Are there any Christians on this site anymore?

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by awediot

"Studying for the ministry in my chosen faith."... Ben N. Moore

And you would be welcome at our center. We're not Christians although the services follow a similar format.

" ...I just don't want anything to do with you." ... Ben N. Moore

...and Heaven knows no favorites. I acknowledge that you are made of the same thing, in the same image and likeness as everyone else.

The only thing I can say is Namaste.

Ben N. Moore

[wmanion]

I for one, do not call my self a christian. Do I believe Jesus went to the cross? Yes. Do I believe that Jesus wants me to call myself a Christian? No. I am not saying those that do are wrong for doing so. However, Jesus never said follow me and call yourself Christian. Christian was a label that his followers took upon themselves to call themselves. Jesus also never said, Go out and build massive buildings and call them churches and come there to worship. His concept of the church was an invisible body of believers that gathered together to worship him and learn in their homes, on the streets, but not in any building that cost so much that it could have fed ten families for many years. How big is God. Is it possible for God to reveal himself as Jesus to the Jews, as a different figure to the Muslims, to yet another figure or figures to the American Indian, and still as another figure to a remote African tribe that had never heard of a Messiah or a Jesus. My thoughts on that is YES HE CAN! We become so rigid in out beliefs that we don't allow for God to meet the needs of different societies and people at their point of need and within their own understanding. No one can tell me that God did not reach out to all the world, and no one can tell me that only the Jewish people were privy to a God of Love and everyone else was wrong and doomed to an eternal hell without even hearing of a Messiah. Wouldn't this be completely opposite of God as a loving God, who is not a respecter of persons. Yes, Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life and that no man comes to the father but by him. But can you say with any kind of a certainty that Jesus isn't
multifaceted and revealed himself to other cultures by a different name?
I am not vain enough to think that!

Bill

[awediot]

Originally Posted by bnmoore

And you would be welcome at our center. We're not Christians although the services follow a similar format.

...and Heaven knows no favorites. I acknowledge that you are made of the same thing, in the same image and likeness as everyone else.

The only thing I can say is Namaste.

Ben N. Moore

Then why would you say " ...I just don't want anything to do with you." ?

~To be honest, I ask this to try to trigger YOUR thoughts, not get an explanation... It's a cold thing to say as a representative of any spiritual ministry that claims I'd be welcome.

It sounds oddly...familiar.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by wmanion

I for one, do not call my self a christian. Do I believe Jesus went to the cross? Yes. Do I believe that Jesus wants me to call myself a Christian? No. I am not saying those that do are wrong for doing so. However, Jesus never said follow me and call yourself Christian. Christian was a label that his followers took upon themselves to call themselves. Jesus also never said, Go out and build massive buildings and call them churches and come there to worship. His concept of the church was an invisible body of believers that gathered together to worship him and learn in their homes, on the streets, but not in any building that cost so much that it could have fed ten families for many years. How big is God. Is it possible for God to reveal himself as Jesus to the Jews, as a different figure to the Muslims, to yet another figure or figures to the American Indian, and still as another figure to a remote African tribe that had never heard of a Messiah or a Jesus. My thoughts on that is YES HE CAN! We become so rigid in out beliefs that we don't allow for God to meet the needs of different societies and people at their point of need and within their own understanding. No one can tell me that God did not reach out to all the world, and no one can tell me that only the Jewish people were privy to a God of Love and everyone else was wrong and doomed to an eternal hell without even hearing of a Messiah. Wouldn't this be completely opposite of God as a loving God, who is not a respecter of persons. Yes, Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life and that no man comes to the father but by him. But can you say with any kind of a certainty that Jesus isn't
multifaceted and revealed himself to other cultures by a different name?
I am not vain enough to think that!

Bill

Interesting and pretty sad that such a simple question is instantly taken as accusatory these days... For a group which espouses the credo "I believe that my adversary's motives are as pure as mine and of no relevance to our discussion.", mine sure seem to have been all figured out in as negative a light as possible...

~and I do agree with you Bill.





John 21:25.
"...there are many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written."

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by awediot

Then why would you say " ...I just don't want anything to do with you." ?

Because I was angry. It happens sometimes. I'm not angry now.

It sounded familiar to me as well. Sorry about that.

FYI. I'm not here to represent the SLCA. I'm here because I choose to be.

I thought I might find a community working for a common good.

Ben N. Moore

[keltic63]

Now would be a good time to remind everyone to treat each other with respect. We do not have to agree, but we do not have to hurt each other intentionally. Please do not bait each other with loaded questions, and do not reply with a personal attack when disagreeing with the content of the post.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by bnmoore

The Qu'ran itself contains stories of divine origin. Consider Ghaflah as a Buddhist concept. (Apply it to anyone and everyone.)

I don't think we've met here as yet.

Thanks for the word in bold above. I confess that I do not know the Qu'ran, or the Muslim faith very well. I'm glad to know that this concept.

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Ghaflah (غفلة) is the Arabic word for negligence, heedlessness. In Islamic context, it is the sin of forgetting Allah and one's divine origins, or being indifferent of these.

Speaking of words, you used the greeting "namaste" earlier in this thread, which is an expression of the concept, is it not? That is, seeing the divine in another despite appearances and/or actions. I could agree more with the intent.

[andrewlittle]

Hello, Awediot. Welcome back. I don't really know you, nor you me, but I followed your posts quite avidly while on CARM. More about that later.

I am a christian - I am not a Christian. I make a distinction between the two that is purely my own.

As a christian, I hold to most of the tenets of faith of christianity, but disagree on some very important ones. I prefer to think of myself as a follower of the message of Christ. If I were a Christian, I am afraid I would spend more time worrying about my badge of honor and claim to righteousness than the message of Christ.

One of the tenets I have a problem with is that my salvation is dependent on Jesus' death on the cross. I believe that salvation was essentially intertwined with the message of God in the person of Jesus (who is the Christ). Salvation is to be found in hearing and following the message and teachings.

Jesus went against the religious heirarchy of his time and paid with his life. I think God could have stopped this, but was compelled to let free will reign. Christ, therefore, did not "buy" my salvation, nor die for it. Christ lived for it by living the very message he brought and by being willing to die for the integrity of that message.

Anyway, that's just one area of orthodoxy that I find troubling. As with any issue of faith, it will be problematic from a logical point of view. I don't think, when it comes to faith, that there is a dichotomous logical/illogical condition. Some things simply defy logic, and faith is one of them. It somehow resides in a no-man's land of ill definition.

Now, as to CARM. You, sir, have a mind as big as all outdoors. You are cerebral almost to a fault - I did say almost. You are not subtle (by a long shot) but do deal in nuances that I think evade the average person. When they become aware that they cannot follow your logic and understand, never mind counteract it, the next best thing is to become verbally violent. What ensues is a lot of chest beating and the projection of a totemic God - theirs being the bigger and more powerful one that has imbued them with absolute knowledge that you are a charleton and heretic. Ignorance seems to prove itself out most of the time.

Anyway, I for one enjoyed your posts, such that I could follow them.

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by Daniel

I don't think we've met here as yet.

Thanks for the word in bold above. I confess that I do not know the Qu'ran, or the Muslim faith very well. I'm glad to know that this concept.



Speaking of words, you used the greeting "namaste" earlier in this thread, which is an expression of the concept, is it not? That is, seeing the divine in another despite appearances and/or actions. I could agree more with the intent.

I've seen around a dozen or more interpretations or definitions for Namaste. I haven't found one I wouldn't agree with yet. Some are more formal than others. If you have an "It's All God" philosophy it works fine without defining what it might be.

Do you know of Hafiz the Sufi poet? http://peacefulrivers.homestead.com/...l#anchor_16035

It always smacks me right square in the heart.

Ben N. Moore

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by bnmoore

I've seen around a dozen or more interpretations or definitions for Namaste. I haven't found one I wouldn't agree with yet. Some are more formal than others. If you have an "It's All God" philosophy it works fine without defining what it might be.

Do you know of Hafiz the Sufi poet? http://peacefulrivers.homestead.com/...l#anchor_16035

It always smacks me right square in the heart.

Ben N. Moore

Thank you for the link. I am more acquainted with the poetry of Rumi that I am of Hafiz. Think I started a thread about him here. You are right. This kind of expression does touch the heart. Speaking of which, a Tibetan heart practice (please forgive the lateral slipping of my mind!), Tonglen, has been my mainstay for a while now. It has helped me deal with some hard times. And for that I am very grateful.

Good stuff- poetry and matters of the heart.

I bow to the Light within you.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

Hello, Awediot. Welcome back. I don't really know you, nor you me, but I followed your posts quite avidly while on CARM. More about that later.

Hi andrew...You strike me as familiar, and my apologies if the old memory may need jarred a little more... It's great to -re meet you. (avidly?) There have been a few cross-over posters between the two places...I'd like to hear more later. That place is the antithesis of here. But also much more alike than I think either want to admit.

I am a christian - I am not a Christian. I make a distinction between the two that is purely my own.

As a christian, I hold to most of the tenets of faith of christianity, but disagree on some very important ones. I prefer to think of myself as a follower of the message of Christ. If I were a Christian, I am afraid I would spend more time worrying about my badge of honor and claim to righteousness than the message of Christ.

One of the tenets I have a problem with is that my salvation is dependent on Jesus' death on the cross. I believe that salvation was essentially intertwined with the message of God in the person of Jesus (who is the Christ). Salvation is to be found in hearing and following the message and teachings.

Jesus went against the religious heirarchy of his time and paid with his life. I think God could have stopped this, but was compelled to let free will reign. Christ, therefore, did not "buy" my salvation, nor die for it. Christ lived for it by living the very message he brought and by being willing to die for the integrity of that message.

Romans 1:20
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

-Does rather challenge the idea that only Christ and the Gospesl are the only way to Truth

Job 12:7-10
7But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
8Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
9Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
10In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

...is an almost gently taunting dare to claim you've never seen it...Like even animals get it. It's abstractly true enough that we each just fill in the gaps to a natural understanding of what it's basically getting at...

We all agree it is hard to express.

John 21:25.
"...there are many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written."

-The Bible itself opens the door for for The "Spirit" and message of Christ and mere "Christianity", and even theism in general, to do it's job in ways we simply may not recognize if not as star spangled as western tradition has predicted it.

For me, the Bible and the words of Jesus are the Myths come true. He crossed the line between archetype Messiah, Savior and Deity manifest legends and religions were built on, and recorded history... He essentially told us He was, and we've been dealing with the impact of His influence ever since... The Bible is the best explanation IMO...But it is not perfect, and it requires interpretation and discernment...

Anyway, that's just one area of orthodoxy that I find troubling. As with any issue of faith, it will be problematic from a logical point of view. I don't think, when it comes to faith, that there is a dichotomous logical/illogical condition. Some things simply defy logic, and faith is one of them. It somehow resides in a no-man's land of ill definition.

When we believe in something without proof of it, the gap is jumped over with a leap faith...in either direction... It'd seem to boil down to what we do not have the emperical knowledge of having seen it ourselves, then technically we can not prove even to ourselves that it is hard knowledge we KNOW for a Fact...

That's a big thing... I believe that thing that used to be called planet "Pluto" exists, but not absolutely Know it... I trust in the sources which offer convincing evidence that I can deem as "proof enough" to let my "know" things about it. I place my "faith" in them, their tools, and results when we act on their influence... Faith is a more a forest for the trees thing that is so prevasive it is hard to see. I'ts pretty scary to segregate all the stuff we really do not know for certain from what we've witnessed first hand... It depends on if we do, or should..or have to, care about them.

Now, as to CARM. You, sir, have a mind as big as all outdoors. You are cerebral almost to a fault - I did say almost. You are not subtle (by a long shot) but do deal in nuances that I think evade the average person. When they become aware that they cannot follow your logic and understand, never mind counteract it, the next best thing is to become verbally violent. What ensues is a lot of chest beating and the projection of a totemic God - theirs being the bigger and more powerful one that has imbued them with absolute knowledge that you are a charleton and heretic. Ignorance seems to prove itself out most of the time.

Anyway, I for one enjoyed your posts, such that I could follow them.

Thank you... A lot of overlapping and sort of streamy, off-shoot thoughts pack themselves into my posts. Occasionally I'll look back later and wonder exactly where this or that came from...so I sorta know how i sound... But, since I tend to try more to get people to thinking, to jar them out of their comfort zone, than to tell them what they need to be doing or believe, just as I expect them to do the same for me, that somehow influences my style. You gotta first catch people's precious attention these days...

And only infants, the truly infantile and innocents are ignorant... They couldn't post on a site like this.


-appreciated the nice and intriguing reply, andrewl. I look forward to chatting...

[Eugene]

Please do not bait each other with loaded questions

Does that mean the title question of this thread?

I've been posting on CARM lately, too. Can't decide whether a gay Christian causes more problems for mainstream gays or for evangelicals.

[tvmt]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

First of all, I have to very much disagree with your statement that "Christians just say "yeah, I am...", as though they all know exactly what is being asked and do not have to initially think about the answer..."

I was born and baptised into the Roman Catholic Church, long, long before I came out as a lesbian. I do not believe you can generalize the way you did about Christians. We're all very different, depending on our upbringing and our specific "brand" of Christianity. What gives you the right to "define a Christian"? That sounds like what Falwell and his ilk do. And why think from a perspective of "we/they"? By your very definition you've excluded Mel White, our founder, who defines himself as a follower of a Jewish carpenter, and has a very hard time with calling himself a Christian. Why the need to exclude? Doesn't the world have enough exclusion already?

I've been part of Soulforce from the beginning, and we've always striven to be a multi-faith organization. It was predominantly Christian, but never solely Christian. I'm always grateful to my non-Christian friends for teaching me to be more inclusive in my thinking. Now thanks to them, I end my prayers with, "we pray this in your many names."

I'm an out lesbian at my parish and I preach, so I'm still Catholic because I've found a really welcoming community. If I hadn't, who knows..... While I am still a follower of that Jewish carpenter, there is much within the Christian churches that I find abhorent and do not support.

At 72, I've come to understand that there is no black, no white, but various greys that reflect the diversity of the world.

Kara

excellent! like what you said kara.

[baumgrenze]

Originally Posted by nmwolfboy

i didn't say that i disbelieved that Christ is the Savior, only with the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, specifically the idea of penal substitution.

Christus Victor, from Theopedia:

These might seem like really tiny theological differences, but i see them as increasingly divergent. The Eastern Orthodox Church still maintains a ransom/Christus Victor stance, though the Western church relegated it into the background around the time of the great East/West Schism.

On the 23d I thanked nmwolfboy for his lesson in theology. Like any good chemist, I went off to do research. I found something I think others might appreciate. Be patient, it is long, but it is interesting teaching. Take a look at:

http://sharktacos.com/God/cross_intro.shtml

and follow the several sections of the website. I've read that Derek Flood, the author, it thinking about publishing this material as a small book. See if you don't think we should encourage him to do so.

John

[turquoise]

thanks for letting me - us know about the gay christian network - i just looked it up and it looks interesting. And yes, I am a christian - a christ follower, a jesus lover, a servant of our lord

[awediot]

Originally Posted by turquoise

thanks for letting me - us know about the gay christian network - i just looked it up and it looks interesting. And yes, I am a christian - a christ follower, a jesus lover, a servant of our lord

You bet... I Really hope to see you there. You'd enjoy it.

[coavonia73]

The ALL mentioned in 1 Cor. 1 is referring to ALL Christians who HAVE CALLED on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and been born-again. We don't "make" Jesus Lord of our lives----He IS the Lord no matter what we do--some need to be chastened more than others---but everyone who is truly saved WILL BE chastened. The point is that the Lord WILL CONFIRM TO THE END "ALL" who are saved---not just some. That's the point I am emphasizing.

--Joe

[Daniel]

First you get beaten and then you get confirmed! Some more than others?

Now there's a pretty thought.

Just the sort of Christ to follow. First he beats you and then tells you he loves you. Sounds like a guy who needs an anger management class.

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by coavonia73

The ALL mentioned in 1 Cor. 1 is referring to ALL Christians who HAVE CALLED on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and been born-again. We don't "make" Jesus Lord of our lives----He IS the Lord no matter what we do--some need to be chastened more than others---but everyone who is truly saved WILL BE chastened. The point is that the Lord WILL CONFIRM TO THE END "ALL" who are saved---not just some. That's the point I am emphasizing.

--Joe

Love is Lord, and Love doesn’t chasten---that is the judgment.

-Patrick

[dsdrane]

Normally, I would hesitate to assign "tone" to the original question of this thread. I have no need to hesitate here, however.

Whereas it is true that Mel White is a Christian and King was a Christian, Gandhi was not, and (with the exception of an image of King paired with Gandhi's in the site's masthead) there is no mention of "Christianity" per se in the call to action: Freedom for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people from religious and political violence through the practice of relentless nonviolent resistance.

To have assumed otherwise, betrays anything from an inattention to detail to a potentially malicious Christo-centrism.

Ironically, I first came to this site after Googling "gay" and "christian". I found GCN through the same search. I ultimately left GCN because I became uncomfortable with a) the degree of closetedness, b) the "Side B-ers", and c) the site's stated "beliefs". The site is, in essence, a "church" -- and not one to which I wanted to belong. I also felt uncomfortable with the lack of non-Christians, though I could hardly fault them for this; there is a "C" in "GCN". Regardless, it felt constricting and I was done. On the other hand, I've stayed (to varying degrees over time) with SF precisely because we are a mixed bag. Frankly, I wouldn't mind if I were the only Christian here, as long we were still focusing on the religious and political oppression of gay people.

To ask "are there any Christians on this site anymore" is to suggest a) there were Christians here, b) there is now a lack of them, and c) this is something to be lamented. In short, the question is ipso facto offensive and should be recognized as well as decried as such.