Did Jesus judge or not judge?

[Rick336]

I've heard many Christians say that Jesus did not come to judge. But according to at least one verse in the New testament, he actually did. In fact, he said:

John 9:39(Contemporary English Version)
"I came to judge the people of this world. I am here to give sight to the blind and to make blind everyone who can see."

But then later in the book of John he says:

John 12:47(Contemporary English Version)
"I am not the one who will judge those who refuse to obey my teachings. I came to save the people of this world, not to be their judge."

Didn't Jesus just contradict himself? First he says that he came to judge and then he says he's not the one who will judge.

So does he judge or not?

Rick

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Rick336

I've heard many Christians say that Jesus did not come to judge. But according to at least one verse in the New testament, he actually did. In fact, he said:

John 9:39(Contemporary English Version)
"I came to judge the people of this world. I am here to give sight to the blind and to make blind everyone who can see."

But then later in the book of John he says:

John 12:47(Contemporary English Version)
"I am not the one who will judge those who refuse to obey my teachings. I came to save the people of this world, not to be their judge."

Didn't Jesus just contradict himself? First he says that he came to judge and then he says he's not the one who will judge.

So does he judge or not?

Rick

Rick,

I once went to Sears and picked out what I thought (under the flourescent lights) were a perfectly attractive pair of khaki slacks. I paid for them and put them in a bag and carried them out to the car. Something made me take them out of the bag and look at them in the sunlight before I got into the car. They were the most GOD-AWFUL color of light, baby-puke green. They would have gone with NOTHING I owned. I went back into the store and the clerk gave me my money back. it was only in natural sunlight that these slacks were revealed to be the abomination that they truly were. The sunlight did not actively JUDGE the slacks but in the sunlight the judgement was inescapable.

In John's Gospel, Jesus is the "Light" and in the light of Christ all things judge themselves because they are fully revealed and fully known in that light. This is how it is possible for Jesus to say BOTH that he DOES and DOES NOT judge.

Jesus doesnt stand in the midst of us and point the finger and say "You Suck" and "You're cool" but when he stands in the midst of us we all know the degree to which we do and do not suck.

Does that help?

U-dog

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Rick336

I've heard many Christians say that Jesus did not come to judge. But according to at least one verse in the New testament, he actually did. In fact, he said:

John 9:39(Contemporary English Version)
"I came to judge the people of this world. I am here to give sight to the blind and to make blind everyone who can see."

This Jesus is coming across in an rather cryptic way, don't you think? Making people blind? Others so that they can see?

He's coming across as the Esoteric Christ...the Martial Arts Jesus. He might as well have said "I am here to confound you." Not bad, considering that this is what can be expected from Enlightened Beings, no?

But then later in the book of John he says:

John 12:47(Contemporary English Version)
"I am not the one who will judge those who refuse to obey my teachings. I came to save the people of this world, not to be their judge."

Didn't Jesus just contradict himself? First he says that he came to judge and then he says he's not the one who will judge.

So does he judge or not?

A different kind of expression than the first. This Jesus- as I see it- is yakking about his self-perception- what he is here to do- that is- 'save'- rather than having a teaching moment like is seen in the first statement.

The trouble comes when one pops out the word judge. Once that is done, all context is lost. As such, a yes or no answer is robbed of any full meaning and is as much reductive as the most 'blind' anti-gay statement.

I agree with U-dog: it's a about perception. Though I would not go as far to say that the matter is about judging ourselves. That seems to me to be a rather Calvinistic view. Another slap on the wrist. Jesus' first statement seems to me to be something more akin to a Zen Koan. As such, it makes no logical sense. And that is what Koans - as such- are meant to do- confound the left-brained way of looking at things.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Rick,

In John's Gospel, Jesus is the "Light" and in the light of Christ all things judge themselves because they are fully revealed and fully known in that light. This is how it is possible for Jesus to say BOTH that he DOES and DOES NOT judge.

Jesus doesnt stand in the midst of us and point the finger and say "You Suck" and "You're cool" but when he stands in the midst of us we all know the degree to which we do and do not suck.

Does that help?

U-dog

I'm still don't fully understand. When you talk about seeing the world through, "the light of Christ" what exactly is this "light" and how does it help people understand scripture that is otherwise confusing?

Rick

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Rick336

I'm still don't fully understand. When you talk about seeing the world through, "the light of Christ" what exactly is this "light" and how does it help people understand scripture that is otherwise confusing?

Rick

In John's understanding, Jesus is the manifestation -- the revelation -- of the heart, mind, and essence of the divine. His life, his teachings, his miracles, this self-sacrificial death and his death-destroying resurrection ... all of it. In that sense, Jesus life and death are therefore a bright "light" shining on the face of God. We know what the Divine is, wants, values, loves etc. It also is a bright light that shines on us and we are able to see who we really are and to what degree we are inline with or out of line with the nature of the Divine.

[Alecto]

He says he came to judge, but will not. He's allowed to change his mind y'know.

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by u-dog

The sunlight did not actively JUDGE the slacks but in the sunlight the judgement was inescapable.

In John's Gospel, Jesus is the "Light" and in the light of Christ all things judge themselves because they are fully revealed and fully known in that light.

Jesus doesnt stand in the midst of us and point the finger and say "You Suck" and "You're cool" but when he stands in the midst of us we all know the degree to which we do and do not suck.

That's an excellent way of putting it.

Originally Posted by Daniel

The trouble comes when one pops out the word judge. Once that is done, all context is lost. As such, a yes or no answer is robbed of any full meaning and is as much reductive as the most 'blind' anti-gay statement.

Do not judge arbitrarily is what we should say, so the distinction between that and meaningful judgement, like decisions, is immediately understood.

Originally Posted by Rick336

I'm still don't fully understand. When you talk about seeing the world through, "the light of Christ" what exactly is this "light" and how does it help people understand scripture that is otherwise confusing?

Think of the Bible as simply a history book. The “light” is the intelligence in your mind that shows you deeper meaning in regard to anything. The Scriptures are no different.

Some of the Scriptures are meant to convey that understanding, that the Golden Rule is what is most important, because it's what's most fair for everyone. That is that light.

The Bible tells a story of not only a consciousness beyond your own mind, but ultimately, that this consciousness beyond my own mind, is literally of my own mind.

There is a God who is Love, and we are and integral part of it. You see that, and you see that Original Sin is the belief in sin itself. You see that, and you realize that Judgment Day is the day you realize that every day is "judgment day," and that the Second "Coming" of Christ is impossible, because God/Love/Heaven/Christ can’t be here anymore than it already is, and that it’s our inability to perceive it, not the lack of it’s existence.

And when enough people get that (critical mass), it will flashover so bright that everyone else will see it too---that everything is heaven/God/Love and that we never left the Garden.

And that we were never judged to begin with, the “judgment” manifests itself as seeing how well we’ve measured up to that truth---understood as the Golden Rule, which is infinite in it’s application---that’s the judgment of the light, understood through Scripture as Jesus and the meaning of crucifixion - there must be a resurrection. Physical-life is the crucifixion part.

Remember, light is made up of all the colors. However bright the light, so bright are the colors (beauty). Think cotton candy Liquid Diamonds.

So that’s how the “light” helps me to understand Scripture. And in understanding that, I see that that truth surrounds me. Scripture is just one place where the story of the light can be found.

U-dog get’s it, though he may not agree with the way I put things.

[Daniel]

Christians have an affinity for Judgment while Asian beliefs (Buddhism included) veer towards the concept of Karma.

The latter term has been derided and misunderstood in our culture, but it might be useful in this discussion insofar as it throws a light on how one can perceive one's actions- or lack thereof. For this to happen, it is understood that one must have an ethical system. And for one to have an ethical system, one must start to observe the connection between actions that bring one's self and others peace/happiness and those that do not.

This is a matter of perception, self-perception in particular.

Is a belief in God necessary for this to happen?

Nope.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Emproph

So that’s how the “light” helps me to understand Scripture.

If that "light" helps you to understand scripture, then what do these two verses mean? The first one says that God saves by faith alone. The second one says that it's not by faith alone.


Ephesians 2:8-9(King James Version)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.


James 2:24 (King James Version)

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


If you believe that God made all things, then you believe that God gave us the gift of reason and logic. To look at the two verses above through the "light" of logic, they don't make sense because they clearly contradict each other.



Rick

[Pablo Rafael]

Originally Posted by Rick336

Ephesians 2:8-9(King James Version)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.


James 2:24 (King James Version)

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


If you believe that God made all things, then you believe that God gave us the gift of reason and logic. To look at the two verses above through the "light" of logic, they don't make sense because they clearly contradict each other.

Rick

These two verses illustrate an important point. If someone wants to take the Bible literally, they are up against a logical paradox here and in many places in the Bible. Coming from a literalistic background I know how difficult it is for conservatives to try to explain away the contradictions.

All Bible study is a matter of interpretation, and all human interpretation is fallible and incomplete. I like the Anglican concept of the three-legged stool upon which the church stands. The legs are tradition, reason and the Bible. Tradition is useful in helping us understand our faith, but it is fallible and changes with times and situations. Likewise reason is useful but also fallible. The Bible tells us of God, but it was written by people who did not understand God perfectly and who were part of a specific culture in a specific time. (BTW: Gene Robinson really explains this well in his book In the Eye of the Storm , an excellent read.)

These passages are both valuable to me for they are clear statements of two very important aspects of the Christian faith. I think a main theme of the Bible and Christianity is that we are saved by God's grace alone. It is God's love that comes to us. I did not somehow become worthy enough to gain God's favor. He loves me with all my faults. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus show me that great love.

But if I begin to think, like the Christians that James was addressing in his letter, that I have no active part in my faith and I can just sit back and do nothing, the idea of "cheap grace" where I don't have to show love to others, then I am reminded that a faith that does nothing and shows no love to others is no faith at all.

So are the verses contradictory? Yes, but they are two sides of a coin. Both are needed. So often our lives are contradictory. Nothing is black and white it seems.

Likewise with the idea of judging. Did Christ come to judge? Should I judge others? I should never be "judgemental" or judge others in a way to cut them down. But I should judge people and events with reason and love so as to take action and make the world around me a brighter place. Jesus did not judge the Samaritan woman at the well though the Jewish people around her certainly did judge her negatively. However Jesus is quite harsh with the conservative fundamentalists of his day, the Pharisees.

The Bible and our entire Christian faith is alive, and activly responding to new situations all the time. A "one size fits all" understanding of the Christian faith doesn't work in my opinion. It would be nice if faith were neat and well defined, but it is like the rest of human existence, sloppy and undefined and also wonderfully diverse.

[u-dog]

Thats you Pablo. I am in awe of your insights and spiritual maturity. A spiritual "Redwood" if ever there was one.


Rick,

If you overheard me on Monday talking to my son and saying that human life is sacred and that its wrong to kill and then overheard me saying to my son on Thursday that if he dented the car one more time I was going to kill him, would you think that I was being inconsistent and hypocritical? Or would you think that I was using hyperbole in one case and not in the other?

Paul is writing to a group of people some of whom believed that it was possible to manipulate the Divine into loving them by being good little boys and girls and following the rules. Paul hates that idea and states: "We are saved by the Grace (unmerited love) of God alone and not by works!"

James is writing to another group of people, probably a hundred or more years later where some people think that since God has saved them without recourse to their works that they therefor don't have to do squat. To them James says "Faith without works is Dead"

It sounds like they are saying diametrically opposed things ... but they are not. They are using the same words but they are using them differently and addressing different concepts.

If you sat the two of them down together you would discover that Paul and James both believe that salvation is accomplished solely by the love of God. and they would both believe that when a person HAS faith, that you will know it because it will result in good works.

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by u-dog

If you sat the two of them down together you would discover that Paul and James both believe that salvation is accomplished solely by the love of God. and they would both believe that when a person HAS faith, that you will know it because it will result in good works.

That’s the way I would interpret put it too.

Re “Judgment”:

Originally Posted by Daniel

it [karma] might be useful in this discussion insofar as it throws a light on how one can perceive one's actions- or lack thereof.

This is a matter of perception, self-perception in particular.

And don’t we tend to project what we perceive?

As a friend of ours once said:

Originally Posted by paul

There's a verse in the bible "...the word of God alive and powerful and...is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart and mind..."

Wouldn't it be funny if the intention of the bible is not to tell us how to do stuff (kind of like the Pharisees thought) so much as it is to reveal who and how we are? For instance one can choose: " Thou shalt Love..." "God is love." "Love keeps no record of wrongs." Or one can choose: Hell is created by "God" for those who have done wrong. Depending on the choice one makes, kind of reveals where a person is at, no?

Rick, the contradictions you’ve pointed out can be explained through the "light" of reason and logic, AKA interpretation, which, as I’m sure you can understand, is not unique to readers of the Bible. Isn’t that what book clubs are all about? (Which in a sense makes religions just glorified book clubs, some of whom use their books as clubs…but I digress. )

If you’re trying to show that the Bible is in error, you have my vote, there are plenty of fundamental things in it and of it that cannot be interpreted away (which I regularly use in arguments with selective-fundamentalists).

So, what exactly are you looking for here?

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by u-dogg

It sounds like they are saying diametrically opposed things ... but they are not. They are using the same words but they are using them differently and addressing different concepts.

But if our eternal life is in the balance, shouldn't the Holy Spirit have made the Bible explicitly clear to anyone who reads it so that even someone with an IQ of 50 has a chance to enter the pearly gates?

I mean, if we are all faced with hell if we don't get this right, why would God's book be filled with confusing contradictions?

More examples:

Those that seek me early shall find me. - Proverbs 8:17

Then shall they call upon me but I will not answer; they shall
seek me early, but shall not find me. - Proverbs 1:28

______________________________________________

... God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. - James 1:13

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham. - Genesis 22:1

_____________________________________________

... for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever.- Jeremiah 3:12

Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever.- Jeremiah 17:4

____________________________________________

Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.-Matthew 5:22

[Jesus said] Ye fools and blind.- Matthew 23:17

____________________________________________

Honor thy father and mother.- Exodus 20:12

If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and
wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own
life also, he cannot be my disciple.- Luke 14:26

And these are just a few examples. There are many more.



Think about it. What if somebody gave a great party and the directions to the party said: "Go left or right, go north or south, go 10 miles or 20 miles, get off at this exit or that exit, turn here but don't turn here."Don't you think there would be lots of people who would get lost trying to find the party?

If hell is our destination if we can't find the way to heaven, then why not make the directions to heaven very clear?

God said:

The gate to life is very narrow. The road that leads there is so hard to follow that only a few people find it. - Luke 13.24


And this is the plan of a God who supposedly loves us?

Doesn't it make more sense that this stuff came from ancient myths a long time ago and a group of old men put it together in a book and never bothered to proof read it?

Originally Posted by Emproph

If you’re trying to show that the Bible is in error, you have my vote, there are plenty of fundamental things in it and of it that cannot be interpreted away (which I regularly use in arguments with selective-fundamentalists).

So, what exactly are you looking for here?

I'm trying to figure out how you explain the many flaws in scripture if the Holy Spirit (God) inspired the words?


Rick

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Rick336

But if our eternal life is in the balance, shouldn't the Holy Spirit have made the Bible explicitly clear to anyone who reads it so that even someone with an IQ of 50 has a chance to enter the pearly gates?

I mean, if we are all faced with hell if we don't get this right, why would God's book be filled with confusing contradictions?

More examples:

Those that seek me early shall find me. - Proverbs 8:17

Then shall they call upon me but I will not answer; they shall
seek me early, but shall not find me. - Proverbs 1:28

______________________________________________


I'm trying to figure out how you explain the many flaws in scripture if the Holy Spirit (God) inspired the words?


Rick

Rick,

I have a lot on my plate this afternoon so consider this to be a down payment on the questions that you pose.

Let me start by saying that NO words - biblical or otherwise - have meaning apart from their context. Tone of voice, facial expression, preceding sentences, following sentences, shared but unexpressed experiences can all change the meaning of words. Everyone but the most severely autistic persons know this to be true. I know that you understand this as well. So when you lift a few words from one part of scripture and a couple from somewhere else (words that are sometimes as distant in time and place from each other as they are from us today) and demand that they walk in tight lock step with each other I suspect that you are either being naive or pugnacious. (I'm OK with that incidentally ... I've been having this same discussion with my best friend in all the world for the last 35 years and you are very like him)

For now, lets just deal with your examples from Proverbs. Take a step back and some preliminary questions: Who is speaking? Who will we find if we seek early in the morning? Who are the ones who will not find the one who is speaking?

Its not God who is speaking. It is "Sophia" or Holy Wisdom. "Wisdom" is a theological concept not unlike the New Testament concept of the "Logos" THe Hebrews believed that "Sophia" the Wisdom of God was present at the creation and that it was through Sophia that all things were made. Sophia is a feminine aspect of the Divine.

So, who will we find if we seek her early? We will find wisdom. Divine Wisdom. Who is it that WON'T find divine wisdom even if they look for her early? well... basically ... people who don't look for her. People who don't look for wisdom ... don't find it. People who DO look for wisdom find it. Not a contridiction really. As long as you read it in context.

Wisdom calls aloud in the street,
she raises her voice in the public squares;

21 at the head of the noisy streets [c] she cries out,
in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

22 "How long will you simple ones [d] love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?

23 If you had responded to my rebuke,
I would have poured out my heart to you
and made my thoughts known to you.

24 But since you rejected me when I called
and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand,

25 since you ignored all my advice
and would not accept my rebuke,

26 I in turn will laugh at your disaster;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you-

27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.

28 "Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me.

29 Since they hated knowledge
and did not choose to fear the LORD,

30 since they would not accept my advice
and spurned my rebuke,

31 they will eat the fruit of their ways
and be filled with the fruit of their schemes.

32 For the waywardness of the simple will kill them,
and the complacency of fools will destroy them;

33 but whoever listens to me will live in safety
and be at ease, without fear of harm."

All this passage (proverbs 1:21-33) is saying is that stupidity is its own reward. The other passage (proverbs 8:1-36) is saying that wisdom is the foundation of everything and people who seek wisdom do better than those who don't. Where is the problem?

Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?

2 On the heights along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;

3 beside the gates leading into the city,
at the entrances, she cries aloud:

4 "To you, O men, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.

5 You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, gain understanding.

6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.

7 My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.

8 All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.

9 To the discerning all of them are right;
they are faultless to those who have knowledge.

10 Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,

11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.

12 "I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.

13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.

14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have understanding and power.

15 By me kings reign
and rulers make laws that are just;

16 by me princes govern,
and all nobles who rule on earth. [a]

17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.

18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.

19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.

20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,

21 bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.

22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [b] , [c]
before his deeds of old;

23 I was appointed [d] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,

31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

32 "Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.

33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.

34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.

35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.

36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death."

[awediot]

1 Cor 4
1So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. 2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His Glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I Corinthians 6:2
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?




Romans 14:10-12
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.


1 Samuel 16:7
7But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

John 7:24
Judge righteous judgment.


~Bit of a mixed bag...but it is clear that some sort of accountability awaits us in the future, and it will be at the hand of divine inspiration.

I've come to believe that by "judgment day" we will already have sorted ourselves as either goats or sheep. God won't have to cast those who walk away from Him, anywhere.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Rick,

Its not God who is speaking. It is "Sophia" or Holy Wisdom. "Wisdom" is a theological concept not unlike the New Testament concept of the "Logos" THe Hebrews believed that "Sophia" the Wisdom of God was present at the creation and that it was through Sophia that all things were made. Sophia is a feminine aspect of the Divine.

It is God speaking. Divine wisdom means wisdom from God. So God is speaking through Sophia. (at least, according to what the authors of ancient scripture want us to believe)

Originally Posted by u-dogg

So, who will we find if we seek her early? We will find wisdom. Divine Wisdom. Who is it that WON'T find divine wisdom even if they look for her early? well... basically ... people who don't look for her.

It says those who reject "divine wisdom" (God) will suffer disaster.

But since you rejected me when I called
and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand,

since you ignored all my advice
and would not accept my rebuke,

I in turn will laugh at your disaster;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you-

So basically God (divine wisdom) who is speaking through Sophia and "rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind," will laugh and mock when we suffer a disaster.

That's typical of the contradictions found in this ancient belief. For instance, scripture has God saying, "Thou shalt not kill," yet God drowns the entire population of the world, orders the death of those who work on the sabbath, orders the death of children who curse their parents, orders babies to be smashed and pregnant women to be ripped up.

Yet, "God so loves the world."

It makes me wonder if the authors of the Bible actually read the thing before they adjourned their meeting and went home.

Rick

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Rick336

So basically God (divine wisdom) who is speaking through Sophia and "rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind," will laugh and mock when we suffer a disaster.

That's typical of the contradictions found in this ancient belief. For instance, scripture has God saying, "Thou shalt not kill," yet God drowns the entire population of the world, orders the death of those who work on the sabbath, orders the death of children who curse their parents, orders babies to be smashed and pregnant women to be ripped up.

Yet, "God so loves the world."

It makes me wonder if the authors of the Bible actually read the thing before they adjourned their meeting and went home.

Rick

God is no more held to the standard we are than a parent is to a ten year old.

While certain aspects of His treatment of us (particularly Old Testament) are undeniably brutal, that may mean we just do not understand either the real state of the world back then, or His perspective and the greater good that was achieved, not that He is in fact a brute.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Rick336

It is God speaking. Divine wisdom means wisdom from God. So God is speaking through Sophia. (at least, according to what the authors of ancient scripture want us to believe)

No, Rick, it is NOT God speaking through Sophia. The book of Proverbs is Poetic speech. The poet writes in order to get people to think and understand truth in a certain way and in order to evoke a response. In this case, the poet is anthropomorphizing an aspect or a characteristic of the divine and putting words into "her" mouth in order that we might understand an important truth -- that seeking the wisdom of the Divine is a worthwhile endeavor and ignoring the search for that wisdom is dangerous.

It says those who reject "divine wisdom" (God) will suffer disaster.

Let's say for the sake of argument, that "divine wisdom" consists solely of the truth that it is a bad idea to step in front of a speeding bus. In that case, those who reject "divine wisdom" WILL, in fact, suffer disaster. Those people will be run over by a speeding bus and that is a disaster. "Don't be a fool who ignores me!" cries divine wisdom, "...or you'll be run over by a speeding bus!" This is not reward and punishment, Rick, it just good advice. Of course Divine wisdom is a much more complex and subtle thing than simply the reality that stepping in front of a bus is a bad idea, but no matter how complex and subtle it is ... it's still a bad idea to ignore it.

So basically God (divine wisdom) who is speaking through Sophia and "rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind," will laugh and mock when we suffer a disaster.

Not at all. Wisdom (or Proverbs anthropomorphisis of it) DOES rejoice in the whole world because the wisdom of God is the foundation for its existence and permeates every aspect of it -- again, poetic speech. And it "delights" in humankind because, of all the aspects of the creation, human kind is the only aspect that can see (sometimes) and appreciate (sometimes) the existence of divine wisdom and its place in the created order.

On the other hand, wisdom also MOCKS humanity in the sense that it is in the light of divine wisdom that the foolishness of humanity is revealed. A poet might also say that "the light mocks a bad painting" since in the dark, a bad painting and the Mona Lisa look exactly the same, but in the light, one is revealed as a masterpiece and the other as a piece of shit.


Rick, this conversation seems kind of pointless to me, but we can continue it if you want to, I guess.

[Pablo Rafael]

Originally Posted by Rick336

But if our eternal life is in the balance, shouldn't the Holy Spirit have made the Bible explicitly clear to anyone who reads it so that even someone with an IQ of 50 has a chance to enter the pearly gates?

I mean, if we are all faced with hell if we don't get this right, why would God's book be filled with confusing contradictions?

Rick,

One of the saddest things for me as a Christian is that I see so many Christians who are absolutely unwilling to ever consider that the opinions and beliefs of others might be valid. They would not be willing to look at something in a new way no matter how convincing the evidence or how persuasive the story.

The oppression of gays by so many churches has stemmed from this. So many conservative Christians have held onto the idea that being gay is sinful. They are unwilling to even consider the possibility that being gay is part of God's plan for some of us. Despite knowing fine gay Christian people, despite the lack of Biblical evidence to support their position, despite the findings of science, they refuse even to consider any opinions that contradict thier own.

I see you on the opposite side of that coin. You seem resistant to even consider that their might be some worth in Christianity and that the Bible might have something of value.

I respect your right to think the way you do. You have a lot of valuable insight and experience. But I see you as totally unwiling even to enetertain the idea that those of us who value the Bible and the Christian faith might have some validity to the way that we believe.

You have to admit that the Christians you have met on these forums have been exceptionally understanding and non-argumentative. We have been wiling to look at your point of view and consider what you have to say. We have even agreed with a lot of your opinions. I ask that you give our ideas the same consideration we have given yours.

But on to the points you have made:

I don't believe that anyone is going to hell because they don't "get it right". In fact no one "gets it right". Some many people think they have to know and believe certain things to be saved. Belief is not in things; it is not in teachings and doctrines. We believe in the love of God that was shown to us through the work of Christ.

The Bible saves no one. The Bible is not God. It is only a partial and imperfect glimpse into the wonder that is God.

I believe that the Bible is unclear simply because God cannot be understood. I remember my high school chemistry teacher talking about electron shells. There are two electrons in orbit around the nucleus in the first shell. There are eight electrons in orbit in the second shell, etc. Then she said that there really are no shells and orbits at all, but in order to be more easily understood, the whole electron shell concept was devised to explain and illustrate the much more complex concept of quantam mechanics. I was totally unable to grasp the idea of quantam mechanics at the time (still am).

Likewise I think in the Bible God provides for us many different ways at looking at him. The Bible is an incomplete and simplified view of God. We are unable to grasp the majesty of God. We must be content in our human understanding to only get impartial understanding of God.

Why doesn't the Holy Spirit make things clear and plain? She can't make them clear and understood by human beings; we have not the experience or capability to understand.

Try explaining the idea of quantam mechanics or the ideas of string theory to elementry school students. Their minds are based in the physical here and now (The "concrete operational" stage in Paiget's stages of thinking). They are incapable of understanding it. But they can grasp that the universe operates in a wonderful way that is incomprehensible. The illustrations that a teacher uses to explain and illustrate these concepts are partial and imperfect, but they illustrate one aspect of the concept.

If the workings of God were totally clear and easily understood, God would be pretty small indeed.

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by Rick336

I'm trying to figure out how you explain the many flaws in scripture if the Holy Spirit (God) inspired the words?

What evidence do you have that the Holy Spirit (God) inspired the words of the Bible in the first place?