Seeds of Satan's Lies in My Brain?! o.O

[Snuffy]

I am a high school freshman girl who has many friends who are gay, lesbian, or bisexual, and believe it is a possibility that I, myself, may
be lesbian or bisexual. Recently I discussed with one of my youth leaders
whether or not my church believes it is a sin to be gay, and she said that
it was. There was a long conversation with not very much sensitivity
towards the subject, as I did not mention the possibility that I may be
myself. (I was fairly certain she would be upset if I did, as she
basically said that my friends were being blinded by Satan along with my
friends planting seeds of Satan's lies in my head, even if
unintentionally.) I had told her the small parts of the argument that I
knew, such as people in medieval times who were tortured would not have
'chosen' to willingly be tortured, possibility of mistranslation, but I
didn't have a solid source, and she had the Bible and 'the dangers of
homosexual sex'. After, she told me to do some
research, probably hoping I would find articles about how it is wrong and
dangerous. And I did. But along with them, I found in Rev. Mel White's article here and many of the strong points that I need to possibly get my
leader to understand.

And today, I am planning on bringing said article, or part of it at least, to see what she says. Wish me luck!

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There are 31,173 verses in the Bible. I disagree with 6 or 7 of them in particular, or rather, how people have decided to interpret them. Therefore, I disagree with 0.0002% of the Bible. That’s 1/5000th. Can you accept that? ~Snuffy

[Rick336]

In other words, your youth leader says that an evil monster that we can't see or hear lurks among us and gets inside our brains to control our thoughts and desires.

Here are some questions that you might consider asking your youth leader:

1. Where exactly is Satan?
2. Where does Satan live?
3. What does Satan look like?
4. What does Satan sound like?
5. Has anyone ever seen Satan?
6. What empirical evidence do you have that an evil, invisible monster exists?
7. What empirical evidence do you have that an evil, invisible monster can invade our thoughts and control our behavior?
8. Does this evil, invisible monster follow us everywhere we go? Does he float in the air? How does he move about?
9. Where in the Bible does it say that an invisible, evil monster controls the thoughts of homosexuals?
10. What does science say about the existence of an evil, invisible monster?
11. What do psychologists say about the existence of an evil, invisible monster?
12. What does neurobiology say about the belief in an evil, invisible monster?


If your youth leader can't provide you with empirical, trustworthy evidence that this evil, invisible monster truly exists then you may want to suggest that his thinking is extremely childish and that he is suffering from delusion. You may suggest that he seek counseling and some serious self-analysis.



Rick

[Snuffy]

Well, I thank you for your support, but I do believe that Satan exists and can cause issues etc. But unfortunately, your message got to me after I spoke with her, and it did not go over so well. She said that I could try to rationalize all I want, but it is still wrong, and she confronted me about possibly being a lesbian myself. I told her the truth and after a bit of discussion, she said that she could see that I was set in my mindset and that she could also see that I was being blinded by Satan. It turned into sort of a bad debate. When I made a point or asked a question she couldn't really answer, she changed the subject, though slightly subtle. Also, she said that by going lesbian, I am insulting God by choosing 'second best' because he 'has the perfect man for me' *headdesk* And she is praying for me.

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There are 31,173 verses in the Bible. I disagree with 6 or 7 of them in particular, or rather, how people have decided to interpret them. Therefore, I disagree with 0.0002% of the Bible. That’s 1/5000th. Can you accept that? ~Snuffy

[Gennee]

Snuffy, like you I believe that Satan is real and does exist. I also know tht God does not condemn us because of our sexuality or gender. If God doesn't condemn you then what she says or believes doesn't really matter. It's tough to try to convince them that God accepts you as you are.

Gennee

[Pablo Rafael]

Homophobic people always say that we are trying to "rationalize" or "justify" our position instead of believing what the Bible says. They never see themselves as justifying their misinterpretation of Scripture.

Since you are female, it is very easy for you to refute any Bible passage thrown at you. There are some passages that can be misinterpreted to say that being a gay man is against God's will, but they are all strictly male only. The only passage that can even remotely pertain to lesbians is in Romans One where Paul says, (about unbelievers who gave themselves over to idolatry) "Even their women exchanged natural relations with unnatural ones." It doesn't even mention what "unnatural" is. And it talks about women who gave up what was natural to them. If you are a lesbian, your attraction to other women is totally natural for you. To try to enter in a relationship with a man would be unnatural. A person who believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible will have to weasel around to get it to say that being lesbian is unnatural. It does not say that. There isn't another verse that can be used to condemn lesbian relationships, none.

We guys have it a little harder, but not much.

Psychological and other scientific evidence is increasingly showing that same-sex attraction is totally natural among humans and in the animal kingdom.

A person who believes that we gays are "blinded by Satan" should be asked how she/he knows that we are the ones blinded by Satan and not the other way around. Is the person willing to admit that they may be wrong in their understanding or are they certain that they are right? If you are with a person who is willing to pray with you, right then would be a good time to enter into prayer and ask that the Holy Spirit would lead each one of you to the truth, and give you humility to listen to the Holy Spirit's leading.

And the "one man - one woman" argument always comes up. But that phrase is not Biblical. Just mentioning the numerous Old Testament stories where God blessed polygamous marriages does away with that. If the argument then progresses into "that was just in Old Testament times, not now", I find I can always say, "So we need to interpret the Bible in the historical context in which it was written?" That shoots the whole literal interpretation idea because looking at the few New Testament clobber verses shows that Paul was absolutely not talking about loving same-sex attraction or relationships.

"God's will is for a man and a woman to be together" Again nowhere in the Bible does it say that is the only way. And what about people called to celibacy?

Anywhow enough rambling from me. I am getting on a rant. The same tired old, non-scriptural arguments always come up. They are so easy to refute and clarify.

I pray that all goes well for you. Enjoy being what God made you to be.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Snuffy]

Thank you all so much for your input. I find it very upsetting that the people of my church preach over and over the importance of love and acceptance, but they frown upon it in that Christian-ly I-don't-hate-you-you're-just-wrong-and-I-should-fix-you sort of way. And what makes it so difficult is that there is sometimes not much sensitivity towards the subject when I spoke to my youth leader. (As you could probably guess, because what's more blunt than, 'Your friends are planting seeds of Satan's lies in your brain and you are being blinded by Satan.'?) And I have pretty chronic low self-esteem, and so being rejected in the Christian-ly We-still-love-you-we-just-want-you-to-change-who-you-are sort of way for who I might be doesn't really help. And what makes it thornier is that I am one of the people who I guess has a 'choice', but it's not really, 'I want to be a lesbian' as much as the fact that I have had some bad experiences with boys, and therefore shy away from them. And because of this, my leader is praying that God heals the wounds of my heart, (and probably in turn, lead me back to boys). And since it is more of a 'choice', they probably think they are more justified in trying to change me as I was technically born heterosexual. Oh, and Pablo, I tried explaining my reasoning to her, often relevant to or quoting the Bible, but she was solid in her belief. I feel a bit stubborn for not being willing to change my beliefs, but the church is sort of the one imposing for change, while I just want acceptance. And it's really nice finding a group of Christians who really don't judge me. It's just frustrating the hypocrisy that my church has, and how closed-minded they are being. And I know this wasn't her intent, but my leader has me feeling guilty about the possibility of being bisexual or lesbian, and said that she doesn't want to see that when I'm at the gates of heaven, Jesus saying that I turned away from him and that I didn't love him. And really, I know my leader has good intentions with her concern and praying but to me, prayer for 'fixing' homosexuality seems akin to someone going up to a black person and saying 'Oh you poor child! I'll be praying that God fixes you!' *ends neurotic rant* ... For now XD I'll probably be back in about an hour if someone else posts or I remember something I wanted to vent about. Again, thank you all for being so considerate and patient~


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There are 31,173 verses in the Bible. I disagree with 6 or 7 of them in particular, or rather, how people have decided to interpret them. Therefore, I disagree with 0.0002% of the Bible. That’s 1/5000th. Can you accept that? ~Snuffy

[antiochian]

It sounds to me like the youth leader doesn't know squat about human sexuality, and certainly nothing about homo/bisexuality. Are those gay men who stayed with and cared for partners dying of AIDS "blinded by Satan?" Are the many LGBT persons throughout history who have given us works of art, literature, and made other contributions blinded by Satan? Are people like Judy Shepard, who watched her son die because two men beat his head in, and now speaks publicly about erasing hatred towards those who are different blinded by Satan? Are the LGBT organists, pastors, theologians, worship leaders and others who have served their churches and ministered to people just as faithfully as anyone else also blinded by Satan?

Being gay/bi/lesbian is about who and how we love. Is love of Satan?

Sounds like you handled the situation well. Good luck in future conversations!

[Gennee]

The first sentence in your last post speaks volumes. How God works in a person is between the person and God. God created you as a lesbian and that is wonderful. He created me as a transgender person. Why is it that some try to fix us because tey cannot accept that we're different and unique? Noting wrong with that at all.

LGBT people have created and achieved much throughout the centuries. I wonder what would happen if I pointed out in the bible that there are many eunuchs throughout the bible? And I believe wholeheartedly that there were many same-sex couples who did mighty things.

Gennee

[bnmoore]

"I was born okay the first time" is more than a bumper sticker. It's true. Be renewed by the transforming of your mind. You can read the Beatitudes and apply them to your current circumstances. You may very well have to pray in secret.

Reading Max Ehrmann's "Desiderata" can be uplifting.

[Daniel]

Like everyone else, can be blinded- not by satan, but by their own ignorance.

You are right Snuffy- there is a gap between what the church and those in it say and what they do. In a perfect world, there would be more action and less talk. More love and less condemnation.

Antiochian has made perhaps the most important point. Your youth 'leader' is not displaying even a basic knowledge about human sexuality. It's as though the 19th and 20th and 21st centuries didn't happen. This is flat world thinking! As well, neither belief in God or the Devil is necessary for treating one another with kindness.

You don't have to debate those who are less educated that you. In fact, that isn't a debate at all, but something or an argument.

Doesn't matter if you are gay, straight, blue or green- you deserve the respect and kindness accorded to every living being.

Stand tall sister.

[Spacemanatee]

Know that when history looks back at this, that YOU, Snuffy, are at the right side of the argument.

[merlin2921]

Oh, honey, I wish I could give you a hug. I so understand. (I came out as a church leader, and it wasn't what you'd call well received.) It's hard. Know that there are understanding and accepting Christians (and churches) out there, and you will find them if you keep looking.

Blessings.

[Saru]

My mom says the exact same thing... I do believe satan can lie to you, I once thought God wanted me dead, because I was gay, which led to numerous suicide attempts (for some reason none of them were successful) and I realized it really was a lie of Satan, and God still loved me.

[Daniel]

Just asking here.

Why are so many of us prone to project our worst fears onto an outside force?

Why not just own up to the what we can know without the projection? That we are having the thoughts we are having while we are having them. As such, WE are responsible for them.

This site is devoted to non-violent change. The motto is "be the change you seek" not 'the devil made me do it, think it, or eat it.'

Bottom line here is this: with or without god, flesh or the devil, we each can choose to live better lives, and change those things about ourselves which are not compassionate and loving. I mean, that's what it's all about isn't it?

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Just asking here.

Why are so many of us prone to project our worst fears onto an outside force?

Why not just own up to the what we can know without the projection? That we are having the thoughts we are having while we are having them. As such, WE are responsible for them.

This site is devoted to non-violent change. The motto is "be the change you seek" not 'the devil made me do it, think it, or eat it.'

Bottom line here is this: with or without god, flesh or the devil, we each can choose to live better lives, and change those things about ourselves which are not compassionate and loving. I mean, that's what it's all about isn't it?

Rick

[bnmoore]

Sweet!

I may not say it often enough. Daniel and Rick you guys are both awesome. There are many others here as well. Props to everybody.

[Snuffy]

*happytear* You guys are all so supportive <3 I really didn't get far with my youth leader, and things didn't work out with the girl I liked. She has a boyfriend now (irony. Also, my youth leader thought it was a bit funny, in the ironic sense >.>) but we're still friends. And as I said before, I'm not so sure I'm lesbian or bisexual (one of my friends said I'm 'pansexual' because I love regardless of gender?) but my neurosis is sort of flashing towards insanity, like fits of laughter when I'm crying, hysteria, etc. I don't know, I think I'm just getting impatient waiting for someone to care about me romantically... *end TMI rant?* Sorry I'm laying all my random issues on you guys... ^_^;

[BrianB]

Originally Posted by Snuffy

*happytear* You guys are all so supportive <3 I really didn't get far with my youth leader, and things didn't work out with the girl I liked. She has a boyfriend now (irony. Also, my youth leader thought it was a bit funny, in the ironic sense >.>) but we're still friends. And as I said before, I'm not so sure I'm lesbian or bisexual (one of my friends said I'm 'pansexual' because I love regardless of gender?) but my neurosis is sort of flashing towards insanity, like fits of laughter when I'm crying, hysteria, etc. I don't know, I think I'm just getting impatient waiting for someone to care about me romantically... *end TMI rant?* Sorry I'm laying all my random issues on you guys... ^_^;

It's hard to find someone to talk with about this stuff. The folks here are very patient with someone that is sorting things out. I know from personal experience. I tried using the label pansexual for myself. It's a good description for me but people understand bisexual better. If I'm attracted to a person it doesn't matter what plumbing they have. As for your youth leader just pray for God's best in their life. Maybe you could suggest they pray that for you too. That is how me and my mom ended up. She was very upset about my coming out as bi' but we could both pray that prayer.

[Snuffy]

Originally Posted by BrianB

As for your youth leader just pray for God's best in their life. Maybe you could suggest they pray that for you too. That is how me and my mom ended up. She was very upset about my coming out as bi' but we could both pray that prayer.

*hug* Thank you. Seriously, for your patience. All of you

That's actually quite ironic as well. She prays frequently for me to have 'God's best', but I don't appreciate that she insists that for me, God's best would be a boy.

And I'm not really sure if I'm just a wimp or if it's God trying to tell me something, but very soon after considering that I, myself might be gay, I have gone through a lot of emotional turmoil. And it hasn't even been from harassment. It's been mostly since finding out my youth leader didn't approve, that went hand in hand with distancing myself slowly from God. And it's possible it is just coincidence, but since having a crush on a girl, I've been even more mentally unstable because of feeling like I'm rejected from both sides.

[BruceChris]

In the Old Testament, it was mostly about rules, laws, and God's Judgment. The New Testament is mostly about love and forgiveness. Learning how to love yourself, and love others.

It is not so much about how much God had grown, as about how much our understanding of God, and of ourselves has grown.

More and more we are learning that sexual orientation is something that we are born with. Many people would say the God created us that way.

There are so many people who believe that whom we are attracted to is a choice. Of course, most of these people are straight, and have never questioned who they are attracted to. The truth is, before puberty, most of us aren't attracted to much of anybody, and boys play with boys, and girls with girls.

It would be good for you to be able to talk to LGBT people, but that is much easier to do in a big city. Good luck,

BruceChris