Did Jesus judge or not judge?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by awediot

By the usual definition of God as an independent, 'living', sentient, self aware and Creator entity (simply, a Being) that most atheists are addressing, Buddhism is atheistic.

No...far from everything. But some things become logically reducible to a yes/no, black/white answer...

Either you believe 'God' is an independent Being (as described above), or you don't... Either "IT" is (as we understand what a conscious entity is), or it isn't (despite our beliefs about it)... Every single person who allows them self to get the gist of the difference and understands the simple question, will be on one side or the other.

How well have you studied Buddhism? And by that I mean more than intellectual exercise. If you had, I don't think you would have made such the crude assertion that Buddhism is atheistic. That kind of statement serves only to hammer away at your point of view, which is, essentially, dualistic.

Yes. It is about asking questions. However, what you are forgetting is the frame of reference from which one asks questions. Buddhism has a very different frame of reference that the one you are using. While it posits that there is no ultimate deity, there are many higher realms in which gods and enlightened beings dwell.

And uncharitable person might assert that your god is among them.

Cosmology aside, Buddhism is more concerned with ethics, the generation of compassion, and the cessation of suffering. The emphasis is on doing rather than believing.

And of course, there is that - to Western ears- cryptic saying....

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!

I simply mention this to note that- from a Buddhist point of view- our conceptions of things can get in the Way.

(pun intended)

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by awediot

The true nature and experience of Hell is debatable... I do not believe it is a "torture chamber of an agaony beyonf imagination", or a literal lake of teeth gnashing fire... That IMO makes God a sadist...

I believe simply that for those who see God and understand what "Heaven" demands of us, and do not want it, what God allows them to walk away into, to escape, and defeat Him, is what we've dubbed "Hell". It is Pride fulfilled and the preference of Self. It is the point of no return and preference for freedom failure grants... He doesn't cast anyone there. We will turn to it, hide in it, of our own will. It exists because we want it to, not God...

Just curious as to how you came around to this belief? Not questioning whether it's right, wrong or anything else. Pure curiosity.

In regards to 'what God is', I believe that God is much more than any human brain is able to fathom. So it would seem possible then, that Zerbie's explanation is logical. Illogically speaking, from the human brain perspective, but logical to those who could understand God. There are many explanations as to what God could be, from those believing God is a 'he' and looks just like us, to God merely being the energy that both binds the universe and constantly expands it at the same time.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by awediot

But it either knows itself to be God or it doesn't. It either is a conscious Being (and them some), or it is not.

God is a conscious entity/being, and also beyond simply an entity. God is both sides of the equation.

You make an interesting and to me, very surprising, leap. If God nature is also beyond the realm of one conscious entity, why would that mean it does not know itself to be God? I cannot imagine anything knowing itself to be God more thoroughly than in the state of being that lies beyond individual entities.


When we abstract It beyond any meaning, or disallow It to be as sentient and aware as we are, then WE take it's place by default.

This appears to me from so far out in left field I cannot even begin to fathom what train of thought led you there. All I intend to convey is that God is not limited.

Dean, what is this sharp division you see? Why are there these tight boundaries? I have failed to understand you, sorry.

Perhaps I should still be keeping my forum vacation; this conversation seems to be leading to more confusion than connection, and I feel like a big part of that end result.

[tdogg]

I getcha Z!

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by tdogg

I have a few questions for God:

If you really love us, and created people so you could have us around, why would you create this horrible thing called hell and throw these people, that you say you love, into it to burn and be tormented for eternity?

Yes. Hell makes absolutely no sense. Think about it. God creates us, lets us live for 80 years, and then if we don't worship him during our short lives, he tortures us forever? Not ten years. Not fifty years. Not one hundred years. Not even one thousand years. But FOREVER!

And just to make it interesting, he creates Satan to tempt us. And he writes a book with riddles and contradictions, and magical stories of talking animals and flying zombies.

And if that wasn't hard enough to believe, he hides from us. He makes himself invisible.

"Believe in me! Bow down and worship me or you will suffer FOREVER!!"

Scary stuff.

If we believe that hell actually exists then we have to accept that God is a sadistic psycho-freak because only a psycho-freak would torture billions of people for eternity when he could easily have chosen not to.

If we don't believe that hell exists, then we have to accept that the Bible is wrong.

Originally Posted by tdogg

Why would you create two humans, place them into a garden of wonder, show them and tell them about the tree you don't want them to touch, and they admonish them to never ever eat the lovely fruit from that wonderful tree, even though it will give you greater knowledge. Makes no sense.

Yes. The story of Adam and Eve is silly. Think about it. God snaps his fingers and "poof" the sun and the moon and the stars and the earth and the animals and trees all instantly materialize. But for some reason God uses dirt to create man and a rib from that man to create a woman. Go figure.

And from there it gets even sillier. There's a talking snake and a tree that knows everything and God tells Adam and Eve that if they dare eat the fruit of the tree he will kill them....but then later he changes his mind.

Originally Posted by tdogg

How is it that you were unable to create two perfect human beings, but was able to give your 'word' to men, have them rewrite it, translate and re-translate it, translate it into various languages, then translate it into various meanings, yet it's supposed to mean the same thing? The first sound much easier to accomplish.

I've heard people say that the meaning of the original text was lost in translation. But, if the Holy Spirit was around to help write the first text, where was he when the New Living Testament was written?

Originally Posted by tdogg

Ok, I have a lot more questions for you (such as world hunger, war, death, poverty, disease and what the hell were you thinking having dogs live only 10-15 years????) but for now, the above will do. I believe in you, but I think much of what I read in the bible just makes no sense to me.

As for me, I don't claim that there's not a God. I just haven't seen any credible evidence for his existence. But if God does exists, he can't be the God portrayed in the Bible because that God makes Satan look like Mr. Rogers.

But just in case God is real and wants to kill me.......a snake made me type all of this. Really!

Rick

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Daniel

While it posits that there is no ultimate deity,

Like I said...

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by awediot

Like I said...

I don't see any evidence of God. It's as simple as that. You got evidence? Show it to me.

I think the reason people need to believe in God is because they want to know why we are here in this world. What's our purpose? A belief in a creator answers that.

That is, until it begins to create problems.

Like this:

[awediot]

What do crazy extremes have to do with Buddhism being atheistic?

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

This appears to me from so far out in left field I cannot even begin to fathom what train of thought led you there. All I intend to convey is that God is not limited.

Dean, what is this sharp division you see? Why are there these tight boundaries? I have failed to understand you, sorry.

Perhaps I should still be keeping my forum vacation; this conversation seems to be leading to more confusion than connection, and I feel like a big part of that end result.

If God is self-aware, a Being with at least a similar consciousness that we recognize as sentient (as compared to a rock), then He gets to define Himself... If God is not, then we get to define what it is.

A living God is objective and we must accommodate our beliefs as relative to His absolute truth. An incomprehensible, abstraction conforms to us.

Do you feel differently when you think God cares about us, rather than think there is nothing there which can actually do what we call "care"?

[awediot]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Just curious as to how you came around to this belief? Not questioning whether it's right, wrong or anything else. Pure curiosity.

Applied critical thinking, blasphemous questioning, Holy Spirit inspired discernment, mad speculation, resorting to faith and reading between the lines... (to make a long story short and simple)...

In regards to 'what God is', I believe that God is much more than any human brain is able to fathom.

I can fathom that... how is that not also boxing Him in? In one fell swoop you've made the effort to understand Him a self-defeating folly...

So it would seem possible then, that Zerbie's explanation is logical. Illogically speaking, from the human brain perspective, but logical to those who could understand God. There are many explanations as to what God could be, from those believing God is a 'he' and looks just like us, to God merely being the energy that both binds the universe and constantly expands it at the same time.

Is God capable of knowing you've posted this? ...can HeSheIt in your opinion, think about it?

[drobs]

Here's a question of mine. Is God Evil?

If god knows all, controls all, is the alpha and omega, the creator of everything, where did evil come from?

The Bible says, the fruits of the spirit are:

Love, joy, peace, paitence, kindness, goodness, gratefulness, gentleness, and self control.

Where did those evil things (hate, malice, greed, etc) come from if not god?

As I see it God created evil, god created the definition of evil, and is therefore Evil.

Sorry don't mean to hijack this thread.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by awediot

What do crazy extremes have to do with Buddhism being atheistic?

However, If you are referring to Rick's post with accompanying pictures, he was responding to Tdogg.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Daniel

However, If you are referring to Rick's post with accompanying pictures, he was responding to Tdogg.

Actually I was responding to awediot because I thought he was responding to me. Sorry about that.

Rick

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by drobs

Here's a question of mine. Is God Evil?

If god knows all, controls all, is the alpha and omega, the creator of everything, where did evil come from?

The Bible says, the fruits of the spirit are:

Love, joy, peace, paitence, kindness, goodness, gratefulness, gentleness, and self control.

Where did those evil things (hate, malice, greed, etc) come from if not god?

As I see it God created evil, god created the definition of evil, and is therefore Evil.

Sorry don't mean to hijack this thread.

According to Isaiah , God created evil:



Isaiah 45:1-8(King James Version)

1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.



Rick

[Rick336]

So the question is, why would the God who "So loved the world" create evil? And then he creates temptation. And then he creates eternal punishment if we are lead into temptation.

"And lead us not into temptation......"

We have to pray to God and ask him not to lead us into temptation? Why is he doing that anyway?

....but deliver us from evil."

We wouldn't have to be delivered from evil if God hadn't created evil to begin with.

According to the Bible, most people will end up in hell anyway because God himself admits that the path to heaven is very difficult and that only a few will make it there. Doesn't this sound like the authors of the Bible were very confused about what they were writing? Of course it does. Think about it. Why would a God who "so loves the world" send so many people to eternal damnation? This makes absolutely no sense.

No sense = nonsense.


Rick

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Rick336

Actually I was responding to awediot because I thought he was responding to me. Sorry about that.

Rick

I was.

Go Go hybrid mode!

[awediot]

Originally Posted by drobs

Here's a question of mine. Is God Evil?

If god knows all, controls all, is the alpha and omega, the creator of everything, where did evil come from?

The Bible says, the fruits of the spirit are:

Love, joy, peace, paitence, kindness, goodness, gratefulness, gentleness, and self control.

Where did those evil things (hate, malice, greed, etc) come from if not god?

As I see it God created evil, god created the definition of evil, and is therefore Evil.

Sorry don't mean to hijack this thread.

Valid question that are about the topic IMO.

Originally Posted by Rick336

So the question is, why would the God who "So loved the world" create evil? And then he creates temptation. And then he creates eternal punishment if we are lead into temptation.

"And lead us not into temptation......"

We have to pray to God and ask him not to lead us into temptation? Why is he doing that anyway?

....but deliver us from evil."

We wouldn't have to be delivered from evil if God hadn't created evil to begin with.

According to the Bible, most people will end up in hell anyway because God himself admits that the path to heaven is very difficult and that only a few will make it there. Doesn't this sound like the authors of the Bible were very confused about what they were writing? Of course it does. Think about it. Why would a God who "so loves the world" send so many people to eternal damnation? This makes absolutely no sense.

No sense = nonsense.


Rick

Evil, the word "evil" is similar to "wrong", bad...negative. When seen as an adjective, it is just the extreme one... Anything that is not God is by default, "lesser", imperfect, flawed, residing on the "negative" side of the scale to some degree... This is not a "moral" state, nor does it require judgment. It just is.

The very act of creating was to make things that were no longer God, that were on varying levels independent and autonomous in their own right. That is all God could possibly create. They were specifically the NotGot, and this was a good, holy thing.

Taken to it's logical limit, God granted an element of His creation the very reflection and image of Himself and His defining qualities... He brought it to life. He gave some of it "consciousness" and sentience, a "Self" and a separate mind of it's own, pride, ambition, motivation, and Will. He made it self-aware, able to recognize Him as it's creator, and granted it the power to re-create the elements, the world, as it, not He, desired... They could do so in a beneficial, or destructive manner; in a way that was in harmony with His design, or that hindered it. Right/wrong...Good/evil...

God created the "alternative" to Himself, which made "evil" possible... We, make it evil... Our own influence raises the question of "morality" and ethics, and merits due consequences, results and "judgment".

God set us free from His totalitarian control, and this MUST allow for us to act in opposition to Him, to be "evil". To remove it is to unmake us... We are to learn to not create it and embrace the responsibility freedom demands of us, for ourselves.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by awediot

Valid question that are about the topic IMO.

The very act of creating was to make things that were no longer God, that were on varying levels independent and autonomous in their own right. That is all God could possibly create. They were specifically the NotGod, and this was a good, holy thing.

Why did God do this when he's the all-knowing creator of the universe and knew the eventual outcome anyway? Was he bored?

Originally Posted by awediot

Taken to it's logical limit, God granted an element of His creation the very reflection and image of Himself and His defining qualities... He brought it to life. He gave some of it "consciousness" and sentience, a "Self" and a separate mind of it's own, pride, ambition, motivation, and Will. He made it self-aware, able to recognize Him as it's creator, and granted it the power to re-create the elements, the world, as it, not He, desired... They could do so in a beneficial, or destructive manner; in a way that was in harmony with His design, or that hindered it. Right/wrong...Good/evil...

This is the "logical limit?" There's no logic to this. Why would he create us knowing that his creation would screw up and end up suffering for eternity? That seems like a cruel game.

Originally Posted by awediot

God created the "alternative" to Himself, which made "evil" possible... We, make it evil... Our own influence raises the question of "morality" and ethics, and merits due consequences, results and "judgment".

But why? What could possibly be the purpose? All he's doing is creating needless suffering when he doesn't have to. If he's the all-powerful God, then he can do anything. Right? Why create pain, cruelty, suffering, and eternal damnation if he doesn't have to?

Originally Posted by awediot

God set us free from His totalitarian control, and this MUST allow for us to act in opposition to Him, to be "evil". To remove it is to unmake us... We are to learn to not create it and embrace the responsibility freedom demands of us, for ourselves.

So it's a test? It's like a rat's maze we have to follow and he's watching all this from above? So basically we are his entertainment. And if billions of people mistakenly choose the wrong God and end up suffering in hell, that's all just part of the game?

Alrighty then.

Rick

[awediot]

Basically...WHY? The consummate question.

"That is all God could possibly create." -I hinted at what I believe to be the answer...


A perfectly self-contained, all encompassing state of Being (ie "GOD") should have no reason to create. There is nothing lacking...nothing TO create.

Nothing... THE NOTHING. The other than God... The NotGod... All God could create was what was different than Him, perhaps to give Him the experience of what Not being God could entail...by reducing Himself, not expanding.

We are not the ends. We are not the goal...We are a means and tools for Him to achieve a greater Goal for Himself, not us.

I've come to believe that each of us presents Him a way to view Himself and His own creation in a "New" way, through billions of unique, life shaped and one of a kind mind formed sets of eyes... Yes, He USES us. He is not there to serve us (ouch! slam that pride)...He doesn't merely "love" us, He in a fashion needs us. We are not just His children, we are an extension of His senses.

Being made in His image means we too are now sensitive Beings with worth and purpose that He cares about. He wants us in the end to choose to return to Him as the creatures we were made to be...But we don't have to... It is a profound option that horrifies, empowers and makes us what we are...

The damned prefer to be left to their own devices, and it hurts, not angers God...and He gives them what they want.

[tdogg]

I don't see how accepting a limitation on our brain and therefore not able to fully comprehend "God" is putting God in a box. I believe it is a proven scientific fact that humans only use a percentage of their brain ability. It makes natural sense that we have not yet evolved to the point where our brain can handle a true understanding of God.

That could be good, it could be bad. If God is really love, then much of what I read in the Bible makes no sense. If the Bible is fully true, then God is not love. I totally get what Rick is saying about that.

IMO the bible is a very useful tool taken with much prayer and meditation. There are also segments of lovely poetry and good advice. But it is certainly not giving us a crystal clear picture of God.