what is femininity?

[Spinning_fiend]

What is femininity? Is it tangible or intangible? Is it required to being a woman?

[Alecto]

You're asking an incredibly complex question; looks like no one feels up to diving into it just yet. I won't lie, I don't either right now (my brain has the dumb today), but it IS a decent conversation to have and I didn't want you to feel ignored.

[Spinning_fiend]

thanks. it's been something I've been asking my friends lately. I'm just very intrigued by the very idea of it. Especially the idea of an ideal woman.

In some form I think that the "feminine ideal" has existed in culture in different forms throughout history. But because it changes it makes me wonder if it really exists or is something just created by society.

[Poetic Awakening]

Wow, this has potential to be a nice one, but it is hard to answer...

It seems like there used to be a lot more interest in having the ideal woman before the '70s, from what I could see in the shift of popular culture. I wasn't there, so again, I am only speculating. But at any rate, as it progressed, and women became more prominent and contributing members in society, men have had to change their ideals... because they weren't the only ones calling the shots.

For instance, it is ridiculous to expect a woman to live in the kitchen and laundry room while the husband goes to work, and then comes home to a nice dinner and a television. It happens, sure, and there are those women who might enjoy that role (I don't see why), but women have been able to break free of prescribed stereotypes throughout the years, and I suppose it's only natural for that to continue happening.

Of course, as society progresses, things change. It's members change on a near constant level. We are hardly the same people we were 40 years ago... even 10 years ago. So I think social restrictions are looked at in a different light, much like many other things today (such as the first and second amendments lol).

Being trans, I sort of ask myself the same question... what is the ideal woman? Who is my ideal? In a way, though, anything more than what you naturally attain (and retain) is put on, and sort of an act. Femininity, if it is about you, then you are feminine. If it isn't, people still want to perceive you, as a woman, to be feminine. "It's how things are meant to be." I suppose just as much as being masculine is pushed on men, if you see my meaning, Femininity is on women.

And herein is the issue, for those who aren't naturally so. Blame it on nature or nurture, it doesn't matter. I think we are at a stage to be able to choose whichever path is best for ourselves, especially in relation to our role in society. If tolerance is our aim, then we have to be ourselves. Otherwise, we would just be oppressing ourselves, am I right?

So in my mind, femininity as it stands today, is an ideal, a virtue to some, and a quality that is often both coveted and despised. We have people all over the smorgasbord, and sooner or later our ideas will catch up. I think it is wrong to feel as though you have to be feminine to be accepted, but feel perfectly okay if that is something you choose and aspire to. If it is in you, it is without you. As above, so below.

But really, this topic has so many layers, I couldn't even dream of covering them all now. I would love to see who other people respond!

[Rick336]

When I was growing up, my dad was always the one who's job it was to put lights on our Christmas tree because that was a man's job. He never once helped put the other decorations on the tree because that was considered to be a more feminine job.

So strings of lights are masculine while tinsel is feminine.

Glowing = masculine. Glittery = feminine.

That's why Rudolph was a boy and Suzie Snowflake was a girl.

For example, if you substituted the name Suzie for Rudolph in the song, it would go:

Here comes Rudolph Snowflake
Dressed in a snow-white gown
Tap, tap, tappin' at your windowpane
To tell you he's in town.

It doesn't work because everybody knows that all snowflakes are girls. But then you're probably going to ask about Frosty the Snowman. But I think it goes without saying that if one owns a magic hat, they can pretty much be any damn thing they want to be.

I hope this answers your question.


Rick

[BenL]

When my husband does a trans/gender presentation, which he does six or eight times a year, he uses the following graphic presentation to get people thinking about questions like the one Spinning Fiend asked. Seeing the chart might be of use in the present discussion.

SEX
Male -----------------------Intersex-----------------------Female

GENDER IDENTITY
Man/Boy---------------Transgender/Genderqueer------------Woman/Girl

GENDER EXPRESSION
Masculine--------------------Androgynous------------------Feminine

SEXUAL ORIENTATION
Attracted to men-------Attracted to both/all/none------Attracted to women

The instruction that goes with the exercise is: Mark the area on each line that best describes you.

While all the qualities listed above are intertwined in any person, there are distinctions among all of them. Precision of language is difficult, but it can help to understand what we're talking about.

[Alecto]

I do think it's important to first recognize that graphic and acknowledge what we aren't talking about: we aren't talking about people's gender identity or physical sex. We're talking about expression and behaviors, and I think in that regard it does come down largely to cultural standards. I look at it kind of like the existence of "gay culture"; I do think such a thing exists, but I also think that it's this loose collection of disparate things that could be considered gay culture. So, what I think of when I hear that word might be different than what other people think of (just like Italian-Americans from different families will have different ideas about their own heritage). So, yeah, I think femininity is any of a number of behaviors (and attitudes?) that could be seen as "feminine". When I do drag, I'm performing as one form of femininity, but that doesn't mean that that's what I think "feminine" is all about. It's what I think one form of feminine can be.

[snuka12000]

Without getting too deep, I believe that "femininity" and "masculinity" are ways that most people subjectively believe that a particular gender should act. Most people think that males/men should be/act “masculine.” Most people think that females/women should be/act “feminine.” Society/culture dictates these roles for each gender. Most people are uncomfortable when men act/are “feminine.” Most people are uncomfortable when women act/are “masculine.”

Society/culture teaches men from when they are boys to be/act “masculine.” Society/culture teaches women from when they are girls to be/act “feminine.”

[Spinning_fiend]

Originally Posted by snuka12000

Without getting too deep, I believe that "femininity" and "masculinity" are ways that most people subjectively believe that a particular gender should act. Most people think that males/men should be/act “masculine.” Most people think that females/women should be/act “feminine.” Society/culture dictates these roles for each gender. Most people are uncomfortable when men act/are “feminine.” Most people are uncomfortable when women act/are “masculine.”

Society/culture teaches men from when they are boys to be/act “masculine.” Society/culture teaches women from when they are girls to be/act “feminine.”

I guess this goes back to my initial question. What I'm getting here is that there is "feminine" and "masculine". That people have attributes that are both of these. But at the same time, culture impresses on people that men must be masculine, and women must be feminine. This means that both these things exist. But do they only exist because of culture?

The thing that gets me, is how we categorize these things. Supposedly, to be feminine we must have feminine attributes and to be masculine we must have masculine attributes. Do women have to be feminine and men masculine? Are we not feminine(womanly)/masculine(manly) when we don't have these things?

And it comes back again to what is femininity? Where does it come from? Is it these stereotypes that bind us (if femininity and masculinity are just stereotypes doesn't that point to their non-existence?)? Should these even exist? Over time has a more rigid construct been developed than what is intended for society? Would we be happier with ourselves just to be humans, and not to be judged based solely on appearances and thrust into categories?

[BrianB]

Originally Posted by Spinning_fiend

What is femininity? Is it tangible or intangible? Is it required to being a woman?

Your question brought to mind my experience of meeting some gay men that enjoy hunting, fishing, and other traditionally masculine activities. My expectation was that they would like more feminine activities. I was wrong to stereotype my friends that way. They like what they like. However, that doesn't fit with the traditional expectation that gay men like feminine pursuits. IMHO, feminity/masculinity are all about other people's expections. I don't think feminity is required to be a woman. It's just what is expected.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by BrianB

Your question brought to mind my experience of meeting some gay men that enjoy hunting, fishing, and other traditionally masculine activities. My expectation was that they would like more feminine activities. I was wrong to stereotype my friends that way. They like what they like. However, that doesn't fit with the traditional expectation that gay men like feminine pursuits. IMHO, feminity/masculinity are all about other people's expections. I don't think feminity is required to be a woman. It's just what is expected.

In my above post I inserted humor into this question because to me it is humorous. The story about my dad not participating in putting tinsel onto our Christmas tree because it was a feminine thing to do is true. To me, it demonstrates how silly the whole thing about femininity and masculinity is.

I don't wear women's clothes, not because I think it's wrong, but because it's not something that interest me. I prefer jeans and t-shirts and work boots because I feel more comfortable in them and because I like masculine attire.

I do, however, put tinsel on my Christmas tree because I like tinsel and life is way too short to worry about the crazy opinions of others about what is manly and what's not. After all, in a hundred years, who's going to give a damn about what I put on my Christmas tree while I was alive?

Nobody.


Rick

[Spinning_fiend]

Originally Posted by Rick336

In my above post I inserted humor into this question because to me it is humorous. The story about my dad not participating in putting tinsel onto our Christmas tree because it was a feminine thing to do is true. To me, it demonstrates how silly the whole thing about femininity and masculinity is.

I don't wear women's clothes, not because I think it's wrong, but because it's not something that interest me. I prefer jeans and t-shirts and work boots because I feel more comfortable in them and because I like masculine attire.

I do, however, put tinsel on my Christmas tree because I like tinsel and life is way too short to worry about the crazy opinions of others about what is manly and what's not. After all, in a hundred years, who's going to give a damn about what I put on my Christmas tree while I was alive?

Nobody.


Rick

True. I feel the same way. I does what I likes, and I likes what I does. But being a woman has little impact on what I think is fun (excluding cultural influences).

There was an additional question I was thinking about. Is femininity/masculinity necessary? Now I mean this question in a purely philosophical way. The question of necessity is an important one. Is there something in our makeup (no pun intended ) that makes being feminine or masculine necessary? Or to put it another way, is there something in humanity that makes it necessary for us to live femininely/masculinely? And if it isn't necessary then why does humanity have it/envy it/strive for it?

And we still don't have a clear definition of what these things are. Anybody want to give it a go?

[celestial_rain]

well, I read an article a while ago called "'Night to His Day':The Social Construction of Gender" for a class of mine. While much of what it said I already thought, it helped put it into words for me. Gender is a construction of society through name, dress, and the use of other gender markers whereas a sex category is the assignment given based on the genitalia at birth. While it may not be necessary to individuals, it is needed by society in general because it is one of the major ways humans organize themselves. If you think about it, even if men and women are doing the exact same thing in a work place they are often either spatially segregated to maintain gender separation or the tasks are given different names such as "executive secretary" versus "administrative assistant". Differences between genders isn't actually necessary, as long as differences can be perceived. So, while masculinity and femininity are not really necessary to men and women respectively, it is what society expects.

[Spinning_fiend]

Originally Posted by celestial_rain

well, I read an article a while ago called "'Night to His Day':The Social Construction of Gender" for a class of mine. While much of what it said I already thought, it helped put it into words for me. Gender is a construction of society through name, dress, and the use of other gender markers whereas a sex category is the assignment given based on the genitalia at birth. While it may not be necessary to individuals, it is needed by society in general because it is one of the major ways humans organize themselves. If you think about it, even if men and women are doing the exact same thing in a work place they are often either spatially segregated to maintain gender separation or the tasks are given different names such as "executive secretary" versus "administrative assistant". Differences between genders isn't actually necessary, as long as differences can be perceived. So, while masculinity and femininity are not really necessary to men and women respectively, it is what society expects.

Do you think that over time, people evolve out of these categories when/if that need isn't necessary anymore? I can see how a new society with no order would begin to categorize (just for the sake of order), but over time, when a society has developed enough it seems that then the categories break. Not so much with the need to be something else, but the ability, or opportunity, to be something else (liberation).

But then, why is it that we must identify ourselves in these constructs? If it's necessary for organization, but not actually necessary to men and women, then why or is it required?

[celestial_rain]

I think it is has more to do with the comfort of the majority than complete necessity now. For the most part, girls are raised to act one way and boys are raised to act a different way. What if a child was raised with no gender constructs at all? I don't think they would fit the norms of what is "proper" for their gender. So, while we may not view masculinity and feminity as necessary it is still the norm, and will probably stay that way for a very long time because of how children are raised. But yes, there are some of us that stray from that norm, and while I think thats ok for us, it may make others uncomfortable.