Hello My name is Keith

[K-Dog]

It is an interesting story which brought me to the site. I had come to the same basic conclusions as soulforce on my own, and was looking up how many times the Bible actually mentions homosexuality and found a link to this site. It was interesting to me there are others who had the same conclusion.

I am actually a heterosexual, which may make me a rarity on this site. I belong to the Assemblies of God denomination, and am considering going to college to complete my degree in pastoral studies to get ordained. However, I do not agree with how the church has treated gays all of my life.

The first problem I have is that the church is charged to preach the gospel in all the lands and in all tongues across the planet. What is the gospel? That Jesus Christ loves you, and he died for your sins. The gospel doesn't say he died for heterosexuals or homosexuals, just that he died for all mankind.

The second problem is that for every passage that the church uses to condemn homosexuals, there are at least ten passages ordering them not to. "First remove the plank from your own eye so you can see clearly." Or, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Or, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." To name a few.

My biggest problem is this, though: any discussion on the sinfulness of homosexuality comes down to one of two options. Either homosexuality is a sin and it is therefore covered by the blood of Jesus, or it isn't a sin and homosexuals have committed other sins (as have all people) and need the blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of those. Either way, the conclusion is that forgiveness for homosexuals is both available and necessary.

[scott snedeker]

Touchstones of the Human heart: Unconditional love, unlimited capacity for compassion, and Non violence must be skillfully reconcilied with any precept of spiritual teaching. Any teaching based on precept that is in conflict with these Touchstones leads away from a Path with Heart.

Carlos Costeneda: "Ask yourself does your path have a heart? If it does, then it is worthwhile. If it doesn't, then it is of no value."

I am Buddhist by practice and follow the eight-fold path of the Dharma. Like learning to play a musical instrument, the Touchstones of the Human heart allow me to recognize sound spiritual teaching that ends violence with compassion from that which is unsound, merely gratifying the spiritual teacher with surrogated violence (like oppression of capacity for same gender intimacy)

Violence ends only with the Touchstones of the Human Heart. Christ met the most heinously violent action (slow death by the Roman punishment of crucifixion) with Compassion.

Using the symbol power of His power over violence to commit the violence of oppression, only surrogates the violence of crucifixion by the Romans with its reanimation. (The Cross)

Ignorance, pain and fear are the source of all suffering and violence. I believe Christ said "fear not" from a perspective of knowledge of this ancient wisdom- taught by Buddha 500 years previously, btw.

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by K-Dog

My biggest problem is this, though: any discussion on the sinfulness of homosexuality comes down to one of two options. Either homosexuality is a sin and it is therefore covered by the blood of Jesus, or it isn't a sin and homosexuals have committed other sins (as have all people) and need the blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of those. Either way, the conclusion is that forgiveness for homosexuals is both available and necessary.

Hi Keith. Having read your first posts, I'm inclined to believe you that your intentions are friendly. As such, I'd like to share -- in what I hope is an equally friendly way -- a few thoughts on what you've written.

Many here on the Forums are indeed Christian, however, many are not; references to the Gospels and the "blood of Christ" will have varying relevance. For some, it will be antagonistic.

Christian or not, the notion of "sin" will also be interpreted widely. For me, "sin" is that which takes us away from God the Creator. A secular humanist might view "sin" as a "wrong" causing harm to oneself or one's society. Considering that, for many here (most I would wager), their gayness/queerness/difference has actually made them more spiritual -- i.e., closer to God -- and causes no harm to themselves or society, the idea that it would be "sinful" or "wrong" makes no sense whatsoever.

Your quoted text above seems to want to hedge its bet on the sinfulness question by arguing that "either way" the "sinner" is offered forgiveness through Christ. I would argue that this is a false dichotomy that presupposes much and ultimately dances around the issue.

[BenL]

Originally Posted by K-Dog

My biggest problem is this, though: any discussion on the sinfulness of homosexuality comes down to one of two options. Either homosexuality is a sin and it is therefore covered by the blood of Jesus, or it isn't a sin and homosexuals have committed other sins (as have all people) and need the blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of those. Either way, the conclusion is that forgiveness for homosexuals is both available and necessary.

Welcome, Keith, and thanks for your support.

What Scotty/Ash and dsdrane have offered is that there are many, many different ways of expressing the concepts you have laid out in the excerpt quoted above.

My response would be that we're all flawed in some way. The question is whether being gay (homosexuality is such a clinical word) is wrong in itself. Many of us who identify as gay have realized that being gay is part of our creation, that our creator intended us to be the way we are. What we need to choose is how we use the gift of our sexuality for the betterment of ourselves, our sexual partners and the larger community. As Scotty said so eloquently, Love should be the guiding principle. How you see or believe this love expresses itself is an individual matter. That you give it primacy in your life is the essential.

[K-Dog]

The idea of sinfulness was intended to be more broad scope than it must have come across. I was trying to express that the church views homosexuality as sin, and gay people do not. And whether the church is on the right side or the gays are, it doesn't matter becuase the church claims to follow the teachings of christ, and according to his teachings either it is a sin, and he will forgive or it isn't a sin and you have committed others and need forgiveness for those. The point I guess I am trying to make is it doesn't matter whether being gay is a sin or not, because the church is wrong all the way in doing "gay bashing." There is no greater sin in any faith than anger, hatred and bigotry.

I hope this helps clear up my point, or at the very least doesn't make it worse.

[Gennee]

Welcome to the forum, Keith.

Gennee

[BenL]

Originally Posted by K-Dog

The point I guess I am trying to make is it doesn't matter whether being gay is a sin or not, because the church is wrong all the way in doing "gay bashing." There is no greater sin in any faith than anger, hatred and bigotry.

I couldn't agree with you more, Keith. Thanks for taking the time to read and to clarify your thoughts. That's what these forums are all about.

[dsdrane]

And don't get me wrong...I'm glad you're here. We need all the allies we can get. That said, I respectfully encourage you to learn more.

Originally Posted by K-Dog

I was trying to express that the church views homosexuality as sin, and gay people do not. And whether the church is on the right side or the gays are, it doesn't matter becuase the church claims to follow the teachings of christ, and according to his teachings either it is a sin, and he will forgive or it isn't a sin and you have committed others and need forgiveness for those. The point I guess I am trying to make is it doesn't matter whether being gay is a sin or not, because the church is wrong all the way in doing "gay bashing."

Firstly [and, I might add: thank God], "the church" is not a monolithic entity. Many denominations have no problem reconciling the teachings of Christ with either growing or complete acceptance of homosexuality. They may be in the minority, but they are there. Moreover, this acceptance is actually based upon -- rather than runs counter to -- the teachings of Christ.

Secondly, it absolutely matters -- to people on both sides of the debate -- whether being gay is a sin. It may not matter to God, but it matters to a) homophobes because it provides a theological blessing to anything from exclusion to bashing, and b) it matters to gay people because no one should have to seek forgiveness for something that requires none. This goes to someone's essence of how they view themselves...what they see as positive or negative about themselves. When I confess my sins at church each Sunday, I know in my heart that being gay is not on the list. I'm one of the lucky ones. There are others who still wonder and worry and, frankly, being told that "even if it is a sin, don't worry; you'll be forgiven" doesn't cut it when it comes to day-to-day life in the here-and-now.

Granted, there are others here for whom the idea of "sin" is irrelevant -- either because of a different faith system or because of the lack of one. This doesn't mean, of course, that they don't have their own struggles. It just means that they don't have to navigate through the choppy waters of Christian dogma and how that dogma relates directly to them as gay Christians.

As I alluded to before, I don't think it's enough to defer a judgment of sinfulness to God. It leaves people dangling...and lets others off the hook. One should state clearly how they feel. A "yes" or "no" is preferable, but I also believe "I don't know" is a perfectly reasonable response. At the very least, it lets people know where they stand.

Originally Posted by K-Dog

There is no greater sin in any faith than anger, hatred and bigotry.

On this I agree with you wholeheartedly!

[scott snedeker]

Also referred to as Conscious Intention and Concious Effort which are the second and sixth parts of the eight-fold path of the Dharma.


By posting here K-dog you are exploring ways to replace Ingnorance with Knowledge. This evaporates fear and prejudice. By doing so within you start a seed of ending violence of oppression in those around you. This touches others in a chain. By growing peace within and focussing so as to cultivate compassion you start a colony.

I also sense that you sre exploring the compassion that you learned more of your own realization than from the precepts taught by spiritual leaders. This must be an exploration full of wonder and discovery.

Right awareness (Seventh part of the Dharma) is the sesnsing of how your intention and effort benefit you spiritually. Both pradigms refer to this as enlightenment.

Without even realizing it you are following the Dharma by following wisdom behind the lettering of the accounts of Christ's teachings.

May you be free of fear and pain. May you be safe from inner and outer danger.......is the begining of the lovingkindness meditation

You are making the world around you a kinder place.

[K-Dog]

Again, I see there is some room for more clarification. When I say it doesn't matter whether it is a sin or not, I am referring to the debate itself. In Christianity, God speaks to your heart. It is only there that one can know the difference between sin and sanctified. Where it doesn't matter is in the debate because the debate could only reach one of those two conclusions.

Those people who use theology to justify their attitudes, and worse their actions, will be judged harshly by God one day. They have violated God's command to not use the lord's name in vain. And in so doing they have worked against God's plan to include someone in his kingdom. They will not be thanked for that.

Jesus said blessed be the peacemakers for their's is the kingdom of heaven. He dined with tax collectors and sinners. And the only people he really ever got in arguments with were the religious leaders of his day. Now 2000 years later, the people are just turning against his teachings and trying to control his kingdom for their own self interests.

My belief is this about the sinfulness of homosexuality. I believe it can be a sin for me, and not for you. The reason is this, throughout the gospels Jesus spoke about God as the Father. Anyone who is a father or had a father knows that although a father may love all his children the same, he doesn't treat them all the same. In fact, a perfect father will give perfect rules for each child to follow and raise them to be their personal best. If God wants you to be gay, and you fight your whole life to be straight, then you are going against God's wishes and therefore sinning. On an individual level, I can't say whether that is true for one person or another or not because I'm not God.

Again, I hope this makes my thoughts clearer to understand. My cat helped me type this incidentally.

[tdogg]

Tdogg here. Nice to meet you.

I don't believe being gay is a sin, most gay people don't and neither do a good number of straight Christians. I used to be a Christian, now, while I hold on to some of my faith beliefs, I have accumulated others. Sadly, many of so-called Christians I know don't act very Christ-like, and organized religion on the whole doesn't either. So I have distanced myself from organized religion - Christian or otherwise - as a whole. Although now and then I'm not entirely against attending an affirming & welcoming church.

I also don't believe God is gender exclusive - I tend to think of God as beyond gender or even better, all-gender. It is interesting (and a little self-serving, no?) that males, that largely wrote the original scriptures that aren't all that similar to what we call the Bible today, 'created' an image of God as a male, human-like, father figure. Used even now to keep women in their place so to speak. If we replace that with a gender neutral or all-gender figure, then we are all truly 'created' equal.

If one believes in sin, then one most likely believes in hell, which is an interesting concept as well. When I am speaking with religious people that believe in the concept of hell, I usually like to ask them a question. What would it take for their child (or other loved one) to do, that they would willingly toss them into what their mind perceives is hell. The answer has always been 'nothing, I would never do that!' To which I reply, then why would you worship a God that is willing to do just that? To which there is only silence.

Ok, enough rambling. Welcome and hope you stay around and read through the posts, and share some more.

[K-Dog]

Originally Posted by tdogg

If one believes in sin, then one most likely believes in hell, which is an interesting concept as well. When I am speaking with religious people that believe in the concept of hell, I usually like to ask them a question. What would it take for their child (or other loved one) to do, that they would willingly toss them into what their mind perceives is hell. The answer has always been 'nothing, I would never do that!' To which I reply, then why would you worship a God that is willing to do just that? To which there is only silence.

Well granted the ideas of Christianity are based in large part on decisions made by men over a thousand years ago, right down to the inclusion or exclusion of certain books from the bible. There is a book called the Revelation of Peter which was very nearly included in the bible but replaced in favor of the Revelation of John the Divine instead. In the Revelation of Peter, Jesus is asked the question how can he let any human go to hell, and his answer was that it was only for a certain period of time. In that context, sending people to hell for God's perspective is like putting them in a time out or sending them to their room. If you asked a parent what they would have to do in order to send their child to a time out, they would probably give you an answer like disobey me. And also don't forget that the imagery of hell HAS to be horrible. Otherwise there really isn't any reason to avoid it, even if it is only for a short time.

And you will be perhaps pleased to know also there are a few references to God in the old testament as a Mother Hen collecting her brood, and other more feminine descriptions. The masculinity of God is a cultural one rather than there being any real truth to it. By the time it was written, women in Mid East already had no standing so writing about a female god would have been poorly received at best.

[K-Dog]

Well, I think I have managed to get this thread way off topic, so I will try to get it back to where it is supposed to be. I live in Saline MI. Where are you from?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by K-Dog

Well, I think I have managed to get this thread way off topic, so I will try to get it back to where it is supposed to be. I live in Saline MI. Where are you from?

Hi Keith. Welcome to the Forum.

I live in Manhattan. A big city with a small town heart.

I went to Evangel College, an Assemblies of God school in Missouri. Or as they would say there, Missourah!

Don't know what things are like now in the AG church, but it doesn't have much room- if any- for out gay people, does it? Though I have come across several Pentecostal churches over the years that are oriented (there is a pun there!) towards gay people.

Funny how all the gay men in a church gravitate towards the choir. You find them in every church on the planet.

Some think we are the bearers of culture. And I believe there is a lot of sense in that. My experience has been that most people enjoy good music in church. In fact, it can be the primary reason why they go. Reminds me of the saying, "When you sing you pray twice."

The question of whether gay people are inherently sinful or not makes me roll my eyes. And that's not just because I am an uppity New Yawker. It's a point a view which ignores a vast amount of information. A will-full ignorance. I've seen up close how anti-intellectual Pentecostalism can be.

Kudos to you for having an open mind.

[K-Dog]

I would think that gay people are the bearers of culture because culture requires a type of sensitivity that straight people can't really attain. If you think about it, I believe it is reasonable to say that the orientation itself forces you to face certain things that make you much stronger. To be openly gay, or even to come out to friends and family takes an enormous amount of courage and inner strength as well as a certain amount of sensitivity. Those three factors work well to give you an ability to see the beautiful parts of the world and to want to add to that beauty.

This may not be true for all gay people, and I don't mean to stereotype here, but the openly gay people I have ever encountered have been like that. I have an open mind because I see friends and foes not because of what group someone is in, but if they are mean to me. I have never encountered a gay person who was mean to me. I'm sure there are gay jerks out there, but I know enough gay nice people that I would know those people are not the norm. Plus I look at each person as an individual and not as part of a group. I don't believe in any ism, I give people a chance until they prove they don't deserve one.

[drobs]

Keith,

I would recommend you read Strangers at the Gate by Mel White. It will help you better understand what it's like to be gay and christian. It was very helpful to me.

A little about myself...

I grew up a born again christian. Graduated with a BA in Psychology from Bethel College (now called Bethel University) and went to Trinity Evangelical Divinty school for a year to pursue a MDiv. I was outed at my church while grad school. I have not been there (that church) since.

I fought being gay for as long as could and finally after being outed I realized that I was free. I was free from the constant doubt, depression, suicidal thoughts, and general hate for myself. As a christian I had constantly prayed for god to take away those "evil" thoughts, fantasies, and attractions.

God never took those thoughts or attractions away.

For about a year after being outed I attended christian counseling through exodus. The group I was with met 2x a week. 1 was individual counseling, 1 was a group meeting much like an AA meeting.

What I noticed about that group (at least my local branch in Evanston IL) was that they were there as a support group for christians that struggled with being christian and gay. They didn't believe in "miraculous" healings but were there as a sounding board.

I spent a year with the group and realized I was finally happy with who I was - out and gay. I saw no point in going back into a closet of self loathing. Now that I was out I was going to stay out. I learned that god made me the way I am.

One other thing, I note that you come from a pentacostal church. I would be very careful there if I were you. One thing I don't much like about pentacostal churches is they are self centered and seem to draw closed minded people.

Some friends of mine were pentacostal. When I was outed they made it known that they could no longer asscociate with me. They are no longer my friends.

[K-Dog]

I have read many threads in the foyer posted by other straight 'christians' and I hope and pray you guys don't lump me in with them. Though I don't know everything about what I say, their views are as far from my views as two people can get.

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by K-Dog

I have read many threads in the foyer posted by other straight 'christians' and I hope and pray you guys don't lump me in with them. Though I don't know everything about what I say, their views are as far from my views as two people can get.

Friendly advice: Drop the "YOU GUYS DONT BE MEAN OKAY?" statements and people will probably be okay. "Don't take this the wrong way, but..." is a classic tip off.