If Mary Had Aborted Our Savior...

[tymejumper]

Bruce,

Sorry to post your thoughts! We often seem to do that don't we?

[NathanATX]

This conversation is going very well. Thank you all for holding the space of love and community even inside of a potentially emotional discussion.

I want to put a few things in that you are all free to choose to try or not:

• Try on that the other person is right.
• Listen for and speak to the commitment that the other person is BEHIND the position & the words people are saying.
• Try on "there's nothing wrong here."
• Honor the other person's heart, intelligence and humanity.

Thanks for considering this!
Nathan

[BruceChris]

Although it did take far too much time to get there. Some strong language (well, strong for this forum, anyway) was used.

However, it is my impression that admission of some of the other person's truths, reassurances of good faith, and requests that the dialogue be held in mutual respect were made on an ongoing basis.

It does little good, to argue against one person's emotional feelings with another persons preceptions of the facts. For too long, I gave the impression that I was ignoring Joann/Dakota's feelings, because I felt that she was not responding to my attempts at factual arguments. I should have been more thoughtful.

For that I apologise.

It is likely that a lot of this being brought in public could have been avoided if some thoughtfully written PM's had been exchanged early on.

In a perfect world, there would be no stigma to ANY pregnancy, and a village, or The Village, or the neighborhood, would raise the child, and would raise ALL of the children.

To All, in Christ's Love, Bruce Chris

[Dakota]

Wow! I guess I never saw it that way. Thanks, Tymejumper, for sharing your story, and I am really very sorry I was so blind. Maybe I should rethink the abortion issue a little further, huh? Instead, I only thought I was seeing the big picture, but I really wasn't. I think I'm beginning to understand, though. Thanks, and again, I'm sorry I attacked everyone. God bless!

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Wow! I guess I never saw it that way. Thanks, Tymejumper, for sharing your story, and I am really very sorry I was so blind. Maybe I should rethink the abortion issue a little further, huh? Instead, I only thought I was seeing the big picture, but I really wasn't. I think I'm beginning to understand, though. Thanks, and again, I'm sorry I attacked everyone. God bless!

Thankyou for listening to my side. Sometimes it is hard to listen to others when you have very strong feelings about a subject. I think we all have been guilty of that from time to time.

The forum is here for all of us, and we all need to find support and vent from time to time. I am guilty of that myself and Zerbie and others were there to help me work through things. It is good to try to find out about things and often, through disscussions here I have found new ways of thinking. I think pro-choice and pro-life are not all that far appart. We all want the same things, reduction in need for abortions, but I guess it's just the semantics getting in the way!

[Dakota]

I guess I love babies so much, I tend to get very angry and let my emotions get in the way when the issue of abortion comes up. I think to myself, "Why would anyone want to kill an innocent unborn child?" Especially when I view abortion images on the Internet, images of dead aborted babies. They are obviously human, and they were obviously alive before they were aborted, and they obviously suffered a great deal of pain while being aborted. That much is pretty easy to see. But no one wakes up in the morning and says, "I think I'll kill my unborn child just for the fun of it." I mean, do any of us actually know anyone that callous? Probably not. At least, I hope not. We all love babies, and we all hope that a pregnancy makes it to the end without an abortion being necessary. In other words, we all want every child to be a wanted child, not a child who ends up aborted, abused, or neglected because its mother didn't want it. However, what I didn't see was my own blindness. I just wasn't looking at the big picture. I mean, do these very same conservative Christians who oppose and want to outlaw abortion show any compassion and care for these infants and their mothers after the infants are born? No, they do not. In fact, and correct me if I'm wrong here, they oppose any and all social service programs that help the poor, the needy, and the homeless, putting these babies at risk of becoming poor, needy, and homeless. If an infant dies because its parents were too poor to properly care for it and give it proper medical attention, the thinking goes, and this is based on what my own way of thinking was, too, by the way, "They never should have had that kid in the first place!" And yet these same conservative Christians oppose the use of contraceptives, which, if made affordable, would have prevented the child from being born into poverty and despair. If a teenage girl or young woman becomes an unwed mother, she is shunned by her church, especially if she is single and raising her child on her own. Why is she shunned? Not because of the baby, but because this woman had unprotected sex without being married. The woman is shunned for not remaining pure. But what about the baby's father? Is he ever held responsible for his role in making this baby, since it does take two to make a baby? To my knowledge, I've never seen that happen. Conservative Christians also oppose sex-ed in our public schools, because they tend to shun any kind of education that would keep us well-informed and in check with reality, believing instead that abstinence-only sex education is the only realistic way to prevent unplanned pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases. Studies have shown, however, that abstinence-only sex education doesn't work, and since kids will be kids and will not always think before they act (even the best-behaved Christian kids do stupid things every now and then), the best sex education you can give them is the kind that keeps them smart and well-informed, not the kind that keeps them ignorant, ill-informed, and unrealistically expects them to save themselves for marriage. The list goes on and on, but it proves once again that if you're going to preach on a hot-button issue like abortion, then claim to be Pro-Life on the issue, don't preach it unless you intend on supporting the child's growth and development through the years after the child is born. This means feeding and caring for the poor, the needy, and the homeless, and providing help and support, not judgment and condemnation, for unwed mothers and their babies. This means making contraceptives available and affordable for all so that an abortion becomes unnecessary, and a child isn't born into abuse, neglect, poverty, and despair. This means sex education, not abstinence-only sex education, for all children, not just those who are or may be at risk of becoming unwed teen parents. This means pregnancy-prevention programs for at-risk teens. The list goes on. I honestly don't see any conservative Christians getting involved, though, and I call that a shame and a disgrace. Instead, they cry, "Abortion is murder," do their Walk For Life campaigns and other protests, then go home, eat supper with their families, pat themselves on the back for doing their good deed of the day, go to church to sing their praises to the Lord, and ignore the issue hoping that it will go away on its own. What they are not doing is the one thing Jesus commands us to do, and that is: Love your neighbor as yourself. I think what he really means is, "If you want to see an end to abortion, then get out there and get your hands dirty. Get involved!" In other words, don't judge, condemn, or control a woman's body. Start or get involved in programs that are all about pregnancy prevention. Don't just convert people into Christians and pat yourself on the back for it. Get out there and help the poor, the needy, and the homeless. Get out there and offer your ongoing support for an unwed mother struggling to raise her baby. And most importantly of all, stop imposing yourself on others, judging those whose circumstances you do not understand, and condemning those who disagree with you. A message for all conservative Christians, but sadly, one that will not be heeded anytime soon.

[antiochian]

I used to be strongly anti-choice. Something sticks out in my memory. A few years ago I watched a broadcast of the demonstration in Washington DC on the Roe V Wade anniversary on a religious TV channel. Numerous religious leaders got up and spoke, including an Orthodox rabbi who then went into an anti-gay tirade. It dawned on me that many if not most of my "pro-life 'brethren'" were also against my equal rights as a human being. How pro-life is that?

This is a hard issue, to be sure. I'll probably never get a woman pregnant, and I'll never be pregnant, so I can't imagine what a hard choice it is. Life is filled with greater and lesser evils. Catholics say birth control is evil (well, the Vatican, anyway). Is it more evil for a couple living in poverty to have fourteen kids, who may be neglected, abused, and starved to death, or to not follow Church protocol, risk "mortal sin" and prevent those lives? Is it more evil for a mom to allow a severely ill fetus to be born and subject it to further suffering? I don't have the answers. Just food for thought.

[Dakota]

Did I spell your member name right? Anyway, I read your post, and I agreed with it 100%. That was another side of the abortion issue that I missed, plus I've failed to mention Octomom, the woman with the octuplets and the six other children, while I was ranting and raving about my Anti-Choice views. If Octomom isn't a wake-up call to the Anti-Choice groups, then I don't know what is! I mean, what was she thinking, and how in the world is she going to take care of 14 kids on her own? Even if she were married and had her parent's help, she still won't be able to provide for her children's emotional and developmental needs. There are too many little mouths to feed, plus things are going to look quite interesting when these kids grow up into teenagers! Will some of these kids grow up totally screwed up because of their unusual upbringing and the fact that Octomom has become one of the most despised women on the planet and probably doesn't have any more friends? Only time will tell. It isn't for us to judge. I do pray for this woman, though, and I hope she is doing okay. And if she had her life to live over, I am hoping that, if she still wanted a baby, she would think before she acts and not end up with so many at a time. Anyway, Antiochian, thanks for your post. I'm beginning to see a side of the abortion issue that I never saw before, and it's finally opening my eyes and my heart and turning me into a more compassionate Christian. I just have one little question, though: Why are Death Row inmates put to death more humanely than unborn children having abortions performed on them? Even animals are euthanized in a way that doesn't cause them any pain and suffering. And yet, unborn children being aborted are poisoned, torn apart, crushed, burned, stabbed (partial-birth abortion), and sucked violently out of their wombs while still alive and suffering obvious pain. If a mother did that to her baby after it was born, she'd end up in prison and be treated like a hardened criminal. It just doesn't make any sense to me, that's all, especially since unborn children committed no crime except that they existed at the wrong time, while most Death Row inmates are obviously not innocent of their crimes but don't have methods used on them in abortions that would cause them extreme pain and suffering. Plus, Death Row inmates usually get a fair trial before they are convicted and sentenced to death, and receive the support of their friends and family (if Christian, their last rights from a priest or minister), before they are put to death. Unborn children do not. But then again, a conservative Christian can't or at least shouldn't call themselves Pro-Life if they oppose abortion while continuing to support gun ownership and the death penalty, right?

[BruceChris]

Originally Posted by BruceChris

JoAnn, do you have any specific methodologies,
for effectively and systematically reducing unwanted pregnancies through appropriate education and incentives, or other mechanisms?

Originally Posted by Joann

I guess I love babies so much, I tend to get very angry and let my emotions get in the way when the issue of abortion comes up. I think to myself, "Why would anyone want to kill an innocent unborn child?" Especially when I view abortion images on the Internet, images of dead aborted babies. They are obviously human, and they were obviously alive before they were aborted, and they obviously suffered a great deal of pain while being aborted. That much is pretty easy to see. But no one wakes up in the morning and says, "I think I'll kill my unborn child just for the fun of it." I mean, do any of us actually know anyone that callous? Probably not. At least, I hope not. We all love babies, and we all hope that a pregnancy makes it to the end without an abortion being necessary. In other words, we all want every child to be a wanted child, not a child who ends up aborted, abused, or neglected because its mother didn't want it. However, what I didn't see was my own blindness. I just wasn't looking at the big picture. I mean, do these very same conservative Christians who oppose and want to outlaw abortion show any compassion and care for these infants and their mothers after the infants are born? No, they do not. In fact, and correct me if I'm wrong here, they oppose any and all social service programs that help the poor, the needy, and the homeless, putting these babies at risk of becoming poor, needy, and homeless. If an infant dies because its parents were too poor to properly care for it and give it proper medical attention, the thinking goes, and this is based on what my own way of thinking was, too, by the way, "They never should have had that kid in the first place!" And yet these same conservative Christians oppose the use of contraceptives, which, if made affordable, would have prevented the child from being born into poverty and despair. If a teenage girl or young woman becomes an unwed mother, she is shunned by her church, especially if she is single and raising her child on her own. Why is she shunned? Not because of the baby, but because this woman had unprotected sex without being married. The woman is shunned for not remaining pure. But what about the baby's father? Is he ever held responsible for his role in making this baby, since it does take two to make a baby? To my knowledge, I've never seen that happen. Conservative Christians also oppose sex-ed in our public schools, because they tend to shun any kind of education that would keep us well-informed and in check with reality, believing instead that abstinence-only sex education is the only realistic way to prevent unplanned pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases. Studies have shown, however, that abstinence-only sex education doesn't work, and since kids will be kids and will not always think before they act (even the best-behaved Christian kids do stupid things every now and then), the best sex education you can give them is the kind that keeps them smart and well-informed, not the kind that keeps them ignorant, ill-informed, and unrealistically expects them to save themselves for marriage. The list goes on and on, but it proves once again that if you're going to preach on a hot-button issue like abortion, then claim to be Pro-Life on the issue, don't preach it unless you intend on supporting the child's growth and development through the years after the child is born. This means feeding and caring for the poor, the needy, and the homeless, and providing help and support, not judgment and condemnation, for unwed mothers and their babies. This means making contraceptives available and affordable for all so that an abortion becomes unnecessary, and a child isn't born into abuse, neglect, poverty, and despair. This means sex education, not abstinence-only sex education, for all children, not just those who are or may be at risk of becoming unwed teen parents. This means pregnancy-prevention programs for at-risk teens. The list goes on. I honestly don't see any conservative Christians getting involved, though, and I call that a shame and a disgrace. Instead, they cry, "Abortion is murder," do their Walk For Life campaigns and other protests, then go home, eat supper with their families, pat themselves on the back for doing their good deed of the day, go to church to sing their praises to the Lord, and ignore the issue hoping that it will go away on its own. What they are not doing is the one thing Jesus commands us to do, and that is: Love your neighbor as yourself. I think what he really means is, "If you want to see an end to abortion, then get out there and get your hands dirty. Get involved!" In other words, don't judge, condemn, or control a woman's body. Start or get involved in programs that are all about pregnancy prevention. Don't just convert people into Christians and pat yourself on the back for it. Get out there and help the poor, the needy, and the homeless. Get out there and offer your ongoing support for an unwed mother struggling to raise her baby. And most importantly of all, stop imposing yourself on others, judging those whose circumstances you do not understand, and condemning those who disagree with you. A message for all conservative Christians, but sadly, one that will not be heeded anytime soon.

JoAnn, I am so proud of you. You're wonderful!

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by Dakota

a conservative Christian can't or at least shouldn't call themselves Pro-Life if they oppose abortion while continuing to support gun ownership and the death penalty, right?

These are my thoughts exactly.

[Jennifer5]

I had a lot to say, but then everything became irrelevant as the conversation went on. I'm impressed by the way this conversation took place. All of you managed to make incredibly important points about abortion, a very sensitive topic, while respecting each other's opinions.

[Dakota]

I wasn't really all that respectful in the beginning. My conservative Christian mindset kind of got in the way there for awhile because I wasn't looking at the big picture until I read all of these posts and began opening my mind up a little more. I still oppose abortion, and I always will. I will continue to strongly believe that abortion is murder because of the pain and suffering the baby is forced to endure during an abortion (why not deliver the baby alive and fully intact instead, regardless of its gestational age, then name the baby and give him or her a proper burial so that the baby can be counted as a family member and not thrown away and ignored like trash?). However, it is an even bigger abomination to control a woman's body and force her to keep a child she doesn't want and cannot afford to raise, causing the child to grow up in abuse, neglect, poverty, and despair, and without a mother's love. And even if the child was placed in an adopted home, there is no guarantee that the child will be brought up in a loving and nurturing home, even if the child was adopted by Christian parents (who would only indoctrinate their new child with false biblical doctrine and teach them to hate, judge, and condemn those who do not conform to or agree with all or most church doctrine, anyway). Some foster care and adopted homes are abusive and neglectful, and in very rare cases, a child dies. A child's cries are never heard until it is too late. Some foster parents are in it only for the money. They don't care about the child's welfare at all. The tragedy goes on and on. Until we fix the system, children will continue to suffer, and abortion will remain the only option for some women facing an unplanned pregnancy. What right do we have to ban the personal choices of others when we simply do not understand the circumstances involved?

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I wasn't really all that respectful in the beginning.

Your opinions are strong ones, everyones are regarding this topic. You made it clear that they were your opinions though, not the right opinion. With a touchy subject, that's very challenging to do. I admire you for that and even more for going one step further to truly listen to the stories of others.

[Dakota]

I am quite stubborn and opinionated, that's for sure! Especially when I'm passionate about something.

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I am quite stubborn and opinionated, that's for sure! Especially when I'm passionate about something.

I think highly of that trait, I'm like that too.