I'm always intrigued by psychology.....

[keltic63]

A friend of mine works in domestic violence (at a women's shelter.) To help me with some relationship problems, she told me about a theory of behavior called. Transactional Analysis

Originally Posted by the website

Transactional Analysis became a nation-wide fad in the 1960's due to the best selling success of Eric Berne's book, Games People Play. In this book he assigned engaging names (“Now I’ve got you,” “Kick me,” “I only trying to help.”) for different games. For instance when Jane plays "Why Don' You, Yes But" she asks advice from another but rejects every suggestion so that everyone ends up exasperated. It is the type of conversation which occurs over and over again, especially in therapy groups. It is devious and covert: on the social level, it appears to be a conversation between a person in the Adult ego state asking a question from one or more people who are also in their Adult ego states. What makes it a game is that none of the suggestions are really accepted. The reason for that is that, at the psychological and much more meaningful level, what is really going on is that Jane may need advise but needs strokes even more. Because these strokes are being given in a roundabout way they are not as satisfying as direct strokes would be. This is why the game ends on a note of depressed frustration.

The game "why don't you, yes but" is a frustrating game. All of the advice given is rejected by the person who is asking for help. When the others who have been drawn into the game express their frustration, the player has the "reward" of having his/her existential position reinforced ("nothing ever works out for me. even people who should be able to help are disgusted with me!")

There are other games, and sometimes the games are switched in mid-game. for instance, there's a game called "now I got you, you sob!" entrapment. and one called "kick me"

I can see how keeping these concepts in your mind when dealing with people on a daily basis would be very helpful. If nothing else, when someone is looking for "strokes" you could decide if they were looking for healthy or unhealthy strokes, and choose whether to respond to the behavior.


I was hoping the discussion would help me get the concepts in my head a little more clearly. Anyone ever do any work with this stuff?

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by keltic63

I can see how keeping these concepts in your mind when dealing with people on a daily basis would be very helpful. If nothing else, when someone is looking for "strokes" you could decide if they were looking for healthy or unhealthy strokes, and choose whether to respond to the behavior.

Coincidentally enough I recently had one of those experiences and was able to make that exact assessment and respond accordingly. Now if I could just remember where that occurred, hmmm....

Originally Posted by keltic63

I was hoping the discussion would help me get the concepts in my head a little more clearly. Anyone ever do any work with this stuff?

Not therapy-wise, but I took a year of improv in Chicago (1 night a week). I remember when I signed up they said that some businesses would have their new employees go through the first six week part of the course. To improve their bond and tweak their critical thinking, imagination, ideas skills, etc., which are definitely skills I got out of it and still use. It really teaches you a formula for out of the box thinking.

We did play one game like you described, but most of the exercises we did were about creatively finding a resolution where none seemed to exist. I think those kinds of interactional games are an excellent “hands on” way of learning, and definitely applicable to life situations.

I think it comes down to creative ways of learning how to better to communicate. I would highly recommend that format, very effective.

[DColeman]

Joke below
-----------
Maybe advice just sucks a majority of the time. (Just kidding; I say this tongue in cheek.)

Actually, I have to ask you all for some advice. Maybe you can list out ideas for me.
Where can I get my indirect pseudo-strokes without asking for advice?

Oh, by the way-- all your ideas suck already.

"Where should I apply for a job? Throw out some ideas," was one I asked recently of a friend. I actually was hoping for a good answer, but his answers, well-- sucked. (Burger King!!?/? Come on!)

LOL,
-David, who certainly doesn't want to have an adult ego... how boring

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by DColeman

Oh, by the way-- all your ideas suck already.

Well, you're pretty good at shooting down ideas before they've even been heard. Have you considered anti-gay fundamentalist evangelism? The election's coming up, I hear they're looking for people.

[keltic63]

I'm going to have to buy the book!


take a look at the description of the game "kick me"
http://www.ericberne.com/games/games...lay_kickme.htm

does this happen to a lot of people while they are in the closet?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by keltic63

Anyone ever do any work with this stuff?[/SIZE][/FONT]

Yes. In the sense that, at the fine age of 47, I've come to learn, or at at least I've observed, that my early experiences have indeed shaped my thoughts and actions. So much so, that it shocks me to this day just how much. And this goes way beyond realizing that- say- for instance- that one is becoming one's parent- and not always the nicer one- if there is one.

How its worked for me: I've caught myself responding to my beloved of 14 years in ways that echo my interaction with my father. He could be one angry guy. And when I get confused in my life I see that I'm expecting that anger to 'be there for me'. I've had to work hard, and I mean really hard, to keep my head on straight (ok...no jokes here!). And while I know intellectually what's going on, that hasn't meant that I can stop it when it gets activated. It's like I've been programmed- we're talkin' defenses here- to respond in certain ways which, at the time helped me. Now? My flinchs are echo's of the past.

And guess what? This plays out badly. If I get it into my head that my beloved IS mad at me- when in truth I'm just seeing a shadow from the past- I get defensive all over again and can start creating a nice trauma in the present that makes me feel like I'm in the past- where I'm all too comfortable. Got that? We're talking about a vicious circle here.

What to do?

Compassion and more compassion. I cannot stress this enough. Blaming myself or my beloved for my misperception gets me absolutely nowhere. That's just another distraction for facing what was and is. I truly believe that Love is the answer. But we have to find it within ourselves. We have to learn to love that wounded child within us for these kinds of games to stop. Embracing the hurt and trauma that caused us to become so defended in the first place is what is necessary. It ain't fun. It isn't pretty. But I can say from experience that it does get easier. And only we can do that.

Sometimes I think that relationships are a Path unto themselves. Our beloved's appear in our lives to teach us, help us experience love. Their presence also, paradoxically, brings up all our defenses against it. I agree with Vanessa's line below her posts which says something to the effect that 'what we fear is love itself'. We fear what we can become. What we are.

What to do?

Get off the blame game. Get Real. Get Quiet. And get with God. I don't see any other Way.

[DColeman]

Originally Posted by Emproph

Well, you're pretty good at shooting down ideas before they've even been heard. Have you considered anti-gay fundamentalist evangelism? The election's coming up, I hear they're looking for people.

You just reinforced my existential position, Emproph! Of course nobody would have taken this seriously. boo hoo.

:-p

[BillPLed]

Originally Posted by keltic63

I was hoping the discussion would help me get the concepts in my head a little more clearly. Anyone ever do any work with this stuff

I have not used TA exactly, but I do remember learning about this some in undergraduate school for social work. However, I do use some of the basic concepts often in my therapy group where I work in an in-patient substance abuse clinic.

As a matter of fact, just this week I had one of my clients use the very "game" referred to above. I call it the "yes, but" response. This particular client asked the group for help with an issue and when everyone was offering feedback he was constantly saying "but" and then staying stuck in his problem. He seemed to have no real interest in getting out of the problem and into the solutions that were being offered to him. I simply pointed this out to him. I told him, "You are asking for our help and the guys are trying to give you some suggestions, yet you keep saying 'but.' That little word basically means that you are negating everything they are telling you. You are saying, 'yes, but.' 'Yes I hear you, but this is what I think.'"

He has used this very strategy a few times since then as well. My approach is to keep letting him know that we see this "game" that he is playing and to help him to see how ineffective it is. If I and his peers continue to reflect this back to him than eventually he might get the picture and change this dysfunctional communication style. My goal is not to get frustrated with him, but to be compassionately persistent in my feedback to him about his behavior.

I can certainly see how this approach would be useful in our interactions with others in the non-violent approach to human rights. We can become conscious of the many "games that people play" and learn how best to respond to them instead of react to them.

[awediot]

YES! I catch myself doing this. Sometimes for the reason stated. I get set in my ways, know they are unhealthy, and seek the illusion of help to fool everyone,"at least I'm trying..." (whew, first step)

BUT, Many times there is alot of 'buts', and I may honestly be seeking a solution and take others suggestions to heart, but (I cant write that straight faced now btw) if I see a flaw in said suggestion, thus 'but', I am merely expressing why and how it may not work for me, and/or pointing it out to see how you may gotten around it. It is not being contrary for its own sake...(remember I'm the guy who found fault with the golden rule...)

It is harder for the therapist to find a seamless solution (is there such a
thing?) which invokes a genuine "YES! Yes, very true... " Then the lovely silence of Truth soaking in, than to raise this "game" as an accusation, which can just confound a patient into a wordless withdrawl, or meaningless agreements just to get you to leave them alone. (If I agree with you will you shut up?...on of my oldest buttons) This is especially true with a very intelligent patient who's "buts" are well thought out, trigger a "never thought of it that way" doubt in the suggesters mind, much less the therapists, and pull the whole process back wards unexpectedly, out of the therapist's control.

Ideally, all 'buts' have been accounted for and any suggestion basically corners the mind with admitting of Truth left as the only way out. There is not always a but possible, but we can alway look

[Dash]

Originally Posted by awediot

There is not always a but possible, but we can alway look

Actually....I'd feel more comfortable, friend, if you would stop looking at my but. Thanks.



(sorry...couldn't resist)

[awediot]

Hey, an avatar is as an avatar reveals...


(sorry back. just as irresistable)

[NathanATX]

I think a lot of times, we have or "know" the answers to our own problems... without being aware of them.

Asking open-ended questions is maybe a more effective way to help people pull out of the "yes, but" way of communicating. Help them see that they can create their own peace/direction/wisdom, etc...

How would you advise someone to avoid this situation?
What could you to do have more peace about what happened?
What do you wish you had done differently? Are you going to do that next time?

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

I think a lot of times, we have or "know" the answers to our own problems... without being aware of them.

Asking open-ended questions is maybe a more effective way to help people pull out of the "yes, but" way of communicating. Help them see that they can create their own peace/direction/wisdom, etc...

How would you advise someone to avoid this situation?
What could you to do have more peace about what happened?
What do you wish you had done differently? Are you going to do that next time?

my friend who works in domestic violence told me that she has encountered this with battered women, and gotten sucked into the "yes, but" game. And she's well-trained in the stuff! Open-ended questions are one way of dealing with it. An example she told me about (after she was totally exasperated with the client) was to finally say to her "You came here expecting some kind of help. What did you think would happen by coming here? What would you like to see happen?"

awediot: a true examination of the options wouldn't necessarily mean that someone is playing the game. People who engage in this behavior really do shoot down every idea that comes their way. When those who are trying to help, lose their patience, then the person can move on to the next game such as "why is this happening to me?" or "kick me."

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

I think a lot of times, we have or "know" the answers to our own problems... without being aware of them.

A wise friend once said to me: "If you listen to people very carfefully, you'll find that they will tell you what the problem is, then tell you what the solution is, and then conveniently forget it."