metta

[BruceChris]

I regret that there are abortions, for any reason except to save the life of the mother. I do not know anyone who calls themselves "Pro-choice" who believes that abortions are anything but regrettable. I regret that we live in a society that is not mature enough to face these concerns honestly, and prevent most of them before they happen.

To say that sex is embarrassing, or that people are somehow afraid to talk about it is not the same thing as believing that "sex is dirty".

When I was younger, it was quite common for young women who lived at home, to go away for a few months, to *live with an aunt*. What they were doing, of course, was going away to live in a home for unwed mothers, until they gave birth.

In the Soviet Union until sometime in the 1950's there was no birth control. Abortion was birth control.

In some Eastern European countries, where there was no birth control available, there was a serious youth crime problem. Many blamed this on there being too many large families, with too many children, where children could not be be brought up with the care that each one needed.

I can see that Tymejumper has posted while I am composing. She has covered some points that I was going to, so I guess I'll sign off here.

EDIT inserted here:
And I do tend to have much the same impression of "Pro Lifers" that Tymejumper has. I see ~Many of~ them as judgmental, controlling, mean spirited, and dishonest. At least, that's My impression.

There ARE support groups for women who have had abortions. I know of some that are accessable through "Pro-Choice" groups, I don't know if there are any available through "Pro Life" groups.

God's Love to Both of You, Bruce Chris