Where's Richard Lindsay?

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Venari, would you please tell us what it was about your local SF meeting that turned you off to the group?

This is a personal matter I do not feel comfortable discussing in a public forum. Part of it was the broader interactions I had with the local supporters and the local people who had set them selves up to be the leader.

I do think Soulforce is in a place to effect great change. I do also believe the means in which they attempt to effect these changes are ineffective and leave too much open to "back lashes." That is supporting GLBT students at Christian Universities is a necessity... but copying something that worked in the 60's shows no real means to a change and only is an effort to copy what another had done in hopes it will work as well for you.

So I say I my view have changed and I was proven wrong. The visit to NCU was not as disastrous as I had thought it would be. But now the GLB students are left in a limbo of being empowered but with no one to support them. This is why I am doing what I can on campus.

This goes back to the question of where is the man who vowed not to leave... it seems his words and actions were hollow shows for the camera and not really in support of the students.

-Venari

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Venari

This is a personal matter I do not feel comfortable discussing in a public forum. Part of it was the broader interactions I had with the local supporters and the local people who had set them selves up to be the leader.

this is one of the frustrating things in the conversations with you Venari. You make statements that seem to have serious content, but then you refuse to offer more information when pressed on those statements.

So I say I my view have changed and I was proven wrong. The visit to NCU was not as disastrous as I had thought it would be. But now the GLB students are left in a limbo of being empowered but with no one to support them. This is why I am doing what I can on campus.

I may have missed it. What are you doing on campuse to help lgbt students? are you meeting as a group? are you devising strategies to change policies? have you met with administration? what is happening besides a group of people getting together and making fun of another group of people?

This goes back to the question of where is the man who vowed not to leave... it seems his words and actions were hollow shows for the camera and not really in support of the students.

-Venari

have you contacted Richard? I believe his email is available at the equality ride website. What would you like for him to do? what could soulforce do? what could members of this forum do to help? what can you and other NCU students do to make NCU a friendlier place for LGBT students?

[Venari]

Originally Posted by keltic63

this is one of the frustrating things in the conversations with you Venari. You make statements that seem to have serious content, but then you refuse to offer more information when pressed on those statements.

Keltic,

I would not ask you to divulge information about you that you are uncomfortable sharing, I would take you at your word for what ever reason you have a reason for your actions. Just as I have my reasons for not getting involved or wanting to be involved with SF at the local level. I am part of other groups but just choose not to support the actions of SF here.

Originally Posted by keltic63

I may have missed it. What are you doing on campuse to help lgbt students? are you meeting as a group? are you devising strategies to change policies? have you met with administration? what is happening besides a group of people getting together and making fun of another group of people?

We are trying to organize as a group to have a stronger and more visible voice, just taking baby steps. Also, no were not having Anti-Richard meetings as seems you would paint it. This is a joke being shared by many students, yes a few GLB students do joke about this but for reasons I previously stated.

Originally Posted by keltic63

have you contacted Richard? I believe his email is available at the equality ride website. What would you like for him to do? what could soulforce do? what could members of this forum do to help? what can you and other NCU students do to make NCU a friendlier place for LGBT students?

No, why should I contact him? He promised to support GLB students at NCU and didn’t follow through. So we're organizing to support ourselves. Which is why I asked in a public stetting; Where is Richard Lindsay... it may have been better had he not attempted to do one better then the teachings of Jesus and had just shook the dust from his feet and left.

-Venari

Also as a side note there a few people who have sent me Private Messages and I have gone into greater detail aspects of my life. If you have some serious concerns please send me a private message / e-mail and I may be more open to discuss personal issues.

Thanks,
Venari

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Venari

Keltic,

I would not ask you to divulge information about you that you are uncomfortable sharing, I would take you at your word for what ever reason you have a reason for your actions. Just as I have my reasons for not getting involved or wanting to be involved with SF at the local level. I am part of other groups but just choose not to support the actions of SF here.

then why put it out there? It's like you're making an accusation, then refusing to back it up under the guise of not wanting to reveal personal information. It feels very much like "I have a secret" and you want us to guess about the grave information you have.

We are trying to organize as a group to have a stronger and more visible voice, just taking baby steps. Also, no were not having Anti-Richard meetings as seems you would paint it. This is a joke being shared by many students, yes a few GLB students do joke about this but for reasons I previously stated.

what is your reaction to the "jokes"?

No, why should I contact him? He promised to support GLB students at NCU and didn’t follow through. So we're organizing to support ourselves. Which is why I asked in a public stetting; Where is Richard Lindsay... it may have been better had he not attempted to do one better then the teachings of Jesus and had just shook the dust from his feet and left.

-Venari

why shouldn't you? in your original post in this thread, you link to a webpage that has his email address and a phone number. if you think he has made a claim to help, then left you high and dry, put the heat on him! call him on it! You're saying there's damage done. Here is your opportunity to ask the ER to put up or shut up! why come in here and whine about it? Do something!

[Dash]

These are easy questions.

Laughter always follows a near miss. When the storm is over and the house is standing, fear is transformed into silliness. Only just avoid a collision, and you are bound to burst into hysterical laughter.

The open and/or closeted community at NCU is in a post-trauma state. There is nothing unusual about their joking behavior, and neither should it be considered a sign of any failure on the part of the Equality Riders.

We are as glad as that community if they suffer no lasting harm in the wake of the Ride.

As for Richard Lindsey...I do not think it is reasonable for anyone to assume he, or the riders, or Soulforce were going to maintain a permanent presence at NCU. They had a plan and a limited amount of time to complete their efforts. He took a stand...made a statement. I don't know that it was perfect, but he did what he could.

Here's the simple truth: none of us knows how this goes.

We are doing our best...we are trying a big try...and we'll keep trying till one day something clicks....till the lock finally opens. Not every attempt will work equally well. Folks can criticize or jump on board.

It seems as if there is a faulty assumption that Soulforce is not available to the GLBT individuals or groups at NCU now that the Equality Riders have finished this year's trek. If anyone at NCU wants the support of Soulforce and access to the resources they can provide, I'm sure all they need do is ask. If they seek assistance, I suspect that Soulforce will be fully engaged. Conversely, if the gay community at NCU wants to work on their own, I do not doubt they'll still have Soulforce cheering them on in their efforts.

These are easy questions.

There are much more difficult ones out there.

[Venari]

Originally Posted by keltic63

then why put it out there? It's like you're making an accusation, then refusing to back it up under the guise of not wanting to reveal personal information. It feels very much like "I have a secret" and you want us to guess about the grave information you have.

Well, all I said in "How did you hear about Soulforce post" is I have known about SF for a while and after meeting some of the people I chose not to be involved. Then someone asked why and I said it was a personal matter that is all you need to know.

Originally Posted by keltic63

what is your reaction to the "jokes"?

I think they are kind of cheeky and I try not to laugh, sometimes a person may need to be mocked to better view their actions though the eyes of others. Over all I am not going to try and stop other students from telling them, but if I am discussing issues regarding the GLB student body and someone makes the jokes I divert back the subject.

Originally Posted by keltic63

why shouldn't you? in your original post in this thread, you link to a webpage that has his email address and a phone number. if you think he has made a claim to help, then left you high and dry, put the heat on him! call him on it! You're saying there's damage done. Here is your opportunity to ask the ER to put up or shut up! why come in here and whine about it? Do something!

Well, we have little belief that he will honestly help. A few of us had contacted the local SF office previously and were given the brush off.

So by coming here I am hoping to create "dialogue" over the issue of coming to these campuses to support GLBT students then leaving no real support.

Keltic, do you think making a claim to one up the Bible and block the entrance to the cafeteria for a few hours then leaving really shows an honest attempt at support for GLB students at NCU? How serious should we take the words and actions of the Equality Ride?

Whining is offering a complaint while offering no real solutions. I am trying to make a solution at NCU and if you read my posts you will see I am recommending better follow though and follow up with the campuses being visited.

-Venari

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

Could I have worded my post better, probably. But then with better working the feeling of division between the students, GLB and allied, and groups like Soulforce would not have been conveyed as well.

Well....that say it all doesn't it? Yes. You could think about what you put in print. It has only been in subsequent posts that the underlying issues and nuances have come out. One who responded to you got it right: its all reaction and no action. What does that serve, I ask you? Your ego?

It's as it you put up a shield to your reader and then demand that everyone figure out what's behind it. This gets real tiresome after awhile. It also defeats any depth of interation between parties (oh...yes...it does leave you in control doesn't it?). To put it simply, its the tactic of someone striking first for fear of being struck at. I know you have criticised me for intuiting your actions, however, your words speak for themselves.

That's something to look at.

But James is the expert in this department. I defer.

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Dash

It seems as if there is a faulty assumption that Soulforce is not available to the GLBT individuals or groups at NCU now that the Equality Riders have finished this year's trek. If anyone at NCU wants the support of Soulforce and access to the resources they can provide, I'm sure all they need do is ask. If they seek assistance, I suspect that Soulforce will be fully engaged. Conversely, if the gay community at NCU wants to work on their own, I do not doubt they'll still have Soulforce cheering them on in their efforts.

Dash, you raise a good question; the issue of the support of SF or not. The real question if the help is not offered what basis do we have to believe the help given when we ask will genuine or will it be just as show?

That is the real question, why hasn’t anyone from the ride of SF made any attempt to contact NCU students of offer assistance. I know they can mass contact us; they did in the weeks before the ride ... why not in the weeks after?

-Venari

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Venari

Keltic, do you think making a claim to one up the Bible and block the entrance to the cafeteria for a few hours then leaving really shows an honest attempt at support for GLB students at NCU? How serious should we take the words and actions of the Equality Ride?

Whining is offering a complaint while offering no real solutions. I am trying to make a solution at NCU and if you read my posts you will see I am recommending better follow though and follow up with the campuses being visited.

-Venari

I don't think that making a claim to "one up the Bible" was a wise strategy. Blocking doors is certainly an attempt to call attention to some policies that are unfair at NCU and other college campuses. However, I don't think that the statement diminishes the seriousness of Soulforce and the actions of the Equality Ride. I hear what you are saying about follow-through.
The whining I'm referring to is what you are doing here. I really have to agree with Daniel when he says you are an agent provocateur. You've made a statement that seems to have no other purpose than to start an argument. If you have a beef with Richard, call him on it!
If Soulforce hasn't done anything for NCU, then please tell us what you're going to do differently! you've complained at length about the ER's visit to your campus. Now, what are you doing? Really, outside of getting together with a few closeted students, what have you accomplished on campus? would you have done this if Soulforce hadn't shown up and stirred up things?
and again, I ask, what do you think we can do to help?

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Daniel

To put it simply, its the tactic of someone striking first for fear of being struck at. I know you have criticised me for intuiting your actions, however, you words speak for themselves.

Yes and no... I have seen how people respond and react on this message board and had I just listed out A. B. C. and D.; there would not be the discussion we are having now. Only by placing the controversy arising in a format to really be controversial will people’s true reactions be shown.

That is to see how people respond to those GLB students who are now disillusioned by Soulforce to effectively change and how the over the top actions be some of the Equality Riders have now cheapened the day to one looked at as a joke.

Daniel, I would have hoped you would have sent me an e-mail asking for better clarification of what I was saying and why I was saying it in the way I was.

If any of you had the ability to chapel or classes you would see and hear all the negative things being said.

How does one find a solution in this.

-Venari

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Venari

Yes and no... I have seen how people respond and react on this message board and had I just listed out A. B. C. and D.; there would not be the discussion we are having now. Only by placing the controversy arising in a format to really be controversial will people’s true reactions be shown.

-Venari

I find this to be dishonest. You are admitting that you created a controversy to get people's "true reactions." and yet, the original post isn't your true viewpoint. how is this any different than the accusations you place on the ER and Soulforce?

[Venari]

Originally Posted by keltic63

Now, what are you doing? Really, outside of getting together with a few closeted students, what have you accomplished on campus? would you have done this if Soulforce hadn't shown up and stirred up things?
and again, I ask, what do you think we can do to help?

Well,

I cannot be Moses and stand and say "Let my people go." This is bigger then me and what I want to do. I am trying to network other GLB students so we can make a stand together. This is more active then I have been in the past be debating and attempting to change rules... so that is how the ER had changed what I am doing.

Yes, I am attempting to stir the pot because I am seeing a complacency where SF and the ER and patting themselves on the back for a "job well done” while the GLB students and NCU and other school are scrambling to pick up the pieces.

But it comes down to, as I said in another post. Why isn’t SF forth coming with this help why should we be the ones to seek it out?

-Venari

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Venari

But it comes down to, as I said in another post. Why isn’t SF forth coming with this help why should we be the ones to seek it out?

-Venari

It sounds like you don't know what you want.

[Venari]

Originally Posted by keltic63

I find this to be dishonest. You are admitting that you created a controversy to get people's "true reactions." and yet, the original post isn't your true viewpoint. how is this any different than the accusations you place on the ER and Soulforce?

It is my view point. Where is he?

I chose to use controversial view points so people will better see whets going no and how "we" see things.

Same this here I see you and Daniel choosing to engage in Ad homnium (sp) that is attacking the person and not discussing the subject. I see it as you are choosing to discredit me and how I chose to present my argument verses offering how to resolve the distrust that has developed between the student body at NCU and SF/ER.

-Venari

[Venari]

Originally Posted by keltic63

It sounds like you don't know what you want.

Yes, I think we have finally boiled down to the real issue. SF/ER wanted to get their name in the spot light. But where the rubber meets the road and the time comes to offer real help the GLBT students at Christian Universities there nowhere to be found.

-Venari

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

Daniel, I would have hoped you would have sent me an e-mail asking for better clarification of what I was saying and why I was saying it in the way I was.

You're kidding, right? I'm responsible for intuiting what you write and don't write?

What game are you playing now?

Basta! "La comedia e finita!"

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

Yes, I am attempting to stir the pot because I am seeing a complacency where SF and the ER and patting themselves on the back for a "job well done” while the GLB students and NCU and other school are scrambling to pick up the pieces.

I think my first post said it all....

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

I see it as you are choosing to discredit me and how I chose to present my argument verses offering how to resolve the distrust that has developed between the student body at NCU and SF/ER.

"The medium is the message" A saying of Marshall McLuhan.

Perhaps you forget that you are responsible for what you say and how you say it.

More dodgeball...

I ain't playing that game....

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Daniel

I ain't playing that game....

I don’t want to either.

I am presenting the issues GLB students at NCU are currently facing. If you choose not the address them then this thread is not for you.

-Venari

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

I don’t want to either.

I am presenting the issues GLB students at NCU are currently facing. If you choose not the address them then this thread is not for you.

-Venari

Then don't.

You have a habit of making statements, that when questioned, never get an adequate response as Zerbie and others have pointed out. Why is that? (This is a rhetorcial question) Only you can say. However, your manner of 'discussion' leaves much to be desired. All this clock and dagger stuff is for Masterpiece Theatre, not this forum.

If you want discussion and honest responses, then I would give up the victim status you are so fond of trotting out. It may get you sympathy in the short run, but tries the patience of this reader. It's a poor subsitute for real meaning.

I mean, really, the beginning of this thread: is this how you would address a friend? I would hope not.

Not a basis for a mutual relationship.

Addendum: If it seems I am intent on holding your feet to the fire, you are right. I am. No apologies there. I simply ask you to think about how you engage your reader my dear provocateur. I might add bully to that, but that might be going too far. But I wonder about that. I really do. Do you have any idea how you come across? Do you care?