Beauty at the North Central University Stop

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

Venari and I had a conversation today where he was given a choice to either be authentic with this community of people with whom he has developed a relationship over the past two months or take his leave. He chose the latter. I will give him time to reconsider. However if he changes his mind and desires to participate further, he first needs to tell everyone who he is with regard to the Equality Ride and NCU (which we now know). I encourage you all to send him your well wishes and challenge him not to leave.

I refuse to answer a few question.

But one I will answer is I am not, never have been and never will be, the Ex-Boyfriend of David. I am VERY close, I can assume you know what that means, to they guy David claims is his Ex and who claims never dated David.

It seems assumed I am and I just dont want to deal with drama anymore.

I will talk with anyone who e-mails me but I dont visit here anymore.

[themattperry]

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

I will give him time to reconsider. However if he changes his mind and desires to participate further, he first needs to tell everyone who he is with regard to the Equality Ride and NCU (which we now know).

I have a question about what you mean by this Jamie ... do you mean that you have knowledge about who Venari is, and given that knowledge you think he needs to divulge more about his identity before participating further? Obviously I know that you will not divulge information that is between you and him, which is good. But is there something major here that we are missing (ie -- has he really pulled the wool over our eyes or been otherwise majorly dishonest) or is Venari just being Venari?

That he is a troubled person there can be no doubt ... and that he is loathe to back up much of his invictive with actual fact cannot be denied. But is there something else here that I'm missing?

Sad ....

**SOMEWHAT CLARIFIED NOW ... THANKS -- MATT **

[DColeman]

About follow-up: Yes, it absolutely needs to happen. Of course, it has to be done on a community level more than on a Soulforce level. A GSA? A Church meeting? Yes, those are necessary things we didn't leave behind, and they're the most difficult things to create.

Of course, up until two days before NCU ended the school year, the small Soulforce staff was overloaded and the Equality Riders were working at other schools. Follow-up was honestly on nobody’s mind until now.

So, on some level, I actually appreciate Venari creating a stink about it, though there is a lot of drama I don't feel like commenting on.

Soulforce clearly intends to follow up with the administration for years to come. From what I saw on the NCU "after-the-visit survey," they’ll be contacting specific administrators and holding them accountable. (I lost the survey on the road... Sorry Kara.) Follow-up on an official level probably will never reach the ears of students, though. Neither will most efforts to form grassroots alliances we can't advertise on campus . . .

In fact, given the circumstances, we could form a GSA and students could potentially never hear about it. I tried my hand at it last year by creating glbtncu.com. Nobody uses it anymore, though. It was intended to be a place of support and prayer, but mostly became a place for straight people to express Biblical opinions about us. That's fine, but I really have tried at this and it hasn't stuck yet. Recently, I asked some gay NCU students if they'd heard of glbtncu.com and they hadn't. (I got kicked out of school in part for handing out flyers about it.) It's a tough rock to crack.

I have to mention, though, that the Equality Ride intentionally had a national scope; this is a national civil rights movement-- not focused on lobbying-- not even creating GSAs. It was both focused on all locations and at the same time on none of them. North Central had ONE opportunity to welcome us and create something substantial and lasting, but chose not to. Covering the entire country didn't leave us much time for anything else.

And yet, there was a team of Equality Riders who tried tirelessly to make sure resources existed for students on campuses after we left. We created lists of friendly organizations and handed out business cards listing them as a coalition. Are you aware that one of our coalitions now holds regular meetings on the campus of Oklahoma Baptist University? I'm so glad the community took over where we left off.

Follow-up at NCU WILL happen. The question is: Will students ever know?
... if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it . . .

-David

[Mia14]

I'm sad about what happened with Vernari, but I guess what's done is done.


Bravo, DColeman! I really appreciated hearing your firsthand account of this event. The reports were confusing, and I heard different accounts from each source about what happened and what people felt. It truly is funny how differently people can view the same situation.

I met up with the ride at Eastern University (which seemed to be pretty welcoming) and thought the Equality Riders were very friendly and peacable - not at all threatening.


For the record, you Equality Riders will always be something like heroes to me.

[DColeman]

Aww! Thanks Mia! <HUG!>

OH, and I loved that story of yours, Daniel.

[Zerbie]

I must really be missing something. Assuming Venari even has a personal relationship with an E Rider, or with someone who once had, why is that relevant to the entire forum? I must really be out of the loop - since when is publicly divulging information of a personal nature required to remain part of an internet forum?

I know we have our differences with Venari, he & I disagree on some crucial aspects of philosophy/ideology. There has been some debating with him that borders on flame wars. But, and I say this respectfully Jamie, it does seem inappropriate to require him to divulge personal, identifying information. If things get really bad, why not just ban him from the board? I don't care whether Venari is seeing David Coleman's ex, or anything to that effect. So I fail to see how it is necessary to bring that up. We can all see that Venari has a particular viewpoint, and that is enough to stand on its own. We understand that and we can handle it.

[dewdrop_world]

Was Venari treated in the spirit of non violence here?

James

[suzer1013]

I've kept up with the threads about the Equality Ride, and sometimes I'm left confused. But I wasn't there, so it's hard for me to comment either way.

What I think I can speak to is regarding "follow up" and the necessity for it, and some of the comments about being self-congratulatory, etc.

I went on a mission trip to Sierra Leone, West Africa in February of 2004. It was not a GLBT awareness trip, of course, but it had some of the aspects of this type of action. We went to be a presence, to raise awareness at home, and help in a community for a certain length of time, and then we had to leave. We were on the ground in Africa for just a week, but it was life-changing to us and, we hope, to many of the people whose lives we changed.

First -- when one embarks on this type of trip, whether it be to Sierra Leone or an Equality Ride, the time period is limited. We all have our lives and obligations. None of us were in the position that we could remain in Sierra Leone to continue our work. I would have LOVED to do that, but my life circumstances are such that I couldn't. I'd bet some of the Equality Riders felt the same way -- they might have liked to stay longer, to make more of a lasting change, but they were limited in what they could do.

The biggest challenge for us was remaining connected after our trip. Our trip was our church's first foray into foreign mission. The trip was partly to find out just what the situation was in Sierra Leone, and we only got a glimpse in our week there. We are a bunch of folks, almost all of whom have full time jobs and families, who continue trying to remain in fellowship with people who live far away from us. We had to decide what avenue our mission should take. It has moved in fits and starts, and we still don't have a clear "plan." We do what we can, we are human, we try to follow Jesus' teachings, sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail.

Although Soulforce is certainly more organized than our little mission group, I'm sure it faces the same issue of how to follow up, what is the best way to create and maintain connection with the individuals and schools they visited. I'm sure there have been many discussions on the best way to accomplish that.

I have no problem with some self-congratulation for what they did. They did what they thought was right. They followed their consciences and took action, and they should be proud of themselves. I know we were proud of ourselves after our trip. We shared our experiences, pictures and stories. We also were tired. We took some months to recoup, figure out what to do. To expect an Equality Rider to follow up on an action within a couple of weeks is, perhaps, expecting too much. At the same time, I understand the urgency of a student feeling like "what happened -- they were here, and now they're gone, now what do we do?"

As others have said, the follow up action will be vital and important. And it sounds like Soulforce is taking the right steps to accomplish some kind of follow up. I don't know if that will be "enough" for everyone, but again, we are all human, and do the best we can.

I don't speak for Soulforce. I can only draw from my own experience. There were friends in Sierra Leone who I think were angry at us, who felt that our trip could have been much more useful if we had done "this" or "that" or had followed up in a different way. All I know is that we did our best, and we continue to try. The Equality Riders may continue working with Soulforce, or they may move on and work for GLBT rights in other ways. We all have our calling and follow it.

I hope that folks like Venari, who seem to want more support in some way, can find that -- either through Soulforce or through other avenues. Whether the Equality Ride was or was not "successful" I think will only be judged many months, or even years from now.

Susan

[Jamie McDaniel]

I will post a detailed report tomorrow concerning why I required Venari to be honest with Soulforce regarding his identity if he wished to further participate. If I end up being wrong on this action, I'll publicly apologize. I feel that my past handling of Venari's criticism has not been unkind.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

I will post a detailed report tomorrow concerning why I required Venari to be honest with Soulforce regarding his identity if he wished to further participate. If I end up being wrong on this action, I'll publicly apologize. I feel that my past handling of Venari's criticism has not been unkind.

Good! Hafta say I'm on tenterhooks. The divulging of private information seems so out of context. . . I had to speak up, Jamie, as it looks unfair from my perspective. Anyway, no angry feelings from me, just curiosity and a desire to see all treated fairly. I look forward to reading your explanation.

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

I will post a detailed report tomorrow concerning why I required Venari to be honest with Soulforce regarding his identity if he wished to further participate. If I end up being wrong on this action, I'll publicly apologize. I feel that my past handling of Venari's criticism has not been unkind.

Jamie,

I am done with games. No matter what you think your wrong and there is no way to prove it.

That said,

Accoring to Minneasota State law intentionally doing something taht will bring out a situation of harassment a person, persons or orgiznation can be held liable for such actions.

Needless to say you release any direct personal information about my self or the poerson I am in a realtionship with there will be follow though to the extent MN law will allow us.

I ahve arleady contacted an a attorney who has helped me in the past with Issues with NCU and he will be watching what you post tomorrow.

I am sick of the drama and BS the flys around this message board and if I have to create more then I will ... lets just leave sleeping dogs lie.

-Venari

[Venari]

From : Haven Herrin <havenherrin@gmail.com>
Sent : Thursday, January 19, 2006 8:25 PM
To : "XXX. XXX." <XXX@msn.com>
Subject : Re: response from the Soulforce Equality Ride #2

Dear Sir,

After speaking with David Coleman, we realize that speaking with you
would not be appropriate. We remain open to dialogue in a larger
sense. We also wish you the best of luck in your efforts.

Haven

I have been discussing this current incident with another NCU Student. They made the attempt to contact Jacob/Havenbefore the visit to NCU. After raising concers over the validity of Davids sotry/claims they got this response. When they said they are probably not who Haven thinks they are there was no response.

Isnt it interesting that this situation seems to follow the same pattern. When faced with a challenge they resort to an attack againt the person and not facing the challange.

This is the drama I seek to further avoid. After my recent discussions with people here and seing how Jamie is treating me I have no trust in the good intentions of Soulforce.

Yes I know its 5am, but since its 6am on the East Coast, we're waitinng to see what Jamie decideds to post.

-Venari and BF

[NathanATX]

Is someone missing their sheep's clothing?

[Jamie McDaniel]

Before I begin, Venari, I want to set you at ease by stating I am not going to give out your real name on these forums. I am sure that is what you were concerned about, NCU, the school you love, dismissing you like they did David Coleman.

Venari has posted plenty of criticism of Soulforce. Often vague, sometimes specific, it's clear he is angry (which is fine, anger is not a negative emotion.) Over the past two months, he's quickly climbed our list of posters.

The reason I asked him to be upfront with who he is if he wished to participate further is because Venari is not primarily angry at Richard Lindsay, 33 of the Equality Riders, or even Soulforce. I feel these are secondary to his being angry with David Coleman, his ex-boyfriend.

This is very important in this instance because David Coleman, while a student at NCU, went to school authorities seeking protection from his ex-boyfriend. David did this at the cost of revealing his own sexual orientation to school authorities, which resulted in him getting dismissed. I feel that is telling of David's concern regarding the harassment.

Now I was unaware of Venari's identity until David joined the forums and informed me that he was certain Venari was his ex-boyfriend. I had David read through Venari's past posts and show me why he thought that. It was enough for me to believe David and ask Venari if he was the ex-boyfriend (I'll call him J) who David refers to when discussing NCU.

Venari said he was not, stating he was the current boyfriend of J and that he would have J contact me regarding the offer of books and videos that I had made. That email arrived 3 hours later with J agreeing to work with Soulforce (with some conditions) and apologizing for Venari's being "hot headed at times."

I was aware that Daniel had been private messaging Venari and so I asked Daniel to share with me any information that might link Venari with J. Daniel shared with me the MySpace page that Venari had sent him. I saved the photo from that page (the photo has since been removed by the owner) and showed it to David, who identified him as J, his ex-boyfriend.

With this information, I sent Venari a firm message which included the following:

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

We may continue to disagree about lots of things on our collective search for truth here, but you will not blatantly violate your personal truth and walk with us.

Now, either you be authentic with this community of people who have developed a relationship with you over the past two months or you take your leave. And if you do choose to leave over telling the truth, it will be sad, because I think there are people here who would like to get to know the real you.

I figured Venari would drop the charade, the curtain would open, and we could all start dealing with reality. Instead, Venari posted a final message maintaining his previous statement to me that he was just the new boyfriend of J and threatening legal action.

Venari, you are among people here who know about living with a veneer. We've all done it to some degree while in the closet. And I know that among gay people, you're one who has been through a great deal with regard to family and church. You're free to continue your strong criticism of Soulforce here. No one is going to reveal you to NCU. Why would we do that?

However truth is required of you, Venari. It is for all of us.

[dewdrop_world]

I really regret that things have come to this.

It reminds me of the line from Priscilla: "... like a couple of fat slags at a pie bake-off."

How much of this is about integrity, and how much is just gossip?

Sorry, Jamie, but I think this is a real low point for this board. I'm disappointed.

James

[Venari]

Once again, not sure what this proves.

I my self is not the person in question, a person I am in a close relationship with is that person. I have saved many corresponence I have had with Daniel for the fact I did not feel I could trust him... and from my sucpsion I did set him up to see if he his intentions were true.

Anger at David is basicall his being hishonest about NCU, read all my posts where I make previous refernce to him. Now I know teh full story I know how deceptive he is... probably could have shown him any pic and he would have said it was his ex.

I stand by my position that I am not who Jamie thinks I am, yes I have gone to GREAT lengths and used a lot of smoke and mirrors (some would say deception) to keep my idenity hidden... also it is shocking what great lenghts a soulforce staff memder would go to to find out the identy of someone who didnt what their ideity known.

What ever the case may be I have saved all correspondence if further legal action is needed.

-Venari

[Venari]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

Is someone missing their sheep's clothing?

Saying this driectly, piss off Nathan. Talking about a wolf, look what you do to people on ex-gay message boards. Pot meet the kettle.

[Daniel]

James,

I would pause a bit before I starting throwing "disappointment" in Jamie's direction. Do I come to his defense? Yes. Gladly.

As a hesitant player in the events that have unfolded here, I can only say, without saying too much, that this 'conclusion' to events, if you can call it that, is just. And more than just: generous.

Who has been abused here? I am sure both 'sides' may lay claim to that territory. But in my view, Jamie has acted well and has exhibited a maturity that Venari would do well to emulate. I do not regret giving him the requested information for a second. Why? For the simple reason that my willingness to protect that same information was at odds with the truth. What was I to do? Let a charade continue? For who's good I ask? Nathan is right re sheeps clothing. SF didn't put that on for heavens sake.

I'm sure there will be all kinds of 'taking of side' in the days to come. Self-recriminations being par for the course. Ok. I'll do my own for a sec. What would I do different now that I see what's happened? I would- as I say in another post- Stay on My Own Mat. I've learned my lesson big time. Can't go running off helping those who aren't asking for it and don't want it. But that's my lesson.

Be that as it may: it is my understanding that what has come to be- has come to be- for a reason. What happens now is perhaps much more important.

It was never my intention to tear Venari's face off. He did that himself- all too unwittingly. Libido is as libido does.

Daniel

[Zerbie]

This thread has made me very sad.

I see rightness on both "sides" of the matter, but still say that whether or not Venari is David's ex-boyfriend is both irrelevant and uninteresting. We could all see clearly from his posting patterns that he had an axe to grind with the Ride, and we could have continued to take his commentary with a grain of salt when appropriate, without knowing any of the alleged relationship history. However Venari's message was cloaked, it was feedback about the Equality Ride, and we have to accept that there are going to be people pissed off at the Ride no matter what we do - but we also should look at the feedback and judge whether or not there might have been something to learn from it. Then say simply, 'thanks for the feedback, we are considering it.'

I understand that we have been upset with Venari, but I find this to be an ineffective way of dealing with it. It is like trying to put out a fire by throwing more logs on it. It is a petty situation that is now escalating and escalating. People are feeling hurt, I'd wager not just Venari.

This thread demonstrates how much people can hurt one another with words. With so many Christians, meditators, religious people on board, why has this thread happened? I am very sad.

[NathanATX]

I'm not opposed to Venari being here and even causing trouble.

He's hurting and lashing out.

Knowing the truth is important... It will prevent us from getting sucked into the drama he's trying to create. It certainly helps me be more compassionate with him. And by being compassionate, I do not mean that I am going to "take it easy" on him. I have high expectations for his behavior and will hold him accountable when he's not being as great as he can be.

I deal with young adults on a daily basis and occasionally something like this happens and a situation seems to blow up out of control. The first couple of times it happened, the individuals involved had significant emotional and even mental health issues. One had severe borderline personality disorder.

In those situations and in this one, it is important to get clear as fast as possible who you are dealing with and what the source of their behavior is.

Venari's lack of honesty and manipulative games created a lot of stress and strife here because we believed him when he declared his intentions.

Now having some insight into what he may be going through, we can react less to the drama, and speak to the cause.

He needs affirmation, support, and encouragement. He also needs people who won't let him get away with being dishonest and manipulative. Because he really is a wonderful guy... he just needs us to help him realize it.