Theocracy: The Threat is Real!

[revtj]

Friends, I am posting this link to a website discussing the ideas of R. J. Rushdoony and theocracy. He was immensely popular when I was a student at Covenant College 1977-80 and so-named Reconstructionist Christianity has exploded since then. While the pseudo-rationalism makes it appealing to a lot of people, it's pretty transparent to the rest of us: these people want the blood of their enemies, and their enemies are many.

I meet & talk to a lot of people who don't think theocracy poses any real threat to American democracy. Please feel free to share this link with anyone you know.

Interested in your responses...

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/5/19/132922/991

[Daniel]

Revtj,

Thanks for the link.

Your post reminded me of when I was in school at Evangel ('77-'81) and Ronald Reagan was elected. There was the feeling then that God himself was being sent to Washington and the country was now on the way to being Christianized. It wasn't merely the defeat of Democracts that was the issue. Curiously, this was at the same time when Pat Robertson, the Bakkers, and others were becoming a cultural phenomina- preaching that the sure sign of God's blessings had everything to do with material abundance. I believe this powerful nexus of religion and money has had serious consequences. As I see it, those preaching the salvation of Theocracy simply want to cash in.

[Zerbie]

These people scare/used to scare, the crap outta me. What's so frightening is that there have been maneuvres made to get into a position where these theocratic types have institutional power. Like the 'We the People Act." My memory is hazy & I might describe it inaccurately, so if ya don't know it, just google. Basically it's part of seizing doctrinal control over the judicial system.

Sometimes I have nightmares that these folks might get into power & do the devil knows what. When I express that concern, hubby trots out his own fave argument which is that the corporate right wing is going to smack the theocrats right outta the wading pool as soon as they can afford to do so. Sorta like what Daniel said, and going one further, it's the money that's really going to win the power. Big business, not the theocrats.

[Lydia]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Sometimes I have nightmares that these folks might get into power & do the devil knows what.

They might set up another Republic of Gilead.

[revtj]

Daniel, me too! I was a product of the Reagan Revolution. I voted for Carter because (in part) he was a born-again christian. I always thought Reagan was a puppet. I despised him the whole time he was in office (and for good reason!) Yet, I told a friend of mine the other night, wish I could dig him up & put him back in DC! Never, never in a million years did I ever think it could be worse than Reagan. Even the clothes in fashion with Bush make me wanna puke; Reagan made a change for 'nice' fashion!

Zerbie, a lot of people have used the same argument with me that your hubby is using. I want to believe it's true but I keep thinking what if things turn out differently for THEM (i.e. the money-power whores using the religious Reich) the way things have turned out differently for all the rest of us?

Lydia, now I'm gonna rent that movie. Sounds like my idea of a horror flick.

If it weren't for a prayer life & 2 cats, I'd be upset over these creeps trying to ruin democracy!

[awediot]

I wouldn't worry all that much about Christians taking over. Backlash and liberal revolution are in the air and seeping into the blood of even traditional conservatives. The blasphemous credit the Bush juggernaut gives to his god in the name of Christ to justify his war and its inhumane fallout, have dealt simple Christians a fatal blow. This, today, will be seen as their heyday and they will never be forgiven for it. The anger, fear, resolve and hope you feel were placed there intentionally to destroy Christianity, nationalism and American patriotism in particular, as they are the last substantial roadblocks to Globalism... So don't fear, you are guaranteed to win... Even their own Prophecy describes its adherents demise. The world is destined to be yours...

[NonLemming]

Originally Posted by awediot

I wouldn't worry all that much about Christians taking over. Backlash and liberal revolution are in the air and seeping into the blood of even traditional conservatives. The blasphemous credit the Bush juggernaut gives to his god in the name of Christ to justify his war and its inhumane fallout, have dealt simple Christians a fatal blow. This, today, will be seen as their heyday and they will never be forgiven for it. The anger, fear, resolve and hope you feel were placed there intentionally to destroy Christianity, nationalism and American patriotism in particular, as they are the last substantial roadblocks to Globalism... So don't fear, you are guaranteed to win... Even their own Prophecy describes its adherents demise. The world is destined to be yours...

And thank God for that. The religious knuckleheads "have" given religion a bad name, even though most free thinkers acknowledge that there are many sensible religious people around. I love learning about the many faiths I don't belong to, and only really resent them when they step on the human
rights of others who think differently. As a very intelligent slogan goes, "Your religion stops where my rights begin." So the many faiths of the world need to rein in their zealots, tell them they are giving their faith a bad name, and then tend to their gardens and let others likewise tend to theirs.

[revtj]

Visibility is not acceptance. We are not winning anything, even if, as you say, the right is losing. The laws are still stacked against us and they are writing new ones to pass even as I type.

Assimilation will not protect anyone. To simply politely demand to have what they have is a shortsighted goal. To envy wealth, power, money and prestige is all too American, but achieving these things has never eliminated the slightest bit of prejudice, bigotry, intolerance, or malevolent motives against others. It can't do that: material things and social status are elusive and come with no guarantees for anything, least of all life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

To ignore the religious Reich because you have a theory that they will fail is equally shortsighted and it will not protect you or anyone else. It sounds more like an excuse to do nothing.

To assume you will always have the privilege you have now, because it is only fair and just that you have it, is to totally misunderstand the religious Reich and what they want. If you read the post by the link, they want us dead because God said so. They can lose and still achieve that goal.

<KERSPLASH! COLD WATER ON YOUR LUKEWARM PASSION<

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by awediot

The world is destined to be yours...

Aren't you coming with?
----------
(I posted part of this at Ex-Gay Watch in response to a comment, just in case you happen upon it. It’s more appropriate in this thread though.)

The problem with the theocratic right is that their ultimate “truth” is based on exclusivity, which is exclusively subjective. ‘My religion is the only correct one,’ ‘my interpretation of my religion is the only correct one,’ etc. It shows up best in the creationism / evolution “debate.”

The truth of science, logic, as in methodological standards or ‘methods of logic,’ is universal and is meant to be applicable by and to everyone. Once the assumption of creation can be seen as being on equal footing with evolution, biology etc., then you’re one significant step closer to undermining the very need for logic in the discovery of truth.

Since they don’t have any truth to dis-cover because they already have it all in the inerrant Bible, they must establish truth in order to "prove" it. Their concept of truth itself is inherently flawed because you could never universally prove exclusivity. Any “ultimate” or “only” truth that is based on exclusivity would by definition exclude at least some from knowing it.

The only way they can prove it is by forcing the outside world around them to conform to their delusions. Once they see everything that they think is "wrong" made illegal, they can say “see, I have been proven right, my outside world reflects what I knew to be true.”

The problem is, even if they were to establish a theocracy, it’s going to be the most insanely radical minority among even them making and enforcing those laws. (As in those who want to bring back public stonings. -I believe Rushdoony ascribes to this.)

That’s why they use junk science, especially when it comes to the gay/ex-gay issue, so as to appear legitimate. “No it’s not just because the Bible says so, I have scientific studies and statistics to back up my claims (even though I don’t believe in science).”

The ends justifies the means is their mantra.

The Intelligent Design “debate” is the most striking example of their tactics and indicative of their motives. If you can get people to debate whether to teach something as science before it’s even been determined to be science, you’ve already redefined intelligence.

I agree with awediot, I don’t think it’ll happen, but they ain’t goin’ down without a fight.

Now had they started this effort with the ID vs evolution “debate,” (before ERA, abortion, gay rights etc.), then we’d probably be screwed.

I think it’s rather telling that they didn’t though, or at least didn't start with it sooner... Intelligence is the ability to recognize the ORDER of importance.

[awediot]

revtj,
You vastly underestimate what I want, what I do to achieve it and who I think can realistically give it to me. I have always been amazed at the struggle to be accepted by a society that is sick anyway. Big gain that is. At best we will be invited aboard a sinking ship... My focus is upon repairing it so there's something left to climb back on... In all honesty the gay focus is a bit narrow for me.
My theoretical predictions are based on logical observation, growing mindsets and historical patterns that repeat, not assumption, faith or way to rationalize my laziness. The religious Reich are being exaggerated as a distracting enemy that most in this country take as a joke. It is this view that will defeat them, that is also doing so as we speak. Not us.
My passion for justice is toasty and water resistant enough. It is just not always the same as yours.

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by NonLemming

As a very intelligent slogan goes, "Your religion stops where my rights begin."

May our karma run over their dogma

[suzer1013]

I'm with RevTJ on this one. While part of me would like to believe these people are so extreme that they will be taken as a joke, another part of me remembers Nazi Germany, and how people who never thought Hitler could come to power were proven so thoroughly wrong. I've read some articles claiming that Dubya has ties to these people, and from what I've read, there are some of these folks (not many at this point, but enough to concern me) who are placed in fairly high positions in our government. All it will take is another 9/11 -- which is fairly certain to happen at some point -- to put their plans into effect.

I don't mean to sound paranoid. Some of you may think I am and dismiss my concerns. A bit of news that passed quietly in the media at the end of January was that the government has awarded a multi-million dollar contract to a Halliburton (surprise!) subsidiary to build "immigrant detention camps." The "reasoning" for this was "in case there is a large influx of immigrants" for some reason. Hmmmmm. When pressed, officials also said that such "camps" might be used in the event of a national emergency to house people -- like a Hurricane Katrina scenario. Hmmmmm. It doesn't take much for me to equate "immigrant detention camps" with "concentration camp." Call me crazy, but I think this is scary.

The closing of military bases also concerned me, as they would make perfect "detention camps" given the right political climate.

I know, I know -- it all sounds far fetched. But I don't discount that Nazi Germany could happen again. Elect (or fix the voting machines for) the wrong leader, and the Christian Dominionists will have the dominos lined up to fall in just the pattern they want them to.

I could go on and on, but I won't bore you with my conspiracy theories. I don't want to be paranoid about this stuff, but I also don't want to overlook the signs that could lead our country down a dangerous path, either.

Susan

[revtj]

I have to agree with Susan and I know that all reading this thread are equally concerned about achieving the same goal of equality under the law and equal human rights for all people.

I totally understand why some feel the religious Reich are a joke, being used, and will ultimately fail.

But Suzer hits it right on that the whole system is in jeopardy right now because no one is in control (I think it's very apt to call it an intelligence failure!)

One more natural disaster or terrorist attack and we would be distracted and possibly economically drowning. It wouldn't matter if Hillary was president when it happens. The existing laws already on the books set us up to be the scapegoats along with immigrants and probably a few others.

My point is that without equality under the law we are vulnerable, more vulnerable than privileged groups. With the entire nation in such a state of vulnerability, we cannot afford to dismiss fringe lunatics who think God hates gays and they should be executed.

If I'm wrong, only better results will be seen. But if I'm correct then I have to say "WAKE UP!" to all my beloved brothers & sisters who think this is just a little phase America is going through and it's going to be over soon. Anne Frank thought exactly the same thing about Nazism.

So I write this in peace, out of love, in expectation of oppressed people coming together -- not allowing them to divide us & conquer -- to speak out and take the religious Reich's threat seriously.

[keltic63]

OK, I'll try to keep from getting all artsy on you, but a few days ago I pm'd this to a friend; art imitates life and all that. This thread reminds me once again that we need to have a scapegoat, and the following lyrics talk about it nicely.

No, of course what really matters
Is the blame,
Somebody to blame.
Fine, if that's the thing you enjoy,
Placing the blame,
If that's the aim,
Give me the blame-


and goes on to say:

You're so nice.
You're not good,
You're not bad,
You're just nice.
I'm not good,
I'm not nice,
I'm just right.
I'm the Witch.
You're the world.

I'm the hitch.
I'm what no one believes,
I'm the Witch.
You're all liars and theives,
Like his father,
Like his son will be, too-
Oh, why bother?
You'll just do what you do.


Let's face it, they're gearing up for a presidential election. Someone has to take the blame for all the problems. Homosexuals and immigrants make good scapegoats.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by suzer1013

I could go on and on, but I won't bore you with my conspiracy theories. I don't want to be paranoid about this stuff, but I also don't want to overlook the signs that could lead our country down a dangerous path, either.

Attributed to Richard Nixon:

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

Originally Posted by suzer1013

I'm with RevTJI've read some articles claiming that Dubya has ties to these people, and from what I've read, there are some of these folks (not many at this point, but enough to concern me) who are placed in fairly high positions in our government.

A bit of news that passed quietly in the media at the end of January was that the government has awarded a multi-million dollar contract to a Halliburton (surprise!) subsidiary to build "immigrant detention camps."

Susan- could you point out where you found this info?

[revtj]

Keltic!

It's Sondheim! From "Into the Woods," which is like a piece of divine revelation that needs to be added to the canon to me!

The witch's role was played by Bernadette Peters on B'way and that's the recording I have.

I love so much from that show!!!

And the ending : "...And happy ever after...I wish!"

TJ

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by revtj

Keltic!

It's Sondheim! From "Into the Woods," which is like a piece of divine revelation that needs to be added to the canon to me!

The witch's role was played by Bernadette Peters on B'way and that's the recording I have.

I love so much from that show!!!

And the ending : "...And happy ever after...I wish!"

TJ

yes, it's one of my favorites! careful the tale you tell, that is the spell...

there is much to be learned from that show.

[suzer1013]

Daniel...

Forgive a quick posting. It's a busy day at work, and my partner and I are getting ready to go away for a long weekend, so I can't expound too much right now. I'm certainly not an expert on the subject, but I'm pasting a bunch of links below that discuss the subjects at hand. I gathered these just from a quick Google search. There's certainly more info. out there than what is presented here. To be sure, some of these websites are more biased than others. I try to take everything with a grain of salt, but I also believe there is a basis in truth for the concerns about Christian Nationalism/Dominionism.

I think it was on Salon.com where I read about some of the folks in government who have Dominionist ties. The thing is, these folks are generally NOT going to state outright that they believe in Christian Nationalism, but they often are funded by these extremist groups and their agenda is often kept cloaked. One good example is the former Judge Roy Moore, the Alabama judge whose crusade is is now to get the Ten Commandments in our courthouses. While it's easy to dismiss Moore as a fringe element, he was a judge in our court system, and he's now got a following. And, of course, there's Tom DeLay, who has been linked with Christian Nationalism, and I think there's questions about John Ashcroft, too.

Anyway, again -- I'm no expert. But what I've read gives me enough of an uncomfortable feeling to be concerned about these folks. Unfortunately, they exert their influence in our government -- through lobbying, running for congressional seats (even if they don't get elected, they often get their message out there), funding the campaigns of the most conservative candidates. Their influence may seem minor right now, and I sure hope it stays that way. I'd love to live my life out and be proved wrong about my paranoia regarding this. At times, these folks are laughable, but I'd also hate to ignore them and have them laughing us all the way to the "immigrant detention camps."

I found out about the immigrant detention camps in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, of all places, and there's more commentary you can find if you Google it.


http://buzzflash.com/farrell/06/02/far06003.html

http://www.blogfordemocracy.org/arch...ment_camp.html

http://www.peacenowar.net/newpeace/i...id=57&Itemid=1

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0418-27.htm



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michel...a_b_20989.html

http://www.theocracywatch.org/

http://www.theocracywatch.org/gov_tom_delay.htm

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feat...under_god.html

[suzer1013]

LOVED Into The Woods, by the way. Got to see it on B'way, but not with Bernadette. I saw Phylicia Rashad, who actually did a pretty good job. I also went to school with Danielle Ferland (who played Little Red Riding Hood) when I was in drama school -- she was a year behind me, and though I didn't know her very well, she seemed very nice. I probably should have kissed up to her to try to meet Stephen Sondheim!

(ok, ok -- no snarky comments about why in the world would a lesbian need to go to drama school! I've heard 'em all! LOL! )

Susan

[awediot]

HHmmm... I'm all for paranoia and conspiracy theory these days. There is plenty of evidence that this administration did more than take advantage of an opportunity.

If you really think that Nazis and Christians share the same Demonic nature of blood lust, you are too far gone for this post to change anything and you may as well go discuss Queer as Folk. They got you where they want you and you're ahead of your time.

Christianity warns of a "wolf in sheep's clothing" government conquering the planet. This Prophecy would be a great pain in the ass for such a system. What better smokescreen than to hijack the source of the warning itself and make it appear that it was the thing itself? Dominionism is real, but it ain't coming from Christians... We were told the men who will do this are False Prophets and anti-Christs and they will wreak havoc posing as angels of light and claiming to act on God's will specifically in order to destroy Christianity... Sound familiar? Their success blazes on the horizon... Mere Christians are increasingly despised and soon will be blamed for the the very existence of negativity itself... and you worry they will win? ...I have underestimated the hatred and fear of what passes and poses for Christianity on this board, and overestimated the ability to see through it. The differentiation between Neo-Cons, fundamentals and simple believers is superficial, and the pain some of their poorly chosen words has caused is milked to the fullest...The real enemy remains well covered and we thrive and obsess on being such important targets... Now back to the musicals...

...diggin' the pissed a bit much today...