Reincarnation

[Daniel]

Emproph wrote a very lucid post to another member in the Foyer (Burnout vs Fade Away) that references reincarnation. I can't remember us talking about the subject in depth, so thought a thread devoted to the topic might be worthwhile.

I have my own story about reincarnation, and have mentioned it before on these boards, but before I do that, I am remembering - if I am not mistaken- the early Christians believed in reincarnation up until the time of Constantine, the church became the Church, and the Nicene Creed codified the only true faith.

Ok. Here's my story.

In 1994, I went to see a Past Life Regressionist. What happened? I sat in a very comfortable chair and was talked into a very deep state of mind.

The experience lasted over two hours, but after I came out of it, actually seems like 10 minutes. Afterwards, I experienced a curious state of mind for three days- as though I didn't know what time is was- as though I was outside time. A very curious sensation. I've had glimmers of this state of mind when I meditate for a very long time. However, the sensation doesn't last for days, only hours- if that.

What did I remember during the experience?

I remembered a series of lives. I also remembered the 'space' between lives, one where I could go anywhere, any place and time.

Only one of those lives was vaguely dramatic in the sense of being someone 'important'. And in that life I was an Egyptian priest- a celibate who was a healer.

Another life was that of a woman in Scotland who stood by and let a child drown in a lake, a child that was the product of an incestuous relationship. I remembered being put in jail. And then being let out many years later to die in a convent.

The third life was that of an 18th century Frenchman. That life was cut short by being thrown off a horse - one leg crushed- and dying alone in the forest.

As I remembered these lives, various individuals in this lifetime were present in the past, as mothers, fathers, loves and husbands.

Each time I died in the past, I was met by an energy/presence called Moses, who initiated a process of sifting through the life just left. One where I looked at the lessons learned or avoided. Curiously, he seemed to think that everything was a hoot. Great fun. And too serious to be taken seriously.

Ok. This experience was some time ago. Did I believe it? Yes and no. At the time, the experience had a healing effect on me, which is why I was interested in doing it in the first place. That said, I took it at face value. It was what it was. I found that- over time- I didn't find any reason to make more of it that what it was. It certainly didn't seem to inform thoughts about the future. That would be like driving down the road while looking in the rear view mirror. Necessary perhaps, if the police or a wild and crazy driver zooms past, but it's not a way to get to where one wants to go.

Still, I find the subject interesting as it relates to the concept of karma (Emproph wrote eloquently about this aspect) and the concept of memory. Can we really remember such things? Are they 'real'? If so, is there a good reason why we don't 'remember'? Emproph mentioned one such reason, and that is the pain involved. The 'memory' of dying wasn't bad - I have to say. There were other things about the lives I remember which seemed far more painful. Traumatic even. And who wants to remember all that?

I don't have an investment in believing that reincarnation is true. I just know that I have a very curious experience that I can't explain if but for the possibility that reincarnation may exist. That said, the here and now is enough to take on!

Discuss please!

[Alecto]

I don't like getting too detailed, cause it's kind of a personal thing, but yeah. I think sometimes, if we're dangerously close to making all the same mistakes over and over again, we get nudges / reminders that we've been there and it didn't work out so well.
The concept of actively seeking out my own past lives seems kind of weird to me, because like you say: it really doesn't inform my present. If it was relevant to my present, I believe it would have been brought to my attention already.

[tymejumper]

I am a believer of reincarnation. It makes alot of sense to me that we learn things each time we live and hopefully become a better person in the process, a better life energy.

There are many people that have had regressions like yourself or dreams that they have had no way to know information presented in that dream, but later find it to be true. There is no logical explanation for little boys whom speak German in their dream and when it's recorded and translated it's found out to be a small child crying for his mother in the Natzi death camps, no way this child could have learned the language at 3 and known about the Nazis. To me it's logical that past life exists.

Is it beneficial to remember them? Not always sure about that. I believe we do not remember them ourselves, but I believe that our souls/energy forces never forget the lessons learned from past lives. It is benefical that we do not always remember our pasts as it could really hamper our futures, with the pain and fear we have lived through. I believe it is a protection of sorts that we can't always recall them.

We often do repete the same mistakes in our next lives and we are destined to relive them until our souls learn how to be a better soul I guess, for lack of a better way to explain it.

[Daniel]

I was doing some online research on the subject and found that Origen- an early church father- believed in it. However, the Church didn't look kindly towards his views.

http://www.reincarnation.ws/reincarn...istianity.html

If it can be shown that an incorporeal and reasonable being has life in itself independently of the body and that it is worse off in the body than out of it, then beyond a doubt bodies are only of secondary importance and arise from time to time to meet the varying conditions of reasonable creatures. Those who require bodies are clothed with them, and contrawise, when fallen souls have lifted themselves up to better things their bodies are once more annihilated. They are thus ever vanishing and ever reappearing. Origen, from A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, P. Schaff and H. Wace editors

By some inclination toward evil, certain spirit souls come into bodies, first of men; then, due to their association with the irrational passions after the allotted span of human life, they are changed into beasts, from which they sink to the level of plants. From this condition they rise again through the same stages and are restored to their heavenly place. Origen, On First Principles, B. W. Butterworth, translator.

Not trying to make a point here, but the way Origen expresses himself sounds positively old-line Buddhistic! That is, the soul, because of ones 'passions', becomes a person or a plant! Which calls to mind: has anyone ever remembered being a plant? (I am not trying to be cute.) Don't think I've every come across that. The accounts of reincarnation always seem involve one being a person.

That said, in the experience that I had years ago, I do did remember being a being that could enter other objects, persons and things between lives. However, I wasn't the thing itself. Curious that. The experience suggested that once was outside time, one could replay the film of time and enter it wherever one wished to.

During the experience I told myself that the reason for time is that we can experience love. Once outside of it, we are love. And having never incarnated, the angels envy the gift of being able to love moment by moment.

Just musing here, but I can see that reincarnation would mess with the modern notion of salvation.

[antiochian]

but I am open to the possibility of reincarnation. Many Witches, Wiccans, and Druids believe in it.

My close friend can remember many past lives. She seems to have died violently quite a few times, and has had nightmares about it.

My big question is, since I cannot remember one single past life, how am I supposed to learn from the mistakes I made in those incarnations? A part of me would like to be able to regress, just for the fun of it, but I could have been an awful person in some cases.

Secondly, what comes after the reincarnating is done? I believe it was Wiccan author Scott Cunningham who stated simply that we will be united with the Goddess and live with her forever.

There are people who have claimed to have been taken out of their bodies and travelled to the Christian heaven and hell (I think the 20th century Polish saint Faustina was one such visionary), just as there are those who believe they have seen their past lives. The former will say, "My vision is proof that heaven/hell is real!" The latter may say the same with regards to reincarnation. So, I don't concern myself much with visions and such.

Interestingly, Christians try to use nature as a proof for their beliefs. I'd say nature could be used to "prove" reincarnation just as easily, considering the cycles of life and rebirth in the seasons.

I don't know what comes after death. I guess none of us do for sure. My one wish is to be reunited with my loved ones, whatever the case.

I'm reminded of the time over a decade ago when Betty J. Eadie's "Embraced by the Light" was a national bestseller. A very interesting read, what I can remember of it, but can't remember whether she brought up past lives.

[antiochian]

Ironic that Origin, despite his "heresy," is still considered a fairly important figure by Christian historians today.

[tdogg]

I have experienced quite a few moments where it hits me that I've dreamed of this exact situation. The feeling is very fleeting, but definite. I"ve always thought it would be useful to write down all the dreams I remember, but unfortunately I've never taken the time to do that. What an interesting journal that would be to have on hand.

So instead of remembering past lives, I guess this would be more like remember I've had a glimpse of this exact moment before in a dream. "Predicting the future" so to speak. It is a bit unsettling and simultaneously delightful.

My wife and I joke that if we are reincarnated, I'll be an Arabian horse and she'll be a golden eagle and we shall remain together. Also interesting, she feels that she is an old soul and I feel like a new soul, and we both agree on that. Then again, I wonder if astrological signs would have any impact. Her wise old soul demeanor and ways could be related to her being a Virgo, while I am very much an Aries - impulsive and reactionary, definitely not 'old soul' traits.

[Alecto]

Antiochian; my personal paradigm says that, if you're on the "right path" (whatever that is for you this go-round) then you don't need to be reminded of what you've been through already. If you're not, then something might come along and remind you, as it were.

I know what you mean about personal experience. I always think the idea of proselytizing is really weird, because pretty much everything I believe, I believe because of some intense personal experience (some of which tend to sound a little "out there"); and the idea of me expecting someone who didn't have that happen to arrive at the same conclusions I did - or to just take my word for it - is ridiculous.

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by antiochian

I'm reminded of the time over a decade ago when Betty J. Eadie's "Embraced by the Light" was a national bestseller. A very interesting read, what I can remember of it, but can't remember whether she brought up past lives.

I remember from her book “Embraced by the Light” (she has several now, btw), she said that she was told by Jesus that reincarnation was genetic memory, which was the only cogent argument I’d ever heard against reincarnation as it is traditionally thought of.

That doesn’t seem to make sense though, because wouldn’t every life time that people remembered have to be of someone who had children (who would have also had children, and so on)?

But here she says something different:

Interview with Betty J. Eadie
Tuesday, January 13, 2004

GEORGE: Do you believe in reincarnation?

BETTY: Uh, yes, I believe in reincarnation, but not as we have come to know it here on earth. And, I always believed in reincarnation because that was the only thing that made sense to me before the experience. But during the experience, I actually asked about reincarnation, and I was told that reincarnation upon this earth -- going through life's repeated lives -- would not be necessary for the majority of the people, that there are other worlds that God created, and that our continued education would be best served in those places instead of here.

Based on every book I’ve read on the subject, once you’ve incarnated once, your stuck in the cycle until you’ve learned to overcome all the challenges of life. IOW, without responding to anything with the entangling effects of out-of-control emotions.

If anyone is interested, the best books I’ve read on the subject of the human condition---from start to finish---and how it relates to reincarnation have been a three book series by Robert Monroe.

One of the things he says about it is that people/souls get addicted to physical life, and thus develop and unquenchable “attraction” to the experience. He also describes it as akin to an orbit, life being the perigee of that orbit.

Originally Posted by antiochian

My big question is, since I cannot remember one single past life, how am I supposed to learn from the mistakes I made in those incarnations?

There are many interesting theories and comments about it here and here, some of which match what Betty J. Eadie said above in the interview.

This part seemed to speak to your question, and has been my experience in regard to my past life revelations:

At the beginning of each lifetime, we are cleared of all past prejudices, learning blocks and wrong teachings, and are ready for a fresh start

Also, many NDE (near death experiences) suicides report that the “being of light” tells them that they could stay in the light if they wished, but would eventually have to go back and go through all the things that led them to commit suicide in the first place.

A true motivator for not killing one’s self.

http://www.near-death.com/

[Rick336]

There was a documentary on TV many years ago about a teenager who was in a terrible car accident. She survived the accident but it left her with total amnesia and no memory of her life before the wreck. She didn't know her parents, friends, relatives, where she lived, where she went to school, or even what her name was. She had no recall of her life.

She explained that it was if she had never lived and that he lifer actually began the minute she regained consciousness in the hospital bed after the accident. The injury to her brain had deleted all of her previous memories.

Overwhelming evidence shows that only a healthy, functioning physical brain can produce and store memories. Diseases like amnesia or Alzheimer's effects the part of the brain that produces those memories and they can stop temporarily or permanently.

Neurons in the brain constitute memory and cognitive generation. If the brain stops functioning completely (as in death) these neurons also die. If the girl had not survived the accident her memories would not have magically reappeared and survived. They would still be gone.

Memories do not survive without living neurons. Memories cannot leave the body and enter another functioning brain. Nor can they float around in the air wandering the earth searching for an afterlife. Memories can't be magically transported into another dimension where they survive forever.

Hard physical evidence shows that when the brain dies, the memories die with it. There is no rational evidence to show otherwise. This is why reincarnation makes no sense. With no surviving memories, there can be no reincarnation.

Rick

[Alecto]

There's the spiritual side of things and the physical side of things. Sometimes, they seem to overlap, but by and large your knowledge of the physical side, Rick, doesn't have to preclude the belief in a spiritual side.

"Memories can't be magically transported to another dimension where they survive forever". How do you know? : P

[tymejumper]

Faith in and of itself is belief in things that are unprovable. Sure neurons die, and memories die according to scientific knowledge when the body dies, however, there are also many miracles that happen that science can not prove and simply don't know why they happen. I had one guy that had a raging staph infection and was on a ventilator. His family gathered around to 'pull the plug' on him because of science and assurances of the doctors that he had suffered irreversable brain damage. Well, guess what? They turned off the vent and he started to breath on his own. He is fine and since has returned home and lives a full life.

I am not sure things like this can be explained away scientifically, any more than reincarnation can.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

Faith in and of itself is belief in things that are unprovable. Sure neurons die, and memories die according to scientific knowledge when the body dies, however, there are also many miracles that happen that science can not prove and simply don't know why they happen. I had one guy that had a raging staph infection and was on a ventilator. His family gathered around to 'pull the plug' on him because of science and assurances of the doctors that he had suffered irreversable brain damage. Well, guess what? They turned off the vent and he started to breath on his own. He is fine and since has returned home and lives a full life.

I am not sure things like this can be explained away scientifically, any more than reincarnation can.

Just because an event can't be easily explained doesn't automatically mean that it must be magic. All it means is that an answer has not been found.

Rick

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Alecto

"Memories can't be magically transported to another dimension where they survive forever". How do you know? : P

I don't know. But it's not reasonable to believe something without evidence. Evidence is how we determine what's real from what's not real. There is no evidence that reincarnation is real.

You may ask me, "Where's your evidence that reincarnation is not real?" But the burden of proof is not on me. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

Suppose I pointed to a table and told you that an apple was on the table. You looked at the table and saw no apple. Then I told you that the apple was invisible but it indeed was there unless you could prove that it wasn't.

Would that mean that the invisible apple existed because you had no evidence that it didn't?

Rick

[Alecto]

If I were trying to convince you, then yes, the burden of proof is on me. But I'm not. I'm just asking you to respect the fact that in this case, I have very personal reasons to think that there just might be an invisible apple on the table. I'm not asking you to believe me, or to conduct your life as though there's a whole host of invisible apples lying in wait to trip you up.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Alecto

If I were trying to convince you, then yes, the burden of proof is on me. But I'm not. I'm just asking you to respect the fact that in this case, I have very personal reasons to think that there just might be an invisible apple on the table. I'm not asking you to believe me, or to conduct your life as though there's a whole host of invisible apples lying in wait to trip you up.

I respect anyone's right to believe anything they want. I may not, however, respect that belief.

If someone's belief is that the Holocaust was a hoax or that God believes homosexuals should be executed or that seventy-two virgins awaits them in heaven for detonating a weapon of mass destruction, I would definitely not respect their belief.

I assume you wouldn't either.


Rick

[Rick336]

Alecto,

I went back and read my last post and I wanted you to know that I shouldn't compare your personal beliefs to the beliefs that I mentioned. That is unfair and I apologize.

Rick