Where's Richard Lindsay?

[Venari]

For those of you who don’t know Richard Lindsay is the man who vowed to do one better then the Gospel and not shake the dust from his feet and blocked the entrance to NCU's cafeteria.

Today when I was at NCU with some fellow students and someone noticed and pointed out that Richard Lindsay was no where to be found. We briefly discussed why the Equality Ride was not taken seriously. Mostly because antics like that of Lindsay making a scene for the cameras then not really following though with it then topped with the claiming to do one better then the teachings of Jesus. (Those of your of Pentecostal background will get this last part and why people now mock his actions.)

It’s sad to say that what could have been a wonderful day of communal outreach has become a day of joking.

-Venari

[Daniel]

a·gent pro·vo·ca·teur (?-zhäN' prô-vô'kä-tœr')

[French : agent, agent + provocateur, instigator.]

A person employed to associate with suspected individuals or groups with the purpose of inciting them to commit acts that will make them liable to punishment.

And who will be doing the punishment here I wonder?

Come on Venari- get a grip and get on with life, ok?

[Daniel]

He's probably at home in bed, snuggling with his boyfriend. Or out at a movie, or getting home from an evening service and fellowship afterwards.

Look. I know I'm being a bit over the top. But what do you care? Really. And to this reader it seems all you're doing is engaging in some antics of your own.

The horse is dead. Time to get off off the horse and stop beating it.

Mocking?

Well. You said it. I didn't.

[Venari]

I guess you have your opinion. I am just sharing what the view at NCU currently is ... that is SF has become a joke.

-Venari

[Venari]

Also, I an actually upset over what the day has become. Where my community openly mocks fellow GLBT Christians. Maybe next time there will be more thought put into words and actions.

-Venari

ps
I thought I would post twice too.

[Daniel]

I can read you know.

The title of this thread is provocative and is meant to hold the person in question up to ridicule. If you don't share the view of those at your school who think the ERide's presence was a joke, then you could have said so- here on the forum and to your supposed friends So far, you haven't.

Now. You're upset? Please. "The Lady doth protest too much."

It seems you want to be the mediator- to what- nasty gossip?

[Venari]

I think his actions were ridiculous and over the top, a feeling shared by many other students. So now that the "Where's Richard" jokes, kind of like "Where's Waldo," has reached a great many students I felt it was necessary to point out the absurdity of his actions so later such actions can be avoided and him and SF wont be the butt of any more jokes.

Namely not claiming to "one-up the Bible" and if you do still make a claim like that you had better do something better then blocking students from entering the cafeteria… then waltzing away at the end of the day.

Also, at this point many student leaders are turned off to the prospect of meeting with members of SF/ER. My job now is less of mediating understanding with the students then repairing the bridge the ER dropped a torch on when they left... as is the perception at NCU.

-Venari

[awediot]

Big, deserved OUCH, Venari...

I really hope you are wrong. But I doubt that you are... Many saw a lesson or two on the horizon. I for one appreciate your carefully worded wisdom for the future...

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Venari

It’s sad to say that what could have been a wonderful day of communal outreach has become a day of joking.

-Venari

and how is this "joking" helping the lgbt students there at NCU? what about the lgbt students in the closet? are you part of the crowd that is making the jokes? is it only poking fun at SoulForce? does it also cross over to making fun of homosexuals?

[Venari]

Originally Posted by keltic63

and how is this "joking" helping the lgbt students there at NCU? what about the lgbt students in the closet? are you part of the crowd that is making the jokes? is it only poking fun at SoulForce? does it also cross over to making fun of homosexuals?

No, I would say the joking is purely at the expense of Soulforce and the Equality Ride. Many of the closeted students I have come to know are some of the people making most of the jokes. The side effect now is there is a BIG discredit given to any group that would speak for GLBT, namely GLBT student right, in the eyes of most of the students at NCU.



-Venari

[tdogg]

Venari

As you previously posted, you anticipated the Equality Ride visit to your school to be a failure and at best a setback to supposed 'open minds' and 'change'. Then, the ER riders came, and your posts indicate that you feel their visit was the failure you anticipated (we very often set ourselves up for what we anticipate, either consciously or unconsiously). Now you say that change and open minds are set back and the students are joking (I'm assuming that you don't know all the students at NCU). So, basically you anticipated the ER being a failure and didn't want them to come, they came and now you say the visit was a failure and the ER is a joke to various students. This is called a reaction.

So, instead of reacting - how about some proaction. Instead of joking and talking about how bad the ER visit was, how about finding some positive pro active things to do - at the very least, the ER visit with all its supposed failures should be plenty to open the door to further discussion regarding the issues at hand. You can look at what went wrong both on the end of the ER'ers and on the end of the NCU students and faculty. Trust me, the NCU students and teachers are not the innocent victims in this. It takes all sides to bring positive dicussion. True equality fighters don't let one small event bring their actions to a complete halt. Be the mature adult I know you are and lead your fellow students to a positive pro active level to deal with the issues at hand. You have the power to either sit back and complain or to stand up and do something. I think we are all aware of how you feel about the ER - now tell us what you intend to do about making the staff and students more aware of GLBT issues and true equality for everyone at the school.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Venari

No, I would say the joking is purely at the expense of Soulforce and the Equality Ride. Many of the closeted students I have come to know are some of the people making most of the jokes. The side effect now is there is a BIG discredit given to any group that would speak for GLBT, namely GLBT student right, in the eyes of most of the students at NCU.



-Venari

I don't see how any of that is healthy, and I don't see that as the fault of the ER. As a matter of fact, since the closeted students are making fun of the ER, doesn't it seem as if they are doing it to distance themselves from glbt people? I mean, closeted gay people often make homophobic jokes so that they themselves are not suspected of being gay. is it possible that all the jokes about ER are being said to accomplish the same thing?

so, what are you doing to bring about healthy change on campus?

and as a side note, I am bothered by a group of christian college students "making fun" of another group of people. something doesn't sit right about that.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Be the mature adult I know you are and lead your fellow students to a positive pro active level to deal with the issues at hand. You have the power to either sit back and complain or to stand up and do something.

Venari- If there ever was a line in the sand. This is it. Tdogg has stated the matter perfectly. Either you step up to the plate (yes- I'm mixing metaphors) or you don't. The choice is yours.

No more dodgeball either.

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Venari- If there ever was a line in the sand. This is it. Tdogg has stated the matter perfectly. Either you step up to the plate (yes- I'm mixing metaphors) or you don't. The choice is yours.

No more dodgeball either.

I am stepping to the plate... or as my friend put it placing my neck on the chopping block.

I came here to illustrate the deep division that has occurred as a result of the 17th of April. Many GLB students feel like SF is weak and ineffective and the jokes are being told among students who are out to each other but not the general student body. The "Where’s Richard Lindsay" is more of a metaphor of how SF/ER came to make a change but only was here a day leaving not leaving the students any real resources to effect that change.

All that said. I am organizing as many GLB fellow students as I can to create a stronger base to influence the school, yes I know sounds like a union. At this time many of the students, gay and straight, have such a negative view of SF/ER with the sincere belief the visit to NCU was a publicity stunt to raise money and not really help us.

So I ask where is Richard Lindsay? He’s not here, at NCU, offering to help the GLB students make the transition to have a louder and stronger voice on campus.

-Venari

PS.
I do apologize if it seems I am picking of Mr. Lindsay, I have never interacted with him on any level and I am sure he is kind and well intended. But he placed himself as the target by starting the door blocking incident which is the root of much of the ridicule

[awediot]

What the ? I understand defending this site and the good work it (usually) does, but how about a little self-critique here? What Venari is stating unfortunately makes perfect sense and Christian or not, a bunch of college students ripping on some group is not particularly mind blowing. Sounds like hes doing what he can on that end, how about a little reflection to see what and where things just might have gone better on this one?


"Namely not claiming to "one-up the Bible" ... I recall him saying basically this and at the time found it rather over the top... anyone else?

[dewdrop_world]

I hear what awediot is saying, don't have time to get into it now (at work).

Who is it on this site who has the Gandhi quote in his sig? Maybe Joe B.?

"First they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win."

James

[Venari]

Originally Posted by dewdrop_world

I hear what awediot is saying, don't have time to get into it now (at work).

Who is it on this site who has the Gandhi quote in his sig? Maybe Joe B.?

"First they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win."

James

As harsh as my current "tactics" seem to be that is what I am trying to point out ... self reflection is necessary for everyone involved on any level.

But I don’t think the quote from Gandhi is accurate in this case ... NCU was fighting, now we’re laughing and some are still fighting ... I don’t think anyone is going to "win" in an atmosphere like that.

-Venari

[Zerbie]

What's dumbfounding about this thread is, I don't see precisely what of real substance we are arguing over. It seems to be a nit-picky argument about who is making jokes about whom and a re-hashing of the beaten horse, the door-blocking incident.

Can we clarify what everyone's intentions/goals are on this point? Venari, especially, as the OP, - can you clarify the problem? You have a tendency to make a complaint or a judgment about the failure of Soulforce or the Ride, without bringing us your ideas for how else to go about things. You might not have seen it, but I asked you a question on another thread about that local Soulforce group you said you checked out that turned you off so much to SF. I would like to know why. What was said/done at that local SF meeting that turned you off so much? If you want to help us, please do. Telling us what turned you off to those people might be of real help to us.

I for one don't know how to take many of Venari's posts, but it is worth considering, folks, that it's entirely possible that some of "our" activists *might* be going about things in the "wrong" way. Or perhaps it is the right way, and this kind of reaction is an inevitability. But it is OUR job as supporters to evaluate which of those possibilities the case may be. Just because the belief or the heart is in the "right" place doesn't mean that actions are being brought about in the most effective of ways. Granted, I too see the established pattern to Venari's posts. But if/when he has something of substance to bring to his critique of SF we should listen to him and evaluate if there might be some truth behind it. Find the middle, it has to be there.

[Venari]

Thank you for your comments Zerbie.

That is my intention with this post. I am trying to best represent the current attitude/atmosphere at NCU. Wither you agree or disagree with what I have to say. This come to a matter of being a "double edged sword” I can come here and present what is going on and being said at the risk of offending and alienating people here. Paired with that is generating the understanding of how NCU has and is changing as a result of the visit.

I haven’t said anything for weeks because I waited for things to settle down and see how things will pan out. This brings me to this recent post. From actions like claiming to one up the Bible then no further interaction of with the school SF/ER is looked at like a joke and the view has solidified that this was only a publicity stunt and an effort at fund raising.

Right or wrong this is how things are, what I am trying to do is sort though it hoping that maybe next time someone will think though their actions better or there will be more follow though on the part of Soulforce and the Equality Ride.

Could I have worded my post better, probably. But then with better working the feeling of division between the students, GLB and allied, and groups like Soulforce would not have been conveyed as well.

-Venari

[Zerbie]

Very interesting.

I like very much the idea of follow-through. Too much of what I've been involved in myself - and I'm NOT talking about SF, I've never been involved with SF yet - (I mean like local groups holding rallies, one day awareness events) have been one time only events. There is no sense of continuity with them, and that frustrates me.

Now, bear in mind all I ever did with Soulforce was upload an avatar and join this forum, so I can't speak for the group in any capacity. But my personal sense when I saw the scope of the ER was that the focus seemed almost too broad. I wonder if SF would consider trying to establish some ongoing dialogue with a fair degree of depth at a few of those schools (or other organizations)? That's just the opinion of some random person who joined the forum, not that it counts for anything. I get the sense that SF is about direct action, not about long term mediating or lobbying. What do I know?

Venari, would you please tell us what it was about your local SF meeting that turned you off to the group?