Did Jesus judge or not judge?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by awediot

It is when it convinces us we always have to put those qualifying "quote" marks around the word BAD, that was one tough lesson to grasp.

Again, you said earlier: "To meditate this way, one learns to be non-judgmental." To meditate in what way? The one that makes you feel guilty for having the arrogance to just call evil evil?

What do you mean by "judgment"?

Dean- As you've noted, this thread isn't about meditation. I've written enough about the matter.

To be non-judgmental is to practice the Golden Rule- to give to others what one wants for one's self.

Originally Posted by awdiot

If you ever meet any disembodied entities in your heightened state, you'll know that their existing in the spiritual realm, doesn't make them an Angel... It isn't those who are out to attack me, but those who are dying to help me in a really terrible way they do not understand, that I dread the most... I denied the portion of ill will the Universe has set aside for us, for as long as I could... It ain't "all good", or all God anymore.

It is the casualness in dismissing the difference between the angelic and demonic, the lack of judgment and brushing off the supposed negative for the sake of coping, that is precisely what I'm talking about...

You are ascribing motivations to me which I do not share. As such, you are making this discussion personal. I don't appreciate that.

Originally Posted by awediot

I'm not disparaging meditation, just some of the impulsive, trend driven reasons we can get drawn into it, and what it can do to a person who thinks judging things as right or wrong, will be the last "wrong" they defeat. Then it's just mush after that...

How much faith do place in your belief we're only talking of shadows here?

I am not impulsive. Neither have I been driven to meditate because I am intent on convincing myself that of things that aren't true. If the insinuation here is that my meditating is part of a trend, then I can only respond that an important person in my life once thought the same thing about my not being gay.

Both are untrue.

Re belief: I endeavor to practice compassion insofar as I am able to do so despite my failings and limitations.

A shadow is what is seen when an object comes between a light source and the viewer. As such, it is an absence of light. However, a shadow does not have substance. It isn't anti-matter.

Cue the Star Trek music.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by awediot

I'd never lay all that goes on in my mind upon God. He's not that twisted, and I'm not that smart... It's too divided against Itself for that to be very true...

I'm not trying to be provocative here but I have a question.

You say "God is not that twisted" but how is it that you know how God thinks?

I hear people say that they know what God wants or what God doesn't want. How do they know this?

Rick

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Rick336

I'm not trying to be provocative here but I have a question.

You say "God is not that twisted" but how is it that you know how God thinks?

I hear people say that they know what God wants or what God doesn't want. How do they know this?

Rick

I believe the Bible to be inspired (not inerrant), and see it's descriptions reflected in real life... There are patterns of human behavior and ways of nature that are inherent and consistent enough to be indications of how our designer "thinks"... I don't "know" what God thinks or how His mind works (true of myself at times too), but I can get a hint of His nature and character and methods...

I often wonder how some people don't.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by awediot

I believe the Bible to be inspired (not inerrant), and see it's descriptions reflected in real life... There are patterns of human behavior and ways of nature that are inherent and consistent enough to be indications of how our designer "thinks"... I don't "know" what God thinks or how His mind works (true of myself at times too), but I can get a hint of His nature and character and methods...

I often wonder how some people don't.

When you say, "I often wonder how some people don't," are you talking about people of other religions? Because they wonder the same thing about Christians. They see their own "inspired" guide book as reflected in real life too.

In fact, I think it's possible to see most any book reflected in real life. Take "The Wizard of Oz" for example.

Can't we see ourselves in Dorothy searching for happiness? Doesn't the tornado represent turmoil? The Yellow Brick Road can represent life's highway winding through good times and bad times. The scarecrow, the tin man, and the lion can represent our fellow travelers who are also searching for answers. The wizard can be knowledge. The witch can be our fear. The wicked forest can represent depression and the Emerald city happiness.

And when Dorothy says," If I ever go looking for my hearts desire again, I shouldn't look any further than my own back yard.... because if it isn't there, I never really lost it to begin with," ....that could mean that happiness comes from within, not externally.

My point here is that our imagination can twist anything to mean whatever we want it to.

Rick

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Rick336

When you say, "I often wonder how some people don't," are you talking about people of other religions? Because they wonder the same thing about Christians. They see their own "inspired" guide book as reflected in real life too.

I'm actually referring more to atheists.

In fact, I think it's possible to see most any book reflected in real life. Take "The Wizard of Oz" for example.

Can't we see ourselves in Dorothy searching for happiness? Doesn't the tornado represent turmoil? The Yellow Brick Road can represent life's highway winding through good times and bad times. The scarecrow, the tin man, and the lion can represent our fellow travelers who are also searching for answers. The wizard can be knowledge. The witch can be our fear. The wicked forest can represent depression and the Emerald city happiness.

And when Dorothy says," If I ever go looking for my hearts desire again, I shouldn't look any further than my own back yard.... because if it isn't there, I never really lost it to begin with," ....that could mean that happiness comes from within, not externally.

My point here is that our imagination can twist anything to mean whatever we want it to.

Rick

Then imagine Dorthy as a budding prostitute, Glenda an older madam, the scarecrow, tin man and lion failed tricks she cannot satisfy, Emerald City, Vegas where her dreams are legal and the Wizard, Pimp extraordinaire...

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by awediot

I'm actually referring more to atheists.

I've read most of the Bible and I don't see how it can be considered a rational life guide for the 21st century. I think that's why most Christians in 2009 pick and chose only the parts that they can live with and ignore the rest.

Originally Posted by awediot

Then imagine Dorthy as a budding prostitute, Glenda an older madam, the scarecrow, tin man and lion failed tricks she cannot satisfy, Emerald City, Vegas where her dreams are legal and the Wizard, Pimp extraordinaire...

Rick

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Rick336

I've read most of the Bible and I don't see how it can be considered a rational life guide for the 21st century. I think that's why most Christians in 2009 pick and chose only the parts that they can live with and ignore the rest.

True to an extent, but many do forcibly and with great difficulty conform their lives to it out of faith more than logical understanding...Both a good and bad thing.

Rick

See, not everything is open to interpretation (at least without making our self appear as a total moron... We can't just make ourselves believe whatever we want to. (though we can more than we usually think, but that's more a subconscious twisting of so called "evidence"...)

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Rick336

In fact, I think it's possible to see most any book reflected in real life. Take "The Wizard of Oz" for example.

Can't we see ourselves in Dorothy searching for happiness? Doesn't the tornado represent turmoil? The Yellow Brick Road can represent life's highway winding through good times and bad times. The scarecrow, the tin man, and the lion can represent our fellow travelers who are also searching for answers. The wizard can be knowledge. The witch can be our fear. The wicked forest can represent depression and the Emerald city happiness.

And when Dorothy says," If I ever go looking for my hearts desire again, I shouldn't look any further than my own back yard.... because if it isn't there, I never really lost it to begin with," ....that could mean that happiness comes from within, not externally.

My point here is that our imagination can twist anything to mean whatever we want it to.

Rick

And it's a great story, well-told too. I'd forgotten how spare and funny it is. The lion - especially- gets some scene stealing lines. And each scene moves to the next without any extra baggage.

The movie is a great example of a modern allegory and calls to mind Joseph Campbell's book The Power of Myth.

Can we see ourselves in the the story? Yes. But I don't think we have to twist things to make this happen. Why? Because every good story has a universal quality: that's what makes it a good story!


Jung wrote about dream images (and it's worth noting that the movie is set as a dream) as having personal and collective imagery. Do we have to belief this is so? Nope. But it does make for interesting dinner conversation. And more story telling. For me that is a key that should not be forgotten: it's less about the truth of the stories that we tell ourselves, but rather, our need to make sense of our lives through stories.

It's a bit like the Zen master who warns the student to not mistake the finger pointing towards the moon for the moon itself.

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by awediot

Then imagine Dorthy as a budding prostitute, Glenda an older madam, the scarecrow, tin man and lion failed tricks she cannot satisfy, Emerald City, Vegas where her dreams are legal and the Wizard, Pimp extraordinaire...

Again I harp on Labels. Atheist is a label. Buddhist is a label. Radical faerie is a label.

The label of atheist could be defined as someone who is unconvinced that a sentience exists that is responsible for the existence of life.

or

That this sentience exists but is not concerned with individual desires

or

That someone else's idea of the nature of this sentience isn't the same as mine.

So for example, I personlly don't think the bible is anything but poorly translated stories written by men that by now have morphed to into tales that would be unrecognizeable to the original human authors who wrote them. That "God" is simply a word describing a human concept and has no existence beyond that.

Do I get labelled "atheist?"

But wait!

I do believe that all living things have awareness; from humans to horses to ants to trees to bacteria. I also believe that the awarenss that all living things possess connect in some way (the tree can sense and seek nutrients produced by bacteria in the soil etc)

As humans we possess an awareness on many levels. Buddhism I would characterize as a discipline of thought discipline and thought focus that cultivates the potential of awareness of lovingkindness and compassion within one's self toward all. This nature is taught as our innocent core of our awareness that grows as we grow from conception to infancy.

The metaphysics of this nature has as many varied models or labels as any discipline. For each of us reality is only our perception of sensory input. It is all we truly possess. Perception is merely perception then. So how do we rate the validity of our reality? I would say by how alive it makes you feel. By how free it makes you feel. By how it culivates life and beauty.

So is it still acurate to call me an atheist? I sure don't

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

Again I harp on Labels. Atheist is a label. Buddhist is a label. Radical faerie is a label.

Just because you put a label on a jar doesn't mean that what is in the jar in on the label.

The label of atheist could be defined as someone who is unconvinced that a sentience exists that is responsible for the existence of life.

or

That this sentience exists but is not concerned with individual desires

or

That someone else's idea of the nature of this sentience isn't the same as mine.

So for example, I personlly don't think the bible is anything but poorly translated stories written by men that by now have morphed to into tales that would be unrecognizeable to the original human authors who wrote them. That "God" is simply a word describing a human concept and has no existence beyond that.

This reminds of the the Buddhist monk who stated that once something is written down, something is lost. As such, what we think is, and what is, is altogether different.



Do I get labelled "atheist?"

You...you...YOU....ATHIEST!

But wait!

I do believe that all living things have awareness; from humans to horses to ants to trees to bacteria. I also believe that the awarenss that all living things possess connect in some way (the tree can sense and seek nutrients produced by bacteria in the soil etc)

As humans we possess an awareness on many levels. Buddhism I would characterize as a discipline of thought discipline and thought focus that cultivates the potential of awareness of lovingkindness and compassion within one's self toward all. This nature is taught as our innocent core of our awareness that grows as we grow from conception to infancy.

I like how you wrote about trees having awareness and then wedded growth in compassion into the thought stream. Awareness is the trunk and compassion are the limbs.

cool huh?

The metaphysics of this nature has as many varied models or labels as any discipline. For each of us reality is only our perception of sensory input. It is all we truly possess. Perception is merely perception then. So how do we rate the validity of our reality? I would say by how alive it makes you feel. By how free it makes you feel. By how it culivates life and beauty.

So is it still acurate to call me an atheist? I sure don't

Could you please expand on what you mean by "perception is merely perception then"? Do you mean perception is only perception?

I like very much your thesis that one's aliveness and feeling of freedom- the cultivation of life and beauty- is the standard by which one can measure one's connection to the all of the everything that is.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Daniel

I like how you wrote about trees having awareness....

If trees have awareness, then somebody please tell that hickory tree next to my house to keep his nuts out of my gutters.

Rick

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Could you please expand on what you mean by "perception is merely perception then"? Do you mean perception is only perception?

I think this reflects a Buddhist but particularly Zen concept. Reality is but a very convincing perception. The more ways in which a perception can be verified the more convincing it is to be a reality. the more people that have the same perception the more real and substantial it appears.

But if a "reality" that thousands or more hold feels wrong to me then I start to think that there is a flaw in this "reality" and now I start to label it a popular but flawed perception. I start to realize that every perception I have encountered is a flawed model. This means that every reality can be proven to be a flawed perception. So then no matter how many ways a perception can be verified, flaws can always be found in the reality as it is labelled.

Then I had to realign my criteria by which I gauge the value of a perception:

It must be believable
It must not feel wrong
It must make me feel alive
It must make me feel peaceful
It must make me cherish myself and others
It must make me feel amorous

It is because my perception (reality) must serve me, not someone else. What my study of Buddhism taught me is that I can have limitless influence over my perception by practicing focus of intellect consistently.

I can suspend disbelief in the above by noting the develpment of neural pathways as seen in structural differencres on CT or PET scans of brains of musicians compared to abused children of the same age. I find this extremely convincing, to the point that I don't doubt it

Focus of intellect changes the brain. MY reality. And it is a good one for me. It empowers me. there are 2,500 years of practice by millions of people (Buddhists) to further verify it. And the goal is the true heart's release to feel the joy or pain of the moment, staying in the moment aware of being alive and feeling the life around me.

I get affirmation from the teaching of following a path with heart. Buddhist tradition: If you follow a path with heart (The above) then it is worthwhile, if it doesn't have heart then it is of no use. So in translation if someone tells you that you should live a certain way and it feels wrong to you and it does not make you feel alive and free and amorous, then it is a useless perception

Originally Posted by Daniel

I like very much your thesis that one's aliveness and feeling of freedom- the cultivation of life and beauty- is the standard by which one can measure one's connection to the all of the everything that is.

Try reading A Path With Heart by Jack Kornfield

Originally Posted by Rick336

If trees have awareness, then somebody please tell that hickory tree next to my house to keep his nuts out of my gutters.

Rick

I have no Hickory trees but I communed with my Oaks. They say that Hickory trees have no sense of common decency and will flaunt their nuts sticking them in everyone's business in hope of a cheap thrill. Furthermore beyond a certain age they all become the equivalent of "Dirty Old Men"
Of course to be fair I think my oaks are bit biased and prudish. They fail to acknowledge that they themselves clog my gutters with their acorns every winter!

BTW only female Hickory trees have nuts maybe it's this transgender nature that Oaks won't speak of.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

I think this reflects a Buddhist but particularly Zen concept. Reality is but a very convincing perception. The more ways in which a perception can be verified the more convincing it is to be a reality. the more people that have the same perception the more real and substantial it appears.

Gottcha. Calls to mind the instruction to view waking-life as a dream post-meditation.

Originally Posted by ash

I can suspend disbelief in the above by noting the development of neural pathways as seen in structural differences on CT or PET scans of brains of musicians compared to abused children of the same age. I find this extremely convincing, to the point that I don't doubt it.

The power of music. I have no doubt of that. Listening to Handel, Mozart or Bach gets me out of a funk- no doubt about that. And singing in the shower in the morning can change a life.

I wonder about the effect on the cutting back of music instruction in American schools in the 1980's has had on us as societally. The focus on science and math, and away from the arts in general seems very much like a kind of fundamentalism- a word which I use to imply a narrowness of intent and the limiting of access. We know now that our brains are highly influenced by what we hear. Does a Beethoven quartet bring about a qualitative difference in the brain that- say- rap? There are lower and higher forms of music. And there are lower and higher forms of thought and action.

It's not kosher these days to say that certain forms of music are bad. However, we do know that a steady diet of twinkies isn't good for you. Is music food? I think so. I would posit that what we are exposed to and what we listen to has an effect on us. Equally, we if are deprived of music, that has an effect too, stunting one's growth.

If we are what we eat, and music is food, then perhaps, we are what we listen to. And isn't it interesting that the deaf love to get up and dance to a beat: they can feel it through their feet on the dance floor.

Originally Posted by ash

Try reading A Path With Heart by Jack Kornfield

Good book! I read it some time ago. And everything you've said makes sense to me. Thank you. Fits in with my current practice of heart centered meditation.

Have you read Oliver Sacks latest book Musicophilia? Was made into a show on PBS.

http://books.google.com/books?id=wuy...esult&resnum=4

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

I have no Hickory trees but I communed with my Oaks. They say that Hickory trees have no sense of common decency and will flaunt their nuts sticking them in everyone's business in hope of a cheap thrill. Furthermore beyond a certain age they all become the equivalent of "Dirty Old Men"
Of course to be fair I think my oaks are bit biased and prudish. They fail to acknowledge that they themselves clog my gutters with their acorns every winter!

The weeping willows really get on my nerves. They need to get a life.

And apple trees can be real assholes. Especially the ones beside the Yellow Brick Road.

Rick

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Daniel

I wonder about the effect on the cutting back of music instruction in American schools in the 1980's has had on us as societally. The focus on science and math, and away from the arts in general seems very much like a kind of fundamentalism- a word which I use to imply a narrowness of intent and the limiting of access. We know now that our brains are highly influenced by what we hear. Does a Beethoven quartet bring about a qualitative difference in the brain that- say- rap? There are lower and higher forms of music. And there are lower and higher forms of thought and action.

It's not kosher these days to say that certain forms of music are bad. However, we do know that a steady diet of twinkies isn't good for you. Is music food? I think so. I would posit that what we are exposed to and what we listen to has an effect on us. Equally, we if are deprived of music, that has an effect too, stunting one's growth.

If we are what we eat, and music is food, then perhaps, we are what we listen to. And isn't it interesting that the deaf love to get up and dance to a beat: they can feel it through their feet on the dance floor.

Some young adults I know listen to some noise they say is music. I told them it sounded more like their radio station was picking up several channels at once.

I remember when I was a teenager and adults complaining about the music by the Beatles hollering, "Turn down that racket!"

In the 70s rock-n-roll lovers hollered "Disco sucks!" But whenever I was on the dance floor, the beat of Donna Summer took me to a place that I can only describe as an out of body experience.

I don't get the attraction to rap or jazz or reggae or anything played on an accordion or a bagpipe. To me, it's just "racket." On the other hand, country music is the sweetest sound this side of heaven.

I think music may be whatever rhythm moves us to that special place.


Rick

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Does a Beethoven quartet bring about a qualitative difference in the brain that- say- rap? There are lower and higher forms of music. And there are lower and higher forms of thought and action.

It's not kosher these days to say that certain forms of music are bad. However, we do know that a steady diet of twinkies isn't good for you. Is music food? I think so. I would posit that what we are exposed to and what we listen to has an effect on us. Equally, we if are deprived of music, that has an effect too, stunting one's growth.

If we are what we eat, and music is food, then perhaps, we are what we listen to. And isn't it interesting that the deaf love to get up and dance to a beat: they can feel it through their feet on the dance floor.



Good book! I read it some time ago. And everything you've said makes sense to me. Thank you. Fits in with my current practice of heart centered meditation.

Have you read Oliver Sacks latest book Musicophilia? Was made into a show on PBS.

http://books.google.com/books?id=wuy...esult&resnum=4

I think it sounds like great reading! Music can transform my state of mind dramatically. Reiki music by Aeoliah and Beethoven Quartets are extremely moving especially to a trained musical mind. I don't listen to enough variety!!