Where's Richard Lindsay?

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Daniel

You have a habit of making statements, that when questioned, never get an adequate response as Zerbie and others have pointed out. Why is that? (This is a rhetorcial question)

Very simple answer;

I am semi-closeted at my school so I cannot divulge too much personal information. To do so would place my self at a higher risk then I am willing to accept at the moment.

It is interesting you are pointing back to me and all my flaws and not the issue I have brought up. Why it is when criticism arises you and Keltic are the first to point out the flaws with the person and not address the issue they are presenting?

From our off the forums discussions I have been very honest with many aspects of my life... but with the public nature of these forums I cannot be as open with everyone.

If you see this as cloak and dagger maybe you need to think though what its like at a conservative religious school then add to it attempting to talk and toe the line of advocating for GLBT rights. Maybe then you will see why I am selective about what and how I choose to revel things.

Also if you don’t like how I opened my presentation of this topic then a more constructive manner of discussion then accusing me of being deceptive may be more appropriate. As I said I chose to use controversy as a way to convey the feelings at NCU.

-Venari

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

As I said I chose to use controversy as a way to convey the feelings at NCU.

Well. You got contoversy. Are you happy now?

You can hide all you want, but that's a poor excuse in the end for honestly of the emotional sort, aside from the details of your life.

And as to your flaws, it seems you are more than happy to point out those of the creators of this forum and the Riders. In fact, it seems that is all you have to offer in the end. Your expectations have certainly been realized as an earlier post in the thread pointed out.

Care to point out my faults? Go ahead. I'll be happy to deal with them. I can take the heat. Can you?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

It is interesting you are pointing back to me and all my flaws and not the issue I have brought up. Why it is when criticism arises you and Keltic are the first to point out the flaws with the person and not address the issue they are presenting?

Because we care, that's why.

Has it crossed your mind for one second that maybe, just maybe, the issue is tangled up in the personality and a great many things not faced?

[awediot]

THE
"MARK"

LINK

^
M
I
S
S

now what?

[Daniel]

Awediot,

Thank you for the correction which made me laugh. Always good medicine.

From my point of view, as someone who has interacted with Venari both publicly and privately, I only wish to point out that there is more here than meets the eye.

[tdogg]

Venari,

Reactive - complaining (whining), asking questions "why" without doing your own searching, sitting around talking about how awful the ER experience was and how they aren't doing any follow up, waiting for something to happen.

Proactive - getting on the phone, email, letter writing - ask the people involved your questions, start dialogue, don't sit around and wait for an event to happen - create it yourself, start a GSA in your school even if it's a secret/closeted one (find a 'safe house' to meet in), write letters, news articles, bulletins, there are lots of things you could do to affect change.

This requires burning of calories and action - don't wait around for someone to call or email you - CALL AND EMAIL THEM. Nothing is done by those who wait for something to happen. What is the quote "Be the chang you want to happen"? Be in this instance is a verb and that means some action has to happen. So, the ER happened, it didn't go perfect for you, great we get it, we see your point (your general point because like others have said you continuously fail to provide any real details to backup your claims) - now, what can you learn from this and do to proceed, progress and get on with life. You know, there are two sides to every story and a good beginning would be for you to get in touch with some of the ER participants and find out what led them to do what they did - get their side of the story. That would mean LISTENING with an open mind, open ear and open eye and then perhaps find out what you and the other students could have done differently to make it a more positive experience for everyone. That is not to say your feelings and thoughts are not valid, but having true dialogue means to see all sides of a story, gather your facts, take the positive and learn from the negative and get on with business.

Continuing this discussion (ie, the complaining and questioning) is not proactive and not helpful. It only creates chaos (stirs the pot) and does nothing to help you progress. Get up, pick up the phone, or a keyboard, and initiate it YOURSELF. You may be amazed at what you can accomplish when you actually attempt to accomplish something.

Ok, probably overdone here and I really am rooting for you and what you are trying to do Venari. It would just be nice to hear some action from you instead of reaction that's all.

[Zerbie]

A significant problem with deliberately phrasing your opening post to create "controversy" is that it obscures your own point. I have spent this entire thread trying to figure out what it's about. Therefore, any response you get from me is a sorta , well, if Venari means X then, okay, Y, but if Venari means ABC, then, no, ZYX. In other words, because I don't know what I'm actually talking about, you therefore get an obscured response. It achieves the opposite of your stated goal - to reveal true reactions. Instead, you get a lot of, Huh?

It can be frustrating when someone opens up a subject implying, or even stating explicitly, that there is a huge worm can underneath, then backs away from giving at least some indication what that stuff is about. I would like to know the answer to my question. However, I respect your right to reveal as much or as little as you choose. But bear in mind that when you come from a position of being significantly closed off, it makes communication difficult and can lead to further misunderstanding.

We are trying to help, Venari. I don't know if it looks that way to you or not, but we are. I strongly recommend you consider some of the things that have been said to you, especially in Tdoggs excellent post above.

If you are not clear in the communications you toss out to the world, you are likely to receive back mud. That, methinks, is the biggest problem you're running into on this message board.

[awediot]

What is an opportunity to examine how the efforts of SF can be improved has turned into an attack on the messenger. If the PMs and style of the messenger overshadow this rare chance to hone the activism, message, target and impression SF wants to impress on its opponents, then puppies,poems, books, fantasy weddings and less seminal observations will bury this board like an oyster deals with a grit of sand.
This exchange has given me a better understanding of the difference between 'the SF forums', and SoulForce the organization.

It also finally inspired me figure out that:

There are 1187 members, 274 active members, which leaves 913 as inactive (what qualifies as active or not I don't know)
out of the 274 active, approximately 30 have posted regularly in the last three months; less than 10% of active members.
(stats from SoulForce community forums page, 5/16/06 )

I don't know what conclusions to draw from this, or know the impact of anonymous 'guests' on the organization or our impact on them. Often it is stated that what is posted here does not represent the Organization of SF. Many of us simply like the message of the group, and in all honesty, have nothing more invested in it than taking pleasure in using its format to forge new friendships, give and get info., share shoulders, live vicariously or just delight in seeing our thoughts 'published'. It is not up to us to 'straighten out' the mistakes of the organizations actions or take any credit for its success. We are, however, its most publicly available mouthpiece and self-appointed think tank. I have wondered why more 'staff', administration, and for that matter equality riders do not at least chime in on occasion, considering some of the important topics that get discussed. The inner workings and inclusive communications of the decision makers has nothing to do with this forum, and I guess that surprises me a little since so many 'guests' seem to think we are their representatives...

Where indeed IS Richard Lindsay?

Just a thought to keep in mind as/if this dialog continues, and when the next similar one comes along.

[Venari]

Zerbie,

Sorry for the confusion. But I chose the write in the manner I did to convey the feelings of students at NCU and so the readers here would get a better view of the controversy.

That said, people are assuming WAY too much.

As I said I and others are in the beginning stages of organizing the GLB students at NCU as best as I can where it goes from there I don’t know.

Also, SF/ER has shown the ability to mass contact students at NCU in the past (attached below is a mass e-mail received by many NCU students) but no further effort has been made to reach out to the GLB students at NCU.

So the question remains where is the support that was "show"/ "promised" on April 17th?

Soulforce is the one that came to NCU and caused this issue in the first place so why should we be the ones to turn and seek them out for assistance now?

How can we not take all the action on April 17th as just a show for the camera when now SF is no where to be seen offering help the GLB students at NCU?

Why come if there is/was no intention for follow up and though with the action taken on that day?

These are the important questions... and I want to know the answers!

-Venari

From : <xanga@xanga.com>
Reply-To : <davidd@equalityride.com>
Sent : Wednesday, February 22, 2006 8:34 PM
To : <XXX@msn.com>
Subject : Soulforce Equality Ride at NCU on April 17th!!


davidd@equalityride.com has sent you this message!
------------------------------------------------------------

Dear XXX,

I wanted to let you know about an exciting opportunity to live out your faith in Jesus and support the Soulforce Equality Ride when we visit North Central University on April 17th. If you are interested please visit
www.equalityride.com for more information.

Peace,

David

================================================== ==========
This email was sent to XXX@msn.com. If you wish to edit your Xanga
email settings, you may do so here:
http://www.xanga.com/private/profilecontact.aspx

[NathanATX]

If you have suggestions for doing things better or differently, just make them.

Most of the people working with soulforce are volunteers and while I'm sure everyone--staff & volunteers-- is committed to excellence, I'm sure there are definite opportunites for improvement.

You do have some great suggestions underneath all the drama of "why didn't he email me back," et. al.

People might respond to your suggestions more readily if you weren't continually in attack mode.

so be cool man ...

Make a list of what you think could have been done better/more efficiently. Maybe the soulforce crew will agree with you, maybe not. Maybe volunteers will agree to help do some of your suggestions, maybe not.

[Venari]

As I have said and shown they have managed to contact many NCU students in the past to ask for our support so it can be done now to offer support. The ER seems more willing to want us to support them then not offer support to the students speaks a lot about the organization to many students.

So where is the follow up for the school they visited?

How this follow up is made is up to those involved in Soulforce... What I am seeing is more GLB students at NCU more hurt and confused in the wake of the ER's visit then before it. I made my own choice to explore ex-gay ministries but now I am seeing a number of students being pressured into going by friends and family.

What I am saying is Soulforce and the Equality Rider need to follow up with the school and the students they have impacted. How this follow up is made is up to those involved in Soulforce. But there is a clear need for follow up.

-Venari

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Venari

What I am saying is Soulforce and the Equality Rider need to follow up with the school and the students they have impacted. How this follow up is made is up to those involved in Soulforce. But there is a clear need for follow up.

-Venari

Thanks! That was perfect!

Who can handle organizing a followup program? Jamie? Schoolboi?

edit: I emailed davidd@equalityride.com and asked if he could send a followup email.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by dewdrop_world

Who is it on this site who has the Gandhi quote in his sig? Maybe Joe B.?

"First they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win."

That would be SolInvictus. And since we're asking where people are in this thread, I'm wondering where did he go? Everyone private message SolInvictus now and tell him you miss him.

Ok, now to answer the big question. Where is Richard Lindsay? Richard is staying with Mel and Gary in Lynchburg, VA. He was brought onboard to handle the duties associated with being the media contact person traveling with the Equality Riders. He will be working with Soulforce as a media contact for the upcoming action with Focus on the Family.

Now Venari, you want to know why Richard is not at NCU. Well, the short answer is that Soulforce is not sending him there. So let Richard off, it is Soulforce who you are really upset with.

I think it is evident that the NCU stop was not a particularly bright spot for the 2006 Equality Ride. But I have a hard time gaining a clear assessment of your posts because you grant so much grace to NCU and president Anderson, yet heavily criticize the Equality Riders and Soulforce. For anyone new to these forums, I ask you to take five minutes to listen to President Anderson discuss gays in the context of child molestors and sex with animals. Here's the link: www.nlnews.org/Anderson_9-16-05.mp3

Originally Posted by Venari

I defend Dr Anderson for I know the man is one of the most honest, sincere, kind, caring, compassionate... I can go on again... person I have ever met.

Now compare

Originally Posted by Venari

...repairing the bridge the ER dropped a torch on when they left.

Originally Posted by Venari

...while the GLB students and NCU and other school are scrambling to pick up the pieces.

So Venari, I have to say that with regard to NCU and the Soulforce Equality Ride, I have a difficult time taking much of your criticism to heart when you are so gracious to your oppressors and so angry with GLBT activists.

Now, you did eventually post this, which I what I would like to see this thread deal with.

Originally Posted by Venari

What I am saying is Soulforce and the Equality Rider need to follow up with the school and the students they have impacted. How this follow up is made is up to those involved in Soulforce. But there is a clear need for follow up.

Now before we start, I do want everyone to keep in mind that Soulforce operates with a yearly budget of about $450,000 and last I heard the Equality Ride took about 40% of that. And while the 10 staff members work for less than the going rate, nobody on staff works for free. So unless a huge grant comes our way, placing staff members in each of the 19 towns of the schools that were visited in not possible. (Although it should be noted that one of the Equality Riders went back to Lee University after the ride was over and stayed for several days.)

So what can we do for follow-up? What might truly help closeted GLBT students at the schools move forward with seeing themselves in a whole new light. Suggestions?

My first suggestion would be a kit containing GLBT friendly books that could be sent to a contact person at the schools (if we do indeed have one at all the schools). The contact person would need to have a desire to see closeted students get those books.

Maybe that sounds limited. Do people really feel that Soulforce should not call schools out on their anti-gay policies unless the organization is prepared to invest the necessary resources to see those schools change?

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

My first suggestion would be a kit containing GLBT friendly books that could be sent to a contact person at the schools (if we do indeed have one at all the schools). The contact person would need to have a desire to see closeted students get those books.

I know the perfect student at NCU to work with Soulforce on something like that... he’s not as bitter as me, but may be controversial.

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

Maybe that sounds limited. Do people really feel that Soulforce should not call schools out on their anti-gay policies unless the organization is prepared to invest the necessary resources to see those schools change?

That’s just it. The Equality Ride may be a great idea but at this current time Soulforce is not prepared to respond to the full repercussions of their actions. It seems like you want to rattle the cage but not deal with the potential of having to deal with the pissed off tiger inside.

Finally,

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

So Venari, I have to say that with regard to NCU and the Soulforce Equality Ride, I have a difficult time taking much of your criticism to heart when you are so gracious to your oppressors and so angry with GLBT activists.

As I said I have an existing relationship with NCU and the Assemblies of God and I in no way see them as oppressors. I would put my faith in them to do the best for me before I would place my faith in many "GLBT activists" to do what’s best for me. Many may see this as misguided but these people have been there for me in many ways and though they may disagree with issues of sexuality I know they are kind and caring people... I wish you could see that too.

-Venari

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Venari

That’s just it. The Equality Ride may be a great idea but at this current time Soulforce is not prepared to respond to the full repercussions of their actions. It seems like you want to rattle the cage but not deal with the potential of having to deal with the pissed off tiger inside.

Venari, you already made a good suggestion regarding the need for some kind of followup. We're looking at that. Do you think Martin Luther King Jr. should have not done the Equality Ride without having a good followup program?

I think followup is a good idea. We care about the students. It's also a way to prepare them to work for their own change. HOWEVER, the Equality Ride is not about change at just one school. It's about bringing EQUALITY to all schools. King wasn't trying to end segregation at one or two schools, he was addiressing the injustice that was present at ALL schools.

To that end, the Equality Ride has focused on publicizing the injustices, attempting to dialouge with the targeted schools(however successfully), and by doing non-violent actions to demonstrate against the injustices.

While followup is a great idea, I don't think it is an absolute neccessity. Like many good ideas... if you have one, maybe God is leading you to carry it out.

Finally,

As I said I have an existing relationship with NCU and the Assemblies of God and I in no way see them as oppressors. I would put my faith in them to do the best for me before I would place my faith in many "GLBT activists" to do what’s best for me. Many may see this as misguided but these people have been there for me in many ways and though they may disagree with issues of sexuality I know they are kind and caring people... I wish you could see that too.

-Venari

This is clearly a matter of opinion and we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Of course, the sins of AG churches and homophobic policies of their schools are specifically what the Equality Ride is targeting. We're not saying they are evil, horrible people. I'm sure they have much concern and love for you. In my opinion, and that of many others here, they are harming you and any other glbt students with their misguided beliefs about sexuality. That is what we're targeting: the harm--potential and actual, and the beliefs that cause the harm.

We WILL continue our work to bring an end to spiritual violence. We WILL continue our work to call Christians into integrity and love. We WILL continue to stand and speak for those who are not able to.

These things are not negotiable. You are free to have a different opinion, of course, but don't be deceptive about what you're actually trying to accomplish.

[tdogg]

I saw the Equality Ride event as a 'beginning', bringing the issues to light, letting the students (and faculty) know that there are others out there like them, that they aren't alone in this world, that you will survive coming out and being yourself AND that God loves you JUST THE WAY YOU ARE.

I didn't see it as a full-time job for the participants. I think that's the real problem here. Sounds like Venari and some of his fellow students feel that the event didn't end in April, that it's an ongoing action and of course, since they attend NCU their focus is on how it affected NCU. That's completely understandable.

However, it is obvious that the ER wasn't intended to be a full time job for the particpants and that they have lives and other activities they are participating in so they may not be available to provide extensive visits and assistance. But, they went to the schools, reached out to the students and brought the issues to the forefront. Now, the real challenge is what do the students at each of the schools do with this experience. Real change happens because those involved make it happen. Venari, it really is up to you to go on with what you are doing. Don't expect others to do it for you. If you want real answers to your 'follow up' question, you are going to have to ask some of the ER participants. But Jamie's reply sounds like a reasonable explanation. You are in a position to do something postive and excellent, there are other resources out there besides the ER participants - use them. Maybe that's the question you should be asking - where can we go to get assistance and ideas?? I think there was a thread on these forums regarding web sites and/or organizations that can help you and your fellow students deal with these issues.

Meanwhile, continuing to ask those who post here the same question isn't going to get you any real answers. We will be happy to brainstorm with you on what to do/where to go now. Sounds like you're on the right track, you just need to refocus your energy.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

I know the perfect student at NCU to work with Soulforce on something like that...

Please discuss this initial suggestion with your friend or just ask him or her to contact me at jamie@soulforce.org

If you all are willing, Soulforce will send a kit of GLBT friendly books and videos from our recommended resources. Although we have our own Soulforce resources, perhaps those from other publishers would be met with more acceptance at the moment.

[awediot]

Curious, and curious if anyone thinks it matters... but I e-mailed Richard Lindsay myself just to give him a "heads up" on the topic being discussed, and to see if he would like to respond directly... he replied back to me and I don't feel at liberty to say what he replied.

Did anyone else e-mail him?

[themattperry]

Originally Posted by awediot

Curious, and curious if anyone thinks it matters... but I e-mailed Richard Lindsay myself just to give him a "heads up" on the topic being discussed, and to see if he would like to respond directly... he replied back to me and I don't feel at liberty to say what he replied.

Why not? Did he ask you not too, or is that your decision ... just curious why the secrecy ... I for one would like to know what he said and what you asked him.

[awediot]

No he didn't ask me not to. Don't know if would have crossed his mind I might... At the moment is my decision. It was very innocuous, brief and would be easy to post, but I question if I have that right and am curious if, with all the ranting about follow up, any one else persued the next obvious step. I'll let it ride for the moment...