Where's Satan?

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Rick336

Actually, that's exactly what it means. The only way that we know that something exists is if it is supported by empirical evidence. Evidence is how we distinguish between reality and fantasy.

If someone says that leprechauns exists, do we automatically believe them without evidence? Of course not. Even though we've seen graphics of leprechauns on cerial boxes and heard stories of leprechauns living in the forests of Ireland, our common sense tells us that leprechauns are only a childish myth because there is no evidence to support their existence.

The same goes for Satan. When a religious leader teaches that Satan is behind the growing number of openly LGBT people, he makes a claim that lacks empirical evidence to support it. Unless he can produce evidence that (1) Satan exists (2) Satan controls behavior (3) homosexuality is from Satan, then our common sense must dismiss his claims as false. To do otherwise is to be controlled by unreasoned irrational thinking and to live in a world of fantasy.

Rick

Great points... the only problem here is the question of faith.

Our tests for reality are rather interesting aren't they?

IMHO, "satan" is the personification of "evil," a way to explain/teach/etc. about things/thoughts/actions that are so bad/wrong they must be "evil." If we can't inspire and motivate the best in people through our examples and teachings, lets scare the bejeezus out of them and hope they do what we think is "right."

[RedneckDyke]

I don't think Satan is a character with a pitchfork and horns like the Dookie blue devil. I think it's more "dark side of the force". There is a good and an evil. I think evil has to do with selfishness and greed and pride and lust for money, power, attention. Voldemort he was always a little twisted, but he could have pulled it out and been a force for good. He desired the fame and the followers that having a lot of charisma and magical talent gave him. Even Dumbledore was tempted with the power that magic folk had over Muggles. It talks about it in Deathly Hallows.

[koneill08]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

Defining satan and locating him is your challenge to prove by responding to Rick's question. Rick and myself Don't believe Satan exists at all except as a belief in the minds of people but no other metaphysical fashion.

If you are unable to answer, then Rick has made his point. Satan does not exist beyond the some 1 billion odd people's ideas within their own minds.

Scott, not to start a large debate, but doesn't rick336 have as much burden of proof to show that satan doesn't exist as much as I (and other's who do believe) have to prove that he does? Is it possible to find the common ground that just like people may have different names for God, can we not have different labels or names for evil? You might not believe that it shows up in metaphysical form, but I on the other hand do. Not to use maybe a bad analogy, but if you've seen the new movie Precious with Mo'nique in it and the horrendous evil that girl had to live with, I believe evil does show up in metaphysical form. Just as it showed up in that poor girl's father and mother. It might be a moot point. But can we agree that evil is in the world? Evil in the sense that we treat other's and their opinions like crap? We (people in general) are bigots, we are discrimating against people who don't hold opinions just like us, we view others in the class system and we treat them accordingly. Can we at least agree on that even if I call the source of it satan and you don't?

And as far as 1 billion ODD? people? Are you saying that anyone who believes differently about this topic is "odd?" Don't we all get enough of being labeled? Sorry, but that offended me slightly. Just because I believe in a satan like entity who encompasses all evil, just as God for me encompasses all love and good, doesn't mean I'm odd. It just means I hold a different opinion than some others and it is no less valid.

[BrianB]

Originally Posted by antiochian

that Satan lives in Iowa. Ever since same-sex marriage was legalized there, he's been dancing gleefully through the cornfields. Although he does go south for the winter, as it's colder than hell there at the moment.

(If you are so inclined, check out Stephen Lynch's song "Beelz" on youtube. Very irreverent, but funny! I know for a fact you'd like it, Rick!)

Proof of a cold day in...

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by koneill08

Scott, not to start a large debate, but doesn't rick336 have as much burden of proof to show that satan doesn't exist as much as I (and other's who do believe) have to prove that he does?

I know you directed this question to Scott but I'd like to contribute here.

The burden of proof is on the ones making the claim.

For example: What if your neighbor made the claim that a fifty pound diamond is buried in his backyard. Unless you can prove that there is no fifty pound diamond buried in his backyard does that mean that the diamond is actually there?

What if I claimed aliens were secretly living among us? Would that mean that aliens are actually living among us until somebody proves that they aren't?

People say Satan exists. Does this mean that unless I can prove that he doesn't exist that he does indeed exist?

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

So my question remains. If Satan exists, where is he?


Rick

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by Rick336

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

So my question remains. If Satan exists, where is he?


Rick

Okay fine. SHE is on weeknights at 8p EDT. The lighting macro for her show is 666. The lighting directors came up with that with no prompting. Studio H has been renamed Studio Hell. She has minions and everything. Better watch your ass.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by bnmoore

Okay fine. SHE is on weeknights at 8p EDT. The lighting macro for her show is 666. The lighting directors came up with that with no prompting. Studio H has been renamed Studio Hell. She has minions and everything. Better watch your ass.

I aint afraid of no minions.


Rick

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by koneill08

Scott, not to start a large debate, but doesn't rick336 have as much burden of proof to show that satan doesn't exist as much as I (and other's who do believe) have to prove that he does? Is it possible to find the common ground that just like people may have different names for God, can we not have different labels or names for evil? You might not believe that it shows up in metaphysical form, but I on the other hand do. Not to use maybe a bad analogy, but if you've seen the new movie Precious with Mo'nique in it and the horrendous evil that girl had to live with, I believe evil does show up in metaphysical form. Just as it showed up in that poor girl's father and mother. It might be a moot point. But can we agree that evil is in the world? Evil in the sense that we treat other's and their opinions like crap? We (people in general) are bigots, we are discrimating against people who don't hold opinions just like us, we view others in the class system and we treat them accordingly. Can we at least agree on that even if I call the source of it satan and you don't?

And as far as 1 billion ODD? people? Are you saying that anyone who believes differently about this topic is "odd?" Don't we all get enough of being labeled? Sorry, but that offended me slightly. Just because I believe in a satan like entity who encompasses all evil, just as God for me encompasses all love and good, doesn't mean I'm odd. It just means I hold a different opinion than some others and it is no less valid.

Sorry about the offense received.

"1 billion odd" is an expression meaning "in the ball park" of 1 billion in number (1/6 of the world human population) and not 1 billion folk who are bizarre.

The metaphysical characteristics of Satan would be a good start to answer Rick's question. Again I feel that this is an intellectual exercise.

Rick and I differ on the belief of whether plants have "awareness" I am convinced that they do. by their response to environmental conditions.

I cannot characterize this awareness unless I have the experience of being a plant. So I can't definethe awareness except by appearance and observation from my human perception.

What Rick is demonstrating is the contrast between contemporary thinking and metaphysics of things like (Galaxies and nuclear theory) and ancient thinking and metaphysicis like (Demons, Djini's and angels)

I believe that you would have to abandon or at least suspend contemporary thinking to believe in Satan or a Djini or an Angel

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

I believe that you would have to abandon or at least suspend contemporary thinking to believe in Satan or a Djini or an Angel

There is something called the 'suspension of disbelief'. If a story is well-told, be it in a movie or a play, one believes the events unfolding as being 'real', even though, objectively speaking, it is nothing more than play acting.

Whether angels and demons (and God) are objectively real or not, I think one thing is certain: human beings like to hear and tell a good story. And often, we are moved by the universal truth within a story. Why? Because we see something of ourselves in it.

As Shakespeare said: "All the world's a stage".

[Rick336]

For me, to believe in and be fearful of something with no reliable evidence of it's existence outside a few verses in an ancient text is counter productive to a happy life. Not only does the belief serve no purpose but it can create needless fear and anxiety.

Rick

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by Daniel

There is something called the 'suspension of disbelief'. If a story is well-told, be it in a movie or a play, one believes the events unfolding as being 'real', even though, objectively speaking, it is nothing more than play acting.

Whether angels and demons (and God) are objectively real or not, I think one thing is certain: human beings like to hear and tell a good story. And often, we are moved by the universal truth within a story. Why? Because we see something of ourselves in it.

As Shakespeare said: "All the world's a stage".

An excellent point. By seeing ourselves in it we are imbuing the perception of our metaphysical world with our own identity.

OR

We become God

If we see ourselves as compassionate, loving and reasonable, our God becomes compassionate, loving and reasonable. We can suspend modern thinking if it serves us with concepts like what my Heart Brother, Adrain told me Years ago:

"Scotty, when you are doing the right thing, the universe conspires to help you."

If we see ourselves as flawed sinful and deserving of punishment and repentance because some church leader taught us this when we were vulnerable to influence, Then our God, our Satan, our universe becomes wrathful evil and suffocating

Originally Posted by Rick336

For me, to believe in and be fearful of something with no reliable evidence of it's existence outside a few verses in an ancient text is counter productive to a happy life. Not only does the belief serve no purpose but it can create needless fear and anxiety.

Rick

...and this echos the lesson in Jack Kornfield's "A Path with Heart"

"If a path has Heart and Brings you awareness, cultivates confidence allows you to see feel and let in the joy and life around you , then it is worthwhile and good.

If it does not, and worse if it cause suffering, ....it is of no use or value and should be abandoned and avoided as this is poison."

[krobbyzw]

Originally Posted by Rick336

To go back to my original question; if Satan exists, where is he?

Rick

Hi Rick, at the risk of giving you a 'happy-clappy, ceiling scratching, Bible thumping' explanation, the answer is in 1 Peter, 5:8, that he is 'walking about.' I know you cannot measure, test, weigh or examine that evidence, except as others have posted that we can all see the effects of his evil in the world today.

Enjoy your weekend!

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by krobbyzw

Hi Rick, at the risk of giving you a 'happy-clappy, ceiling scratching, Bible thumping' explanation, the answer is in 1 Peter, 5:8, that he is 'walking about.' I know you cannot measure, test, weigh or examine that evidence, except as others have posted that we can all see the effects of his evil in the world today.

Enjoy your weekend!

Sorry, I don't personally believe in Satan. Within each of us is both good and evil and every day we can choose to do good, understanding that anything negative we do comes back to us ultimately. We create our own heaven and our own hell with our belief systems that so often keep us imprisoned. I am a Christian, but at the same time I recognize the wisdom of other spiritual journeys. One book I've found extremely helpful is the book, "The Four Agreements." It will help you understand your own role in the struggles of life.

Kara

[krobbyzw]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

Sorry, I don't personally believe in Satan.

Kara

Hi Kara, thanks for your reply.
You say you are a Christian and do not believe in Satan,
The written foundation of Christianity is the Bible.
The Bible states that Jesus Christ was tempted by Satan after fasting in the wilderness, and that Peter referred to him before Ananias and Sapphira dropped
dead for testing the Holy Spirit.
I wanted to ask you whether you feel Jesus Himself or one of the New Testament writers were mistaken when they referred to the devil?
Or perhaps there is another alternative that I have not considered?