Beauty at the North Central University Stop

[themattperry]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

In those situations and in this one, it is important to get clear as fast as possible who you are dealing with and what the source of their behavior is.

Venari's lack of honesty and manipulative games created a lot of stress and strife here because we believed him when he declared his intentions.

Now having some insight into what he may be going through, we can react less to the drama, and speak to the cause.

He needs affirmation, support, and encouragement. He also needs people who won't let him get away with being dishonest and manipulative. Because he really is a wonderful guy... he just needs us to help him realize it.

I can see your point somewhat Nathan.

However, it's my opinion that here on the internet, one's identity is always and forever an abstraction of who one really is ... a construction if you will. I never fully "trust" someone's identity on the internet ... so if Venari wasn't truthful about who he was for whatever reason? I guess that for me it doesn't really matter so much.

What does matter is what Venari had to say -- I debated him very vigorously a number of times, and I always reacted to what he said. What Venari said was often inflamitory, often unsubstantiated and often heresay. I just responded to this, and attempted to show what he said for what it was while simultaneously inviting him into the community here.

On the internet, all we have is our discourse -- what we actually write. As long as what we write does not violate the terms of whatever community we are in, then I don't see the problem I guess.

My mind and heart are divided about what has happened. On the one hand I think Jamie has been exceptionally patient and fair with Venari up to this point -- I've written him as recently as a couple of days ago and said so. On the other hand, I'm not very happy that he is being sent off for not being truthful about his identity. I would ask the admins of this board if that is really a requirement for participation here? My mind is divided ... I'm absolutely convinced that Venari has ulterior motives in posting here .. that much is clear. No one can really be that mad at SF, and there is clearly a lot of anger flying around that has some other root. On the other hand, so what ... can't we just let his vitriol betray itself, refuting it when necessary, ignoring it when appropriate, and also accepting the occasional sincere post that he offers?

I'm still thinking about this stuff, but that's where I am so far.


PS -- Venari, as someone who deals with internet privacy issues and related legal issues on a daily basis, I would really question whether or not you have any legal recourse for any "damages" you may percieve. You engage in this community voluntarily, and when you do that -- in whatever state you reside -- you make your identity known and available to the organizers of the relevant community. Given that no one has revealed your identity anyway, and given also that you have aparently revealed your idenity (or identities) voluntarily to some community members .. threatening legal action is just silly.

But I guess this is America -- anyone can sue anyone for any reason, right?

[NathanATX]

The only thing I would add, Matt, is that while this is an online forum, many of us do actually know each other in real life. I know schoolboi and I met all the Equality Riders... and have hopes of meeting many of you. Keltic met Daniel..., etc.

There is a lot of mutual respect and care here because of the many "real" relationships we have.

That kind of credibility is what Venari is trying to dishonestly create for himself and then to use it maliciously...

He should certainly be welcome here... even to cause drama, but he shouldn't expect to avoid being confronted for his dishonest representations.

[themattperry]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

The only thing I would add, Matt, is that while this is an online forum, many of us do actually know each other in real life. I know schoolboi and I met all the Equality Riders... and have hopes of meeting many of you. Keltic met Daniel..., etc.

There is a lot of mutual respect and care here because of the many "real" relationships we have.

That kind of credibility is what Venari is trying to dishonestly create for himself and then to use it maliciously...

He should certainly be welcome here... even to cause drama, but he shouldn't expect to avoid being confronted for his dishonest representations.

i totally agree with everything you've said. I hope I get to meet many of you as well ...

Confronting Venari is one thing ... banning him is another.

I also don't know the whole story I guess ... but these are my thoughts.

Peace to all!

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by themattperry

Confronting Venari is one thing ... banning him is another.

If there was a question regarding Venari's membership here, as of now he still has full posting privileges. However as the administrator of Soulforce's forums, I am not willing to allow him to continue to lash out at the organization without a certain degree of honesty on his part. I realize that for several of you, the forums are your primary involvement with Soulforce. Yet Soulforce is a larger civil rights movement with several years of history, many relationships, and a long path of future activism for GLBT equality. If there is going to be daily criticism on the part of Venari posted directly on our site, then there is not going to be this deceit. Venari is the ex-boyfriend who a Soulforce Equality Rider reported being harassed by. Healing requires things to be brought into the light, not remain in the shadows.

I am sorry if this action on my part as the administrator alienates any of you. However, I have decided that this deceit goes no further.

[NathanATX]

We do love you, Venari, and want God's best in your life.

[themattperry]

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

If there was a question regarding Venari's membership here, as of now he still has full posting privileges. However as the administrator of Soulforce's forums, I am not willing to allow him to continue to lash out at the organization without a certain degree of honesty on his part. I realize that for several of you, the forums are your primary involvement with Soulforce. Yet Soulforce is a larger civil rights movement with several years of history, many relationships, and a long path of future activism for GLBT equality. If there is going to be daily criticism on the part of Venari posted directly on our site, then there is not going to be this deceit. Venari is the ex-boyfriend who a Soulforce Equality Rider reported being harassed by. Healing requires things to be brought into the light, not remain in the shadows.

I am sorry if this action on my part as the administrator alienates any of you. However, I have decided that this deceit goes no further.

Thanks Jamie,

I don't feel alientated, and it is good to know that he can still post. Dealing with harassment is tough, and there is alot of gray area. I can see that you are up against a difficult challenge and I wish you luck.

Mostly I wish peace to Venari, who I'm sure could use some in his life.

[DColeman]

"Where are they? Has no one condemned you?" (John 8:10b)

Venari, our past doesn't have to exclude you from this group. People seem to like you here, and apparently nobody gives a crap about any relationship we had or not.

There is a constructive element to the things you bring up, and for the most part, I agree with that and hope for the same good things you're passionate about.

Though I'm VERY uncomfortable and I know you are too, I'm perfectly okay with you being here. I'm not okay with upset comments about Soulforce, or other Equality Riders if you're primarily upset with me. That, I can understand.

On the Equality Ride, part of what I talked about was why I got kicked out of North Central. I framed part of that story as involving an ex-boyfriend who the school met with me about, and how coming forward got me kicked out in the end. (If I were you, I'd be uncomfortable with that!)

I hope you noticed how hard I avoided specific details when speaking to media. And believe me, reporters are NOSY. I had to tell reporters over a dozen times "I prefer not to answer that," when it would have been much easier to say something more specific about our situation.

Also, I tried even harder to make sure that I spoke of my own feelings in response to our situation rather than make accusations. I would say, "I felt afraid from him," rather than, "He did this and this and this." That way, it put it on myself and avoided specific details. I’m intentionally careful with my words, but admittedly, others got my careful words screwed up at times.

This thread went way beyond anything I ever wanted it to become, and now our drama is out in the open like dirty laundry.

And the best part is that whatever happened between us, nobody really gives a crap here. (Even Jamie, who simply wants openness!) They like you and want to keep talking! And I don't think it's on a condescending level, either. It's just not a huge deal to anybody.

In fact, I'm pretty certain it's not a huge deal to anybody at all!

"Then neither do I condemn you." (John 8:11b)

[awediot]

Last time I will drag this back to the top...

I want to apologize for the less than graceful way some of my comments came off. But not the comments themselves...

When a half-assed, partially secretive argument gets hung up for all to see, well, we all saw. What a bizarre mix of business as usual, personal fears, anger and love, betrayal, passionate activism and behind the curtain melodrama. The very nature of this INTERNET, public arena and technological pseudo interconnectedness ought to give some grad student a great study topic. Definitely a strange brew...

SoulForce will learn from this, I have no doubt. Though many gaps remain, and will, I believe, from what I can tell, Jamie acted with the best
intentions, but, aside from others impressions, objectively, so have Venari and DColeman... so what the hell do I know? Its one big reason to be glad I ain't the judge.

I appreciate the work the Riders have done for my lazy butt, and expect it to get a little disjointed now and then. Their hearts are in the right place, and I'm more satisfied now that their heads are as well... 'Follow-up' I can only hope is an ongoing, difficult issue for them. It is more important than the stirring up anyday...

Good luck, good thoughts, best of wishes and God bless your on going efforts. (I'm only 3 hours from C Springs, so may get see them in person )