Will you settle for "civil unions"?

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Daniel

How about we back up here a bit?

I am married. Married in Canada actually. And the city and state that I live in recognizes legal gay marriage. It doesn't marry gay people as yet, but it will soon enough.

Do I need a label to tell me that I am OK in the eyes of society and God? No. I don't. I'm not looking for validation. But I am looking for the means to be able to take care of the person that I love.

Good. Me too...

The word 'marriage' is not a magic wand for acceptance. However, civil union is not marriage.

I know married people who don't have what I'd call a "marriage"...

What do you mean by the word?

Why is it that straight people don't want civil unions for themselves?

Same reason people who work in McDonald's don't want Burger King for dinner.

[awediot]

So, if I'm fine with the state licensing my union and granting me all the same rights, benefits and responsibilities of a straight couple, but they call it a civil union, am I betraying "The Struggle"? ...am I settling for second class citizen and giving up too early?

[Alecto]

Judging and complaining about other gay people isn't a game I want to get into. If you're content with equal-for-now, more power to you. I don't begrudge people who are happy with civil unions when they're looking for something, anything to protect their relationship. It's my opinion that this disparity: the difference in the words, as I said, WILL eventually be used against us later down the road.

I'm more interested in how you think that we aren't a part of "normal". I'll admit that I have very complex thoughts on this (I'm one of those; I like the word "queer"), but I am intrigued by what one of the other members here once said: there's a minority of the population that is left-handed. It's a fairly constant number each generation, therefore it must be part of God's plan (I'm more agnostic myself, so I'll just use the phrase "natural", or, even, "normal"). There's likewise a pretty sturdy number of people each generation who have same-sex leanings. And we are NOT the only species to have this. There's a good possibility that it is indeed, then, both "natural" and "normal". To use the same comparison, no, that doesn't mean that left-handed people are exactly the same as right-handed people. There's even some tendancies for behavioral/cognitive differences; generalizations that don't hold true for all left-handed people.
I do think that queer people also have possible tendancies for differences; I think we're inclined to be more creative and to have certain spiritual gifts that I can't really qualify. But neither of those means we're "abnormal", nor do either of those things apply to EVERYONE.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by awediot

So, if I'm fine with the state licensing my union and granting me all the same rights, benefits and responsibilities of a straight couple, but they call it a civil union, am I betraying "The Struggle"? ...am I settling for second class citizen and giving up too early?

Who are they? Someone who's validation you want but looks down on you?

Six states have gay marriage right now. Iowa among them. Do you think they should have civil unions instead? What would make civil unions better than marriage? What's better about civil unions?

Oh...btw....the 2010 census will count gay couples.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_218489.html

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Alecto

when they're looking for something, anything to protect their relationship. It's my opinion that this disparity: the difference in the words, as I said, WILL eventually be used against us later down the road.

Your opinion is accurate. It's been used right now in New Jersey, where many couples have been denied the rights the state says they have. Don't know about you, but I don't want to be in a position where I have to sue an employer for the rights the state says I have.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Alecto

Judging and complaining about other gay people isn't a game I want to get into. If you're content with equal-for-now, more power to you. I don't begrudge people who are happy with civil unions when they're looking for something, anything to protect their relationship. It's my opinion that this disparity: the difference in the words, as I said, WILL eventually be used against us later down the road.

So will the fact we prefer our own gender, whatever it is called.

Sorry, but get used to it.

I'm more interested in how you think that we aren't a part of "normal". I'll admit that I have very complex thoughts on this (I'm one of those; I like the word "queer"), but I am intrigued by what one of the other members here once said: there's a minority of the population that is left-handed. It's a fairly constant number each generation, therefore it must be part of God's plan (I'm more agnostic myself, so I'll just use the phrase "natural", or, even, "normal"). There's likewise a pretty sturdy number of people each generation who have same-sex leanings. And we are NOT the only species to have this. There's a good possibility that it is indeed, then, both "natural" and "normal". To use the same comparison, no, that doesn't mean that left-handed people are exactly the same as right-handed people. There's even some tendancies for behavioral/cognitive differences; generalizations that don't hold true for all left-handed people.
I do think that queer people also have possible tendancies for differences; I think we're inclined to be more creative and to have certain spiritual gifts that I can't really qualify. But neither of those means we're "abnormal", nor do either of those things apply to EVERYONE.

Oh great! I'm left handed too! Now if I were just a fat, black woman in a wheel chair.

We are a minority. A minority is not the "norm". Simple as that.

Semantics.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Who are they?

The powers that be.

Someone who's validation you want but looks down on you?

Nope.

Six states have gay marriage right now. Iowa among them. Do you think they should have civil unions instead? What would make civil unions better than marriage? What's better about civil unions?

I do not care what THEY call it. Just give me equal Human Rights under the law. Calling it "marriage" won't stop bigotry.

Oh...btw....the 2010 census will count gay couples.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_218489.html

Good.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Your opinion is accurate. It's been used right now in New Jersey, where many couples have been denied the rights the state says they have. Don't know about you, but I don't want to be in a position where I have to sue an employer for the rights the state says I have.

Should your employer be forced to hire gay people?

Should you be forced to hire Christians?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by awediot

Should your employer be forced to hire gay people?

Should you be forced to hire Christians?

...about gay marriage now turns into 'forcing' people to hire christians? No one is making laws against christians mandating that they can't marry. And btw, your answer, 'the powers that be' strikes me as glib. Perhaps this is entertaining for you, but it makes me not want to continue the conversation.

No. Gay marriage won't stop bigotry. And civil rights for blacks hasn't stopped certain persons from burning crosses on lawns either. But those persons are few these days.

Have fun in the sand box!

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Daniel

...about gay marriage now turns into 'forcing' people to hire christians? No one is making laws against christians mandating that they can't marry. And btw, your answer, 'the powers that be' strikes me as glib. Perhaps this is entertaining for you, but it makes me not want to continue the conversation.

Didn't think the train of thought was that difficult... (apparently to answer tho)

And yes this is entertaining. It is also important and heart-felt.

And, so don't. Ignore me... CARM taught me to get used to it. (from certain types of posters)

No. Gay marriage won't stop bigotry. And civil rights for blacks hasn't stopped certain persons from burning crosses on lawns either. But those persons are few these days.

Have fun in the sand box!

It's pretty cool, but for the occasional cat crap.

[Alecto]

If we all "got used to it" sodomy laws would still be on the books, all the bars would be closed and we'd all be living in fear and killing ourselves (in greater numbers than we still are). Unless I mistake your meaning?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by awediot

Didn't think the train of thought was that difficult... (apparently to answer tho)

And yes this is entertaining. It is also important and heart-felt.

And, so don't. Ignore me... CARM taught me to get used to it. (from certain types of posters)

It's pretty cool, but for the occasional cat crap.

Oh...I followed the train of thought. No problem there. And yes, these issues are very heart-felt.

When the hospital ignores your health care proxy, it hurts.

When a court rules against your husband's will in favor of his family, if hurts.

When you can't have your man's SS or pension after he dies, it hurts.

When you are thrown out of your apt because you aren't on the lease, it hurts.

The list goes on and on. Civil unions don't fix these things because religious conservatives who believe being gay-is-evil think civil unions are beneath them and don't recognize them. They think they are above the law. That's the real deal.

Separate is not equal.

Either God loves us all or he doesn't. And either marriage is good enough for everyone or it isn't good enough for anyone.

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by awediot

I mean the usual, the status quo, the average...and we ain't it. That is a battle for fools.

Well than I'm a fool. I will keep fighting for equality, for every person, not just straight people. Until we are all treated equally under the law, I'll keep fighting my fool fight as a fool, at least as some would see it. For me, equality is a no-brainer and something I feel is very much worth my time and effort.

Someone on these forums once called me a warrior goddess. I much prefer to think of myself in that regard, rather than a mere fool.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Alecto

If we all "got used to it" sodomy laws would still be on the books, all the bars would be closed and we'd all be living in fear and killing ourselves (in greater numbers than we still are). Unless I mistake your meaning?

You do... It is not an all or nothing proposition.

We will never be embraced as typical, normal, average, the model, standard, usual...whatever, because we are not. Get used to that much and embrace your oddness.

We segregate ourselves into gay bars. They don't.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Someone on these forums once called me a warrior goddess. I much prefer to think of myself in that regard, rather than a mere fool.

I've seen the Goddess side of you as she is no fool!

Go Zena!

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Oh...I followed the train of thought. No problem there. And yes, these issues are very heart-felt.

When the hospital ignores your health care proxy, it hurts.

When a court rules against your husband's will in favor of his family, if hurts.

When you can't have your man's SS or pension after he dies, it hurts.

When you are thrown out of your apt because you aren't on the lease, it hurts.

The list goes on and on. Civil unions don't fix these things because religious conservatives who believe being gay-is-evil think civil unions are beneath them and don't recognize them. They think they are above the law. That's the real deal.

Separate is not equal.

Either God loves us all or he doesn't. And either marriage is good enough for everyone or it isn't good enough for anyone.

So what do you want? The Christian influence criminalized?

What is victory to you? When do you win?

[awediot]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Well than I'm a fool. I will keep fighting for equality, for every person, not just straight people. Until we are all treated equally under the law, I'll keep fighting my fool fight as a fool, at least as some would see it. For me, equality is a no-brainer and something I feel is very much worth my time and effort.

Someone on these forums once called me a warrior goddess. I much prefer to think of myself in that regard, rather than a mere fool.

Then you will fight nature, which needs males and females to keep a species going...

We are weird tdogg...Demand your rights, but relish it.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by awediot

So what do you want? The Christian influence criminalized?

What is victory to you? When do you win?

You are being provocative. If you think I want those who call themselves Christian to be put in jail, then I don't think you've been reading my posts.

Having equal rights is not about winning. It's about having equal rights.

Ok. I'm done with this thread.

Welcome back to the forum awediot.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Daniel

You are being provocative. If you think I want those who call themselves Christian to be put in jail, then I don't think you've been reading my posts.

Having equal rights is not about winning. It's about having equal rights.

Ok. I'm done with this thread.

Welcome back to the forum awediot.

Those were four questions Daniel (loaded? maybe)

You didn't bother to answer one.


-and thanks, but i don't think your hearts in it...

[tdogg]

Awe,

If it were only about me and only about marriage/benefits, I would be satisfied with a civil union. I'm married, have state benefits (but not federal) and a very happy life partnership with the person I married. I'm fairly satisfied.

But it's not all about me. It's about everyone else too. It's especially about our youth, who are suffering because of the anti-gay sentiment that runs particularly wild in religion. It's about stopping the bullying, harrassing, and violence in schools. It's about helping our young citizens feel worthwhile, loved, equal to their straight peers, so that they don't feel the need to fill that void with alcohol, drugs, unsafe sex and even suicide. It's about not eve ever having to read another article about a hate crime against a GLBT person.

It's not all about marriage either. It's about full equality. It's about you, me and everyone else enjoying the exact same rights, privileges, protections and even responsibilities as the next person. Black, white, tall, short, old, young, gay, straight, etc. being treated fully equal under the law. It's about much much more than 'gay marriage' as the media likes to put it.

This has nothing to do with gay rights. It has everything to do with equality. I have nothing against you settling for anything less. You are not required to get up and do anything about the inequality and injustice against GLBT people. You can be satisfied with what you have and refuse to spend another second, dollar or ounce of energy fighting for anyone else. I will fight twice as hard to get us there. It may come, eventually, generations down the road. But I'm working hard to get it here much faster. We can't really waste time, people are literally dying for lack of it. That is why I cannot settle for anything less than full equality.