Cathy in New York

[Cathyny]

Hi everyone. I have been dealing with discrimination in my liberal, gay affirming Episcopal diocese since 1999. There is a disconnect here where parishioners and clergy tell you the church is welcoming to gay members and then we get treated like second class citizens. I have been denied membership on altar guild because I am openly gay and I was driven from a parish because I was teaching in Sunday school--this along with meetings at that parish about the gay problem where one man told me openly in front of the meeting that he fears for his children with me in Sunday school. After a few years of this nonsense, one helpful priest told me I could go to the suffragen bishop and he would help, that he had helped others. Eventually I did, and he refused to help except to offer to find me a welcoming parish. (In fact, he didn't even return my call and was evasive when I called again a few weeks later and asked why.) I saw that offer to move me as segregation and silencing and did not want it. I finally stopped going to church because I had reached a point of depression and rage.

Most of the clergy I spoke with here about my experiences denied them. I felt like my voice was taken away. My life was actually better without church. Sad, huh? I heard the diocese was going to have a new bishop, so a few months after he started, I emailed him with a detailed description of what I experienced in several parishes and his answer was guess what--to find me a welcoming parish. I tried to explain why that was not acceptable. He felt because his daughter is gay he is coming from the right place. He also felt because the diocese had just established a wonderful and highly publicized program for homeless gay boys that I should feel this was an affirming place. It is a great program, but in a diocese that has treated me and other gays like dirt, it is no more than tokenism.

I am trying to find a way to communicate effectively and make the diocesan leadership accountable enough to take me seriously and face the problems here. I need to find people locally to help me stay even and strong and to provide me with guidance if possible. If you know anyone in Soulforce or one of the other peaceful Christian gay awareness groups around here who can help, please let me know how to get in touch. I have a feeling I will be asked again to meet with the local bishop (I didn't go when he first invited me because I didn't want him to feel he was solving my issues with hugs and a smile), and I don't think I should go alone.

Last week I emailed the presiding bishop of ECUSA, and she sent me an affirming response. It was very encouraging. She said she agreed that sending someone to a safe parish was not enough of an answer and she said we would not consider this an adequate answer to an African American asking for equal dignity. She also said it is my ministry to speak about discrimination. I cannot engage in such a ministry if I have no one else to back me up because clergy and bishops have responded that my views are just my personal opinion and that I have a political, self-serving agenda by speaking up.

Added info: The diocese I am in is the Episcopal Diocese of Long Island. It comprises Queens, Brooklyn, Nassau County and Suffolk County.

Thanks.

Cathy in NY

[Gennee]

Hi Cathy and welcome to Soulforce. I don't know anything about the Episcopalian Church but I pray that you find a place AND a voice. Discrimination needs to be spoken about. You are right to stand your ground.

Gennee

[bnmoore]

I don't know that many churches are going to acknowledge they are participating in the problem even after their pews sit empty. From the amount of denial in the news they're not even looking at themselves. It does seem to be human nature to blame someone else. Many are certainly not even interested in dialog.

A person voting with their feet doesn't make them a quitter. A church's business is serving the entire community of which they are a part. Love is all inclusive.

Goodbye can be said with love and without calling anyone wrong.

[Cathyny]

Hmm, bnmoore, I am trying to understand your post. Are you saying you have left the Christian church completely? Are you saying I should leave without saying the discrimination was wrong? I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, just trying to understand what you are saying.

Thanks.

Cathy in NY

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by Cathyny

Hmm, bnmoore, I am trying to understand your post. Are you saying you have left the Christian church completely?

A lot of people that call themselves Christians might not call me one. That's okay, I don't believe them either. I attend a non-denominational, multi-faith, Spiritual Center.

Are you saying I should leave without saying the discrimination was wrong?

I got the impression you had already said that discrimination was wrong and had said it to deaf ears and closed minds and hearts.

I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, just trying to understand what you are saying.

How would you interpret Matthew 10:14? Are there any congregants that would stand with you that are happily hetero and don't consider you a trouble maker?

[BruceChris]

But I don't know how you might find them to be. Check this one out:

http://www.welcomingresources.org/usa.htm

Good luck, BruceChris

PS: Katharine Jefferts Schori can be amazing.

[Cathyny]

bnmoore, thanks for your clarifications and sharing more about yourself. You bring forth a gentle light. In answer about Matthew 10:14 I would apply it to this board. If my message does not fall on fertile ground here I will lovingly move on. I know the message is my ministry because every time I walk away from it, God gives me a little while to rest and then pointedly raises it before my eyes again, often through the life of a young person. I will move from town to town, but in my case individual to individual in the church where I was placed and my message will be received where it is received. If I do not do this, I am not answering the call. I have reason to think I am called to this so younger people will not be mentally brutalized in this local community in future years.

Cathy in NY

[BruceChris]

My church:

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1093

BC

PS: I LIKE that answer.

[Cathyny]

Bruce Chris, thanks. That is a good resource. Ironically, I see one church that is in my own diocese and another church that is in Manhattan and cancelled a program that was very popular with gay members--it was suspected by members that the rector did that to cut down the proportion of gays attending the parish. This is certainly the "disconnect" of you are welcome but not so much.

Cathy in NY

[Cathyny]

Gennee, thanks for the encouragement. Fighting discrimination is a long road. Bishop Jefferts Schori wrote to me that it is a costly ministry but necessary.

Cathy in NY

[antiochian]

My best advice is to consider moving on. There are other denominations, and ones that I'm sure would be glad to have you! You can always try and stick it out, and hope that you'll get somewhere with these people if you keep trying, but consider whether the damage to your emotional and spiritual wellbeing is worth it.

[BrianB]

I got the impression at my local episcopal church that gay people were welcome as long as they weren't too obvious about it. The older parishioners might feel threatened by gay public displays of affection, ie. holding hands, kissing. You're very welcome to worship and drop money in the plate; just keep your displays of affection private.

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by BrianB

The older parishioners might feel threatened by gay public displays of affection, ie. holding hands, kissing.

That's just how most of our parishioners say hello. No one is excluded or safe from it. If you don't want a hug and kiss you need to speak up. I haven't ever seen anyone ask for permission.

It actually used to bother me. I thought about it for a little minute and got over it. If you can't show love at church where can you show it?

[Cathyny]

Thanks everyone for your kindness here, but I am not asking for counseling about where I should go or how I should emotionally handle the situation. I am in an activity that I consider necessary and I came here to ask for activism support. I thought this was an activism organization.

Tribute to John Gish: John Gish is the leading gay rights activist in the history of the gay civil rights struggle in New Jersey. When I was a teenager, John was a teacher at my high school. He became president of the Gay Activist Alliance of New Jersey and therefore had to become public about his orientation. This was around 1972. Local papers carried stories about him frequently during my years in high school and college. When John came out and publicly announced his presidency of the alliance, the school board whisked him off to a secluded office and canceled his teaching duties. John remained in New Jersey and spent twenty years working on getting the state constitution revised to grant rights to gay citizens. He finally succeeded. John is a member of the Episcopal church and currently lives in Florida. New Jersey is today one of the best places to be gay--residents have told me that. It has some of the most proactively gay affirming Episcopal parishes in the country and was one of the first states to provide gay civil union. John didn't leave New Jersey until his work was done. His home was firebombed twice, and he still didn't leave. He was a model to me and I owe my sanity in my young adult years as an out lesbian to his public courage.

Cathy in NY

[alphie]

I do affirm what you are doing in your denomination!! Keep doing it.
As I always tell folks "God is not calling me to change churches, He's calling me to change the church."
Happy Easter!

[BruceChris]

Cathy, have you tried - http://whosoever.org/ - or - http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/

These are primarily women's sites. Good luck. I'm not much of an organizer.

BruceChris

[bnmoore]

I know myself well enough to know that if I am angry and frustrated calling something altruism has large amounts of self-deception included with the anger and frustration. If I am at peace about all sides of a disagreement then I can act. What I am looking at is what I am looking with.

[Cathyny]

Bnmoore, I am no stranger to snap decisions. Thanks for judging me.

Cathy in NY

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by Cathyny

Bnmoore, I am no stranger to snap decisions. Thanks for judging me.

Cathy in NY

Dearest Cathy: Ben wasn't judging you. He was commenting on a possibility as he has witnessed in his own life, as have I. I remember years ago, someone saying that if something makes you angry, it's because there's a part of you that believes it. My "snappy" response was the VietNam war made me angry, & I sure as hell didn't believe there was anything justified in that war.

But now, I find that for the most part, those things that make me angry are about pushing my own buttons, whatever they might be. I'll give you a "for-instance," that I recently dealt with. I'm part of a ministry at my parish called, "His Hands & Feet." One of our parishoners is very needy, emotionally and very negative as well.

I found it almost impossible to talk with her without getting angry. So I started praying and asking myself, what buttons did she push. I realized that I am, what I'm now calling, a "recovering pessimist." I can go into a negative spiral and lose myself at times. So being around negativity, "pushed my buttons." I called the woman and apologized and explained this to her, and let her know that just as an alcoholic need to stay away from alcohol, I needed to stay away from negatism, and so, when the conversation (which more often than not was a monologue on her part) went in that direction, I would have to get off the phone. For almost a dozen calls that I made to her during Lent, that really worked for me. But I did lose my temper once again; fortunately it was this last week of Lent, and my commitment to calling her was only for Lent.

She's still a difficult person for most people to deal with. But some of the "charge" that she had for me, has been dimished.

I have known Ben (from forum postings) for several years now and I can assure you, I can't recall ever seeing him respond in a judgmental way.

Kara

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

I have known Ben (from forum postings) for several years now and I can assure you, I can't recall ever seeing him respond in a judgmental way.
Kara

This part of the class I'm taking right now is on Debbie Ford's "The Dark Side of the Light Chasers". At the moment we're talking about projection. I have a lot of owning up and embracing I have to do.

Although I don't really miss him that much I feel partly responsible for Dean's absence. I think I did respond judgmentally. A lot of those qualities are quite familiar and there to be recognized.

Cathy if you're reading this I volunteer to come lay palm fronds at your feet.